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RE: The question to ask about The Italians

 
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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 3:28:04 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Compare to Russia. And, actually, the Spanish army is so thin, it's doubtful they could do the bridge-blowing that occurs in most campaigns. Rails will be repaired and bridges rebuilt or pontooned. (And Spain seems sort of dry to me).

warspite1

Who gives a damn about not being able to blow bridges if the bridges can't take heavy loads anyway? But certainly interesting that the Spanish don't know how to blow bridges now.


They can't blow bridges if they aren't there. The Spanish units are in a peacetime deployment. They don't have units sitting on the bridges. So, a lot of the bridges near the border will fall into German hands intact.

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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 3:32:50 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

They rested and refitted after the Fall of France because they could - no other reason. If France had lasted longer, they would have carried on as long as it took. Take Barbarossa: continuous combat from late June to the end of October, with perhaps four weeks stopped. Take the Allies in France in 1944: From early June to the end of September before any pause. There is no requirement to rest entire divisions because tanks need repair. You just pull individual tanks out of the line, service them, and send them on to catch up once they're back in condition.

warspite1

We've covered this. No one is denying that sometimes (in fact very often) units are kept in the field too long out of necessity - because circumstances dictate. That doesn't make it right and not something an army chooses to do for obvious reasons, and no one chooses to start a whole new campaign with understrength, tired units.....


Circumstances will dictate for Spain too. And, as I've said before, there will be a standard distribution of fatigue in the German units. Those that are freshest can be used in Spain. Those that have seen the heaviest action will form the deception on the Channel.


Since the British would know this, they would logically conclude that there is less of a chance of an invasion. But then again, the panzers would be located on the Channel and the units from the Siegfried Line would then invade Spain. I am sure that the Germans put their best units into the Siegfried Line.

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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 752
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 3:35:33 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

It works both ways yes, but the Germans would be stronger since the Greeks are beating the Italians who won't fight their way out of a wet paper bag!


Doesn't matter if they are stronger if they can't enter hills!

quote:

Yup. Just because a tank can make it does not mean that a heavily loaded truck can.


Those armored units had artillery - towed by heavily loaded trucks.

quote:

Are you sure? In Spain and Turkey, the Germans would have to cross mountains and not follow river valleys.

In Yugoslavia and Greece, the Germans later fight against Partisans to such an extend that they could not control large parts of the country. Even Hitler realized that.


First of all, your claim that the Germans somehow avoided the hills in Yugoslavia and Greece is rubbish. Second, the Germans would have even more latitude in path choice in those countries than in Greece, due to the much broader frontage available.

The Italians would garrison Spain, and sufficient garrison forces suppress partisan activities.

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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 3:40:24 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Circumstances will dictate for Spain too. And, as I've said before, there will be a standard distribution of fatigue in the German units. Those that are freshest can be used in Spain. Those that have seen the heaviest action will form the deception on the Channel.


Since the British would know this, they would logically conclude that there is less of a chance of an invasion. But then again, the panzers would be located on the Channel and the units from the Siegfried Line would then invade Spain. I am sure that the Germans put their best units into the Siegfried Line.


There would still be far more than an army group staring at them across the Channel.

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Post #: 754
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 3:44:30 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

It works both ways yes, but the Germans would be stronger since the Greeks are beating the Italians who won't fight their way out of a wet paper bag!


Doesn't matter if they are stronger if they can't enter hills!

quote:

Yup. Just because a tank can make it does not mean that a heavily loaded truck can.


Those armored units had artillery - towed by heavily loaded trucks.

quote:

Are you sure? In Spain and Turkey, the Germans would have to cross mountains and not follow river valleys.

In Yugoslavia and Greece, the Germans later fight against Partisans to such an extend that they could not control large parts of the country. Even Hitler realized that.


First of all, your claim that the Germans somehow avoided the hills in Yugoslavia and Greece is rubbish. Second, the Germans would have even more latitude in path choice in those countries than in Greece, due to the much broader frontage available.

The Italians would garrison Spain, and sufficient garrison forces suppress partisan activities.


If the Germans attacked Spain, there would be a very small frontage. Maqquis would be attacking their supply lines, including those in France.

Why would Italy even garrison Spain? They would get nothing from that! No glory, only dead bodies.

The Germans attacked along the river valleys because that is where the good roads are. The good roads are not going over Hills then through the Dales. Good roads are on the flat lands. The hills are better defensive terrain, often with trees, that is not good for tanks. Anti-tank guns are not needed against tanks, even turpentine will work.

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Post #: 755
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 3:55:07 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Circumstances will dictate for Spain too. And, as I've said before, there will be a standard distribution of fatigue in the German units. Those that are freshest can be used in Spain. Those that have seen the heaviest action will form the deception on the Channel.


Since the British would know this, they would logically conclude that there is less of a chance of an invasion. But then again, the panzers would be located on the Channel and the units from the Siegfried Line would then invade Spain. I am sure that the Germans put their best units into the Siegfried Line.


There would still be far more than an army group staring at them across the Channel.


They could stare all they wanted to, those stares would not frighten the British. In fact, with the Luftwaffe marching around with signs and yelling, the RAF would then be attacking not only the marchers but they could/would also be able to attack those rude individuals just staring at them. Heck, even the Royal Navy would get into the act by shelling them.

BTW, do they let you write with something other than crayons? Those are nice and blunt.

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Post #: 756
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 3:59:20 PM   
Zovs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

There would still be far more than an army group staring at them across the Channel.


This is totally false. The Germans barely had enough transports for two divisions. Your Army Group Fantasy moving across the channel is absurd on so many levels.

These kinds of posts from you Bob (aka Curtis) makes you look like a fool and that you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Then you have other posts that are twisting what others write and putting words that they did not say into their mouths, those kind of posts give you even less credit.



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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 4:08:58 PM   
warspite1


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I would like to register (formally) my total disgust at the way Zovs has conducted himself today.

Zovs you should know better, this thread is for pithy one-liners that say "I am right" without any need for the usual things one might expect like evidence in support of a position.

There is just no place for writing posts like those you did today that actually show you putting effort into the debate.



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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 4:50:39 PM   
Zovs


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Warspite1 you are most welcome for my disgusting posts with information for mental processing.

I will not wavier from my quest to gain more knowledge and share and contribute as best I can at the expense of, ehr, pithy one-liners.

Your truly, rebellious from birth and country

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Post #: 759
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 4:55:28 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

BTW: A question for Curtis Lemay and Zovs. In the SPI game, was there any special rules/requirements around the rail bridge at Irun?



Could you remind me where/what country Irun is in?

warspite1

Irun is in Spain. The reason I mentioned it is that Curtis Lemay believes that because his scenario has been "war gamed" it proves it would have worked.

Clearly to make a case like that, any game would need to be incredibly detailed. Which is why I assumed there must have been mention of Irun in the game. Given the lack of rail lines, the rail bridge at Irun was of massive importance to the Germans. Firstly, the Germans were very concerned about it as they weren't sure it was going to hold up due to the state of repair. But secondly, they were so worried about it being bombed that they provided numerous AA batteries and coastal batteries (they feared naval bombardment as the line is on the coast) to help with its defence.

Obviously Curtis Lemay is making the point that this is a very realistic game and so I am assuming the British player can bomb the line and the Royal Navy can shell the line? I am assuming the Germans need to keep 3 batteries of AA and an engineer unit at the bridge at all times? Presumably the attack on Spain can't start until the coastal batteries are in place?








< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/22/2020 4:57:12 PM >


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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:00:44 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

You can drop some 2-5 Para regiments on Gibraltar, to help the odds....

warspite1

Well that's a bit of a downer in the massively-realistic-game-that-proves-a-Med-first-strategy-would-definitely-work dept.

The Germans ruled out ANY possibility of para or glider troops against Gibraltar because of the terrain but also the winds caused by the rock formation.....


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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:06:13 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I have a 4k monitor, and I use imgur to post images, so I had to scale down the first image, but if you look closely enough you can see the one hex leading into Gibraltar.


Gibraltar:


CRT4:

warspite1

Well I'm not a military man but the description of the way the Germans were going to deal with Gibraltar in the Burdick book certainly makes me believe they would have taken it ultimately. Even for Felix i.e. a friendly Spain and no fighting just to get to Gib, the Germans were going to put soooo much artillery and air assets in play, that one would have to assume the Rock would fall.

Having laid down such a carpet of fire, I wouldn't expect the naval dockyard to be available for use by the Italians or Germans anytime soon though.....


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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:09:16 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Last note on this, but if you look at the map, you'll see Algeciras (Minor port) and Tangier (Major port) two hexes to the west, and there are special rules for who controls Gibraltar. If the CW control it then the Italians can't enter the Western Med., even if the Axis captured both of those ports (note also that you can't cross from Algeciras by land to Tangier).

The rules enforce that who controls Gibraltar controls access to the Western Med and into the Atlantic from this area (i.e. the screen shot above).
warspite1

Yes, its obvious to anyone that one would need both sides of the Straits to truly be able to traverse from the Med to the Atlantic without fear of mines, coastal batteries, aircraft etc. That is why - despite the unsubstantiated verbiage that Curtis Lemay comes out with, Hitler was going to order an armoured and motorised division into Spanish Morocco - and why there would always need to be a German garrison of some description there.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/22/2020 5:10:07 PM >


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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:11:57 PM   
Zovs


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Warspite,

I may have been mistaken on the para drop on Gibraltar, it is a mountain hex and IIRC you can't para or amph into mountains.

CWIE2/WIE is a detailed Strategic/Operational Level war game. Each turn is a week, but there are 13 cycles in a year with 4 turns per cycle, each cycle is a production phase. Each hex is around 16-20 miles (I forgot, might be 32) per hex.

The game Europa is much much more detailed then WIE. It is 16 miles per hex, has armor effects capabilities, many chrome rules and the maps are very detailed (not as flashy as some of the modern board games now, but very functional) and some of the terrain in Spain and Turkey is insane if you weill.

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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:15:30 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Some other food for thought.

Okay I am pulling these out of the design notes of a board war game series that started back in the mid-to-late 1970's and continued on till the nineties. The game company in question this time is GDW (which later changed to GR/D) and the game series is the Europa series.

I'll start with the Spain and Portugal module (just hoping these will add insight or further usefulness to the conversation and I am not Mr. Astell and not advocating one point above another just sharing some info for discussion:


Spain: The effects of the Spanish Civil War influenced the development of Spain's armed forces during World War II. The Civil War greatly damaged the Spanish economy, and Spain experienced serious food shortages in the immediate post-Civil War years. The result of this was that the Spanish armed forces, while not neglected, were not substantially expanded or modernized, as rebuilding the economy was a much more important goal of the Spanish government.

Much of Spain's military equipment had to be used throughout the entire World War II period, even though most of it was obsolete or worn-out by 1939/40. The domestic industry simply couldn't supply the armed forces with sufficient modern equipment. Furthermore, Spain had few foreign sources of equipment. Germany — pro-Fascist Spain's logical supplier — needed its pro duction for its own and its fighting allies' war needs. Further- more, Spain's consistent refusal to join the Axis or to allow German troops to attack Gibraltar from Spanish soil resulted in somewhat strained relations between Germany and Spain. Thus, Germany was unwilling to supply Spain with much military equipment, allowing only token aid (some tanks and assault guns, a few aircraft, some aircraft manufacturing licenses).

Army: In the early war period, Spain officially had three mountain divisions: the 42nd, 43rd, and 52nd. However, there were sufficient mountain troops available for the equivalent of only one division. Accordingly, I showed the 43rd as a mountain division (since it had more mountain troops than the other two) and the 42nd and 52nd as infantry divisions.

The three regiments of the Spanish Foreign Legion were actually organic elements of divisions in Spanish Morocco (the 1st was in the 101st Division, the 2nd in the 93rd, and the 3rd in the 92nd). However, there were three independent Army infantry regiments (the 74th, 75th, and 76th) stationed in Morocco. Since I wanted to show the Legion directly, I arbitrarily swapped the Legion regiments with the Army regiments. By the way, the Spanish Foreign Legion, unlike its French counterpart, had very few foreigners in it (around 10%, with the rest being Spanish).

In the mid-to late-war period, the Spanish Army went through several reorganizations. A reorganization not shown in the module was the renumbering of almost all the regiments in the Army. Since the renumbering did not reflect any change in actual organization or capabilities, I saw no need to include the extra counters required to show this reorganization.

Air Force: The German foreign-aid air units are included for flexibility in Europa. While Germany actually did supply a few aircraft of the models shown, there weren't enough delivered to rate a counter. Almost enough Me 109Gs were supplied to deserve a counter, except that Germany neglected to include engines with them. Spain also obtained a license to manufacture Me 109G airframes but was unable to get engines from Germany. After much work, a Spanish aircraft engine was fitted to the airframe, with the result being the HA-1109.

Portugal: The light infantry regiments are composite units of independent battalions, and their unit IDs are the military region numbers where they are located. The cavalry brigades are sup ported because I factored independent artillery assets into the brigades.

Battle for Spain Scenario: The scenario is based on a hypothetical situation: what if Germany's strategy for 1941 was the defeat of Britain, rather than the invasion of the USSR. Although threatening to invade Britain itself would be part of the strategy, the likelihood of success against a stronger (than in 1940) RAF, Royal Navy, and British Army seems rather remote, - leaving the "Mediterranean Option" as Germany's most probable route to success. In essence, Germany would try to eliminate British presence in the Mediterranean (Gibraltar, Malta, and Cyprus), North Africa (Egypt and Libya), the Balkans (Greece), and the Near East (Palestine, Transjordan, and Iraq). Also, a large eastern garrison would be needed to guard against any Soviet moves, as a German incursion into the Near East would certainly increase tension between Germany and the Soviet Union. In this sequence, I assumed that an attack on Turkey would be necessary. A German attack on the Near East is hardly credible without passage of German troops and supplies through Turkey, and Turkey probably wouldn't permit this.

Similarly, Spain wouldn't allow Germany passage through Spanish territory for an attack on Gibraltar. Unlike speculation on Turkey's actions in such a situation, the actual historical record on Spain's intention is clear. Throughout late 1940 and early 1941, Germany repeatedly tried to get Spain to enter the war or to allow German troops to attack Gibraltar. In response, Spain stated its sympathy for the Axis cause but always refused the German requests. Fortunately for Spain, Germany's interest on these topics lessened as the planning for the invasion of the USSR grew. However, in the hypothetical situation outlined above, Spanish refusal would prompt German invasion. The Battle for Spain scenario examines this situation.

Scenario Rules: The Spanish preparedness rule shows the unlikeliness that Spain would be caught by strategic surprise. With months of German diplomatic pressure and German troops concentrating on the French-Spanish border, Spain would react.

At least, Spain would see the German preparations as a bluff to force Spain to Germany's will and would order partial mobilization as a counter bluff. By the way, although I assume Germany doesn't achieve strategic surprise, I do posit that the Germans achieve operational surprise. This is why the Germans receive the surprise turn on turn 1.

The rules on Portugal try to balance Portugal's traditional pro-British policy with Portugal's desire not to go too far and thus incur a German invasion. While I think that Portugal in actuality would have maintained strict neutrality in the event of a German invasion of Spain, Germany wouldn't be sure of this. Thus, the Portugal rules inject some uncertainty here, so that the German player won't be sure of Portugal's intentions.

The victory conditions reflect the fact that Germany must try to win the campaign quickly. With the war constantly expanding in 1941 (with operations in North Africa, the Balkans, the Near East, possibly against Great Britain, and possibly against a Soviet attack), a long-term campaign in Spain is against Germany's interests and would divert resources needed elsewhere.
—John M. Astell

warspite1

And this again reflects what I've read. I think what the above makes clear is that the Spanish Army was er... not the best! But equally, I've read that Franco started to reinforce the border area.

End of the day, the Germans will defeat the Spanish and I don't think anyone doubts that. But that has never been the point. It's the price that Germany has to pay that is the issue.




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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:22:07 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Curtis Lemay it's a game map! What is clearly possible can't be found definitively in a game map.


No it is not. It is a map from Wikipedia. See my post #675.
warspite1

I was talking about the map you originally showed. But the Wiki map serves just as well. It doesn't matter what is on that map. The Germans didn't travel to the Greco-Albanian border according to what you presented. But I am not going to waste any more time on this.

So I provide a military study that sets out the problems for the Greeks facing the Italians (if Salonika is taken). This is a study written by professionals in the US military.

You provide a game map and a map from Wiki that you say PROVES that Athens was a viable supply point for those Greek troops in the northeast.

I have no idea where you are coming from and I have nothing more to add on this, other than you've done yourself no favours whatsoever.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/22/2020 7:38:24 PM >


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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:24:35 PM   
Zovs


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The thing that Bob overlooks and refuses to even have a normal conversation on is: Despite war games being fun and informative, the vast majority of them are 2 player games, there are some exceptions like WIE where 3 players can play that game (unofficial, players can and do make teams, with one side the US and say France, one the CW, one the Soviets, one the Germans and minor axis allies, and one the Italians, sometimes if they had another he/she could take the Axis minors), or WiF which can have a lot of folks playing and in reality and historically, the Leaders of these countries we wargame with had their own personalities, intents, interests and goals.

With that said, reading through a lot of WWII documentation shows that Italy's sphere was the Balkans and North Africa and he screwed that up so back that it force Hitler (I would say grudgingly) to bail Mussolini out by sending Rommel to NA and invading Yugoslavia and then Greece.

I also think what Bob overlooks, underplays or completely does not understand is that France, Yugoslavia and Greece were not planned the way they came out. Add to this is the year 1938 when Austria gave into Hitler. These things all reinforced in an evil dictators mind how right he was (megalomaniac?).

Lastly, Hitler from the very beginning always always wanted to invade and occupy Russia. Hitler's hatred of communism and his thinking that all Russians (or Slavic people, one part of my ancestry) were sub humans and Russia was always his prime goal.

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(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 767
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:29:57 PM   
warspite1


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Ignore. Answered later.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/23/2020 5:28:31 AM >


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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:32:07 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Clearly, Hitler didn't agree that it was Mussolini's sphere of influence.

warspite1

Thank-you for proving my point. We are getting somewhere at last. Yes, exactly, Hitler would tell Mussolini what he wanted the Italian to know, regardless of whether his decisions directly affected Mussolini.


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Post #: 769
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:37:05 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The Italians will be needed to help garrison Spain. Also, they need to be warned that a risky strike at the Pyramids from Libya is unnecessary.

warspite1

And there you have it. Your debating style in a nutshell. You've been told, at great length, why it is highly unlikely Mussolini would agree to any such thing. You've been provided with quotes by the key players and historical examples.

Your response?

Curtis Lemay: I am ignoring you, I am going to repeat the same thing I've been churning out for pages - and I'm not going to provide a scrap of evidence in support of my position or even give you the courtesy of why I believe your evidence is wrong. But then I don't have to, I'm Curtis Lemay and I'm always right.


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Post #: 770
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:41:17 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Another aspect of the “staff study” that suspends disbelief – perhaps the biggest – is that Hitler would even consider attacking Spain. Many have commented on this thread that they simply don’t believe Hitler would have considered this. German Military Strategy and Spain in World War II (Burdick) brings this into focus. I won’t repeat the reasons why such a move would have been so difficult for Hitler to have ordered. These have been outlined numerous times and, let’s face it, are pretty obvious.

There was one reason that I considered that Hitler might just have thrown all those arguments out of the window and just ordered the operation anyway. I have kept in mind that in making this decision, Barbarossa would be postponed (which is another massive leap but again let’s suspend disbelief and just go with that too).

Hitler was not a man who liked to be said no to, and it could be argued that he was particularly aggrieved at Franco’s stance. Why? Well, German blood helped to install Franco in the first place and Franco, in refusing, was simply being ungrateful and unreasonable.

Okay…. but what could tip Hitler over the edge? Well in addition to the above, by late September, when Hitler was actually sold on the need for taking Gibraltar, there was also the following to consider:

- Hitler had seen the summer months of 1940 wasted following the armistice with France.
- Hitler’s dream of bringing the UK to heel were dashed
- Worse, in being dashed, the Luftwaffe had been severely mauled
- The Kriegsmarine had been severely mauled in Norway
- Mussolini had declared war and Hitler expected this announcement to be followed by a surprise attack on Corsica or Malta…. but instead, Mussolini’s forces had done..... nothing, other than a recent march over the border into Egypt, whereupon they set up camp.

So, added to Franco’s ungratefulness we have Hitler who is now in a very bad mood about how things are not panning out. As we enter the New Year and move into January and February, Franco is still stalling - despite making positive noises - and to add to the above:

- The Battle of Britain has been a bit of a disaster
- The Italian attack on Greece has failed – and indeed they are in danger of losing Albania!
- Part of the Italian fleet has been crippled at Taranto
- The Italians have suffered defeat after defeat and have been pushed back out of Egypt, out of Cyrenaica and back into Tripolitania.
- Hitler has already had to send the first of two divisions to Libya to stop a complete collapse.

Finally Hitler snaps, gets real and admits that Germany can’t possibly open up a second front with the USSR with all this going on. Incensed by everything going wrong, Hitler postpones Barbarossa, and the attack on Spain happens in the Spring of 1941.

Again, this is just a suggestion to make the scenario work and not my personal opinion of what was possible.

What the book makes clear are the tortured back and forwards between Franco and Hitler. I hadn’t realised that the Germans had not only selected the forces and commanders (this I knew from various war games), but that the assault forces had actually undergone specific training (at locations that best mirrored the target). There was also extensive intelligence, reconnaissance and survey work carried out, not only targeting Gibraltar, but also the state of Spain’s infrastructure and how difficult it was going to be to get down to Gibraltar – even in the non-hostile environment envisaged.


I don't think it takes much foresight for the Germans to realize, right from the start, that they don't have realistic chances to get across the Channel. So, a staff study that has a good alternate should have had real chances to be adopted.
warspite1

Goering was supremely confident that he would destroy the RAF in weeks (4 days!!) and in that event, he felt there would be no need for a Sea Lion.

Despite what you've been told, you still cling onto the idea that no one had suggested a Med strategy to Hitler at any point? But regardless, that misses the entire point. It wasn't a "good alternate" because we know Hitler was not in the least interested in attacking Spain. We know Hitler wasn't in the least interested in putting off Barbarossa - both would have to happen in your scenario. Therefore in Hitler's eyes it wasn't a "good alternate" and has no chance of being adopted.


I disagree for the reasons I listed above.
warspite1

So I list out the situation that faced Hitler and why, its fair to say he would have been pretty ***** at Franco and Spain - I mean all the benefits of this guy's incredible victory against France are disappearing down the toilet and all because of one man.

AND STILL HITLER DIDN'T ATTACK SPAIN.

But you disagree right? So there we have it. Great value add as always.


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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 771
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:43:08 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

You keep repeating this nonsense. Japan and Italy are not working for Germany's benefit. Rather, what constitutes their benefit is impacted by Germany's actions. Postponing Barbarossa changes Japan's best course of action. Adopting a Med Strategy changes Italy's best course of action.

warspite1

Not interested in discussing Japan until we can find a way to get past 1940.

Correct!!!!! Italy was NOT working for Germany's benefit. Sadly though, your scenario has Italy doing just that.


No it doesn't. Their interests are modified by German adoption of a Med Strategy.
warspite1

Part II

And there you have it. Your debating style in a nutshell. You've been told, at great length, why it is highly unlikely Mussolini would agree to any such thing. You've been provided with quotes by the key players and historical examples.

Your response?

Curtis Lemay: I am ignoring you, I am going to repeat the same thing I've been churning out for pages - and I'm not going to provide a scrap of evidence in support of my position or even give you the courtesy of why I believe your evidence is wrong. But then I don't have to, I'm Curtis Lemay and I'm always right.





_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 772
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:46:34 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

They rested and refitted after the Fall of France because they could - no other reason. If France had lasted longer, they would have carried on as long as it took. Take Barbarossa: continuous combat from late June to the end of October, with perhaps four weeks stopped. Take the Allies in France in 1944: From early June to the end of September before any pause. There is no requirement to rest entire divisions because tanks need repair. You just pull individual tanks out of the line, service them, and send them on to catch up once they're back in condition.

warspite1

We've covered this. No one is denying that sometimes (in fact very often) units are kept in the field too long out of necessity - because circumstances dictate. That doesn't make it right and not something an army chooses to do for obvious reasons, and no one chooses to start a whole new campaign with understrength, tired units.....


Circumstances will dictate for Spain too. And, as I've said before, there will be a standard distribution of fatigue in the German units. Those that are freshest can be used in Spain. Those that have seen the heaviest action will form the deception on the Channel.
warspite1

Not at all. They will all be fresh. The time it will take to deal with the political/diplomatic aspects, the training of the Kuebler's XLIX Corps and the intelligence work on the Rock - this operation won't be ready until late 1940 at the earliest.


_____________________________

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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 773
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:50:59 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No, they won't be doing anything at a leisurely pace and no, there was a rush. To suggest otherwise is to fail to understand the German situation in the whole war. This campaign isn't happening before September, they don't know how long Spain will take, and they don't know how long the second prong will take. If we are to believe Hitler has put off Barbarossa in 1941 he sure as hell isn't going to countenance a second delay. Not to mention he doesn't know Stalin isn't going to attack Germany.


There will be a rush to get Spain done - which will start long before September. But not Gibraltar.
warspite1

Well clearly that must be right because you've said it. I would like to thank you for the great effort you put into that comment - the supporting evidence was voluminous - hopefully I'll get through it in the next day or so.

Do you know how long the Germans planned for the destruction of Gibraltar? Two weeks? Three weeks? How long were the Germans going to hang around without any need to rush?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 774
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:55:10 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Compare to Russia. And, actually, the Spanish army is so thin, it's doubtful they could do the bridge-blowing that occurs in most campaigns. Rails will be repaired and bridges rebuilt or pontooned. (And Spain seems sort of dry to me).

warspite1

Who gives a damn about not being able to blow bridges if the bridges can't take heavy loads anyway? But certainly interesting that the Spanish don't know how to blow bridges now.


They can't blow bridges if they aren't there. The Spanish units are in a peacetime deployment. They don't have units sitting on the bridges. So, a lot of the bridges near the border will fall into German hands intact.
warspite1

Great point. I hadn't understood that only bridges near the border are important. Thanks.

Back in the real world, the Germans were concerned at the sheer number of tunnels and bridges that the rail and road lines went through and over. They were acutely aware that these were easy to sabotage.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/22/2020 7:43:52 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 775
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 5:56:34 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The Italians would garrison Spain, and sufficient garrison forces suppress partisan activities.

warspite1

Part III

And there you have it. Your debating style in a nutshell. You've been told, at great length, why it is highly unlikely Mussolini would agree to any such thing. You've been provided with quotes by the key players and historical examples.

Your response?

Curtis Lemay: I am ignoring you, I am going to repeat the same thing I've been churning out for pages - and I'm not going to provide a scrap of evidence in support of my position or even give you the courtesy of why I believe your evidence is wrong. But then I don't have to, I'm Curtis Lemay and I'm always right.





_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 776
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 7:04:41 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I want to go back to the supply capacity of rail lines, since that continues to be questioned (I don't recall just where at the moment).

Recall that I said a 36 division CCF force in Korea needed only one train per day - from SPI's Korea wargame notes.

Now add that SPI's Campaign for North Africa game had this note: Rommel needed 60,000 tons of supply per month in 1942. I don't know for sure if that included the Italians or just the Germans, so I'll assume only the Germans. That would be two panzer divisions and two motorized divisions (plus a few minor units, but for this purpose, I'll assume just the four divisions). So, assuming an Army Group is 32 divisions, I'll multiply that by eight (never mind that that will be 16 panzer and 16 motorized - no foot infantry) to a total of 480,000 tons per month.

This article gives the cargo capacity of 1940 era trains as 4440 tons each (60 cars per):

http://www.quorumcorp.net/Downloads/Papers/RailwayCapacityOverview.pdf

So, that works out to 108 trains per month or about 3.5 trains per day.

This article on route capacity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity

Gives an upper limit for freight trains as 15 per HOUR. It is inescapable that a single rail line has incredible freight capacity. Whatever force the Germans put into Spain or Turkey, one rail line will be far more than sufficient to supply it.
warspite1

From the Burbick book (and again remember this is for a Spain friendly, full co-operation Operation Felix situation):

Apart from what has been discussed about the different gauges:

In 1940, four different companies managed the rail system and they varied their practices in each of their sectors.

The rolling stock was insufficient to meet the movement demands of a large troop force. They were shorter than German ones, in a state of general disrepair and in very limited supply. There were enough rail lines, but they ran in directions unfavourable to attacking Gibraltar. The general disrepair of the rail lines (the beds were incapable of carrying the maximum load) meant that only the most essential supplies could be carried. How many trains did the Germans believe possible per day? Four, each carrying 400 tons.....

Sorry Curtis Lemay, what were you saying about the one rail line?

Obviously security was impossible under these conditions and sabotage both simple and effective. The Germans were alarmed at the number of tunnels and bridges.....

The army supply officer (von Waldau) did a detailed analysis. The approach would be a land march (Irun-Burgos-Salamanca-Seville-Jerez) = 1,200 kilometres. Just the projected troop strength for Gibraltar required 65,383 men, 1,094 horses, 13,179 tons of ammo, and more than 9,000 tons of gasoline. These supplies could not move in conjunction with the combat troops and so supply teams had to establish advance bases at Burgos, Salamanca, Merida and Seville. Selected units would occupy pre-determined repair shops and prepare facilities for German use.

Halder reported being concerned about available routes for motorised units given the roads - the roads for the 1,200Km march mentioned above were barely adequate; narrow, winding and laid through passes 2,000 metres high, all food would have to be taken with them as there was no possibility to live off the land given the dire food situation. The same situation applied to fuel....

At the end of the journey all equipment had to be carried on two roads within range of Gibraltar's guns.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/22/2020 7:59:13 PM >


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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 777
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 7:45:49 PM   
RangerJoe


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Not to mention that the different rail lines were probably different gauges. Plus the rail likes in France to Spain were distinct and different gauges. So you either have to transfer cargoes to different railroad cars, lift the loaded railroad cars so different wheels/axels could be installed, and/or tear up the tracks and replace them with the proper gauge. All with the potential of Spanish Maqui activity.

Part Slavic? Okay, that is understandable. But Hitler did not hate all Slavs, he promoted at least one German Slav to field marshal.

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 778
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 7:48:24 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Not to mention that the different rail lines were probably different gauges. Plus the rail likes in France to Spain were distinct and different gauges.

warspite1

The different gauges between France and Spain has been mentioned. Although they mention four separate companies owning the 'network' there is no mention at all that the gauges were different within Spain. I'm sure that would have been raised - believe me, this is a seriously impressive book.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 779
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/22/2020 8:23:20 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Not to mention that the different rail lines were probably different gauges. Plus the rail likes in France to Spain were distinct and different gauges.

warspite1

The different gauges between France and Spain has been mentioned. Although they mention four separate companies owning the 'network' there is no mention at all that the gauges were different within Spain. I'm sure that would have been raised - believe me, this is a seriously impressive book.



quote:

Iberian gauge (Spanish: ancho ibérico, trocha ibérica, Portuguese: bitola ibérica) is a track gauge of 1,668 mm (5 ft 5 21⁄32 in), most extensively used by the railways of Spain and Portugal. This is the second-widest gauge in regular use anywhere in the world. The Indian gauge, 5 ft 6 in (1,676 mm), is 8 mm (5⁄16 in) wider.

As finally established in 1955,[1] the Iberian gauge is a compromise between the similar, but slightly different, gauges adopted as respective national standards in Spain and Portugal in the mid-19th century. The main railway networks of Spain were initially constructed to a 1,672 mm (5 ft 5 13⁄16 in) gauge of six Castilian feet. Those of Portugal were instead built to a 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) and later railways to a 1,664 mm (5 ft 5 1⁄2 in) gauge of five Portuguese feet – close enough to allow interoperability with Spanish railways.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian-gauge_railways

History of rail transport in Spain

quote:

The history of rail transport in Spain begins in the 19th century. In 1848, a railway line between Barcelona and Mataró was inaugurated,[1] although a line in Cuba (then a Spanish overseas province) connecting Havana and Bejucal had already opened in 1837.[2] In 1852 the first narrow gauge line was built, in 1863 a line reached the Portuguese border. By 1864 the Madrid-Irun line had been opened, and the French border reached.
.
.
.
One major misfortune was the decision, taken at an early stage, that Spain's railways should be built to an unusual broad track gauge of 1,672 mm (5 ft 5 13⁄16 in), or six Castilian feet). Some believe that the choice of gauge was influenced by Spain's hostility to neighbouring France during the 1850s: it was believed that making the Spanish railway network incompatible with that of France would hinder any French invasion.[3] Other sources state that that decision was taken to allow bigger engines that could have enough power to climb the steep passes in the second most mountainous country in Europe. As a result, Portuguese railways were also built to a broad gauge (roughly the same, 1,664 mm or 5 ft 5 1⁄2 in, but rounded to a Portuguese unit). In 1955 Spain and Portugal decided to halve this difference of 8 mm (5⁄16 in), and defined their gauge to be 1,668 mm (5 ft 5 21⁄32 in), called Iberian gauge.

The decision for a national gauge came to be regretted by later generations, when international trade became more relevant, and it also made railway construction more expensive. Apart from the widespread broad-gauge lines, a large system of narrow gauge railways was built in the more mountainous parts of Spain, especially in the north coast of the country, where narrow gauge was the most adequate option.

The main-line network was roughly complete by the 1870s. Because of Spain's (until recently) relative lack of economic development, the Spanish railway network never became as extensive as those of most other European countries. For instance, in terms of land area Spain is about 2.5 times the size of Great Britain but its railway network is about 3,000 km (1,900 mi) smaller.
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It took many years for the railway system to recover from the war; during the 1950s it was common to see intercity express trains hauled by 100-year-old steam locomotives on poor worn-out track.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_Spain

Rail transport in Spain
This one has a listing of the different routes plus a lot of other information. It is current and not necessarily historical. I might guess that checking the individual routes would give more information.

quote:

Rail transport in Spain operates on four rail gauges and services are operated by a variety of private and public operators. The total route length in 2012 was 16,026 km.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Spain

quote:

Renfe Operadora (Spanish pronunciation: [ˈreɱfe opeɾaˈðoɾa]) is the state-owned company which operates freight and passenger trains on the 1,668 mm (5 ft 5 21⁄32 in) Iberian gauge, the 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) standard gauge and the 1,000 mm (3 ft 3 3⁄8 in) metre gauge networks of the Spanish national railway infrastructure company Adif (Administrador de Infraestructuras Ferroviarias—Railway Infrastructure Administration).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renfe_Operadora

Modern information but this is telling the importance of one city that just can't be bypassed. City fighting seems to be hard on tanks:

quote:

Transport in Spain is characterised by an extensive network of roads, railways (including the world's second longest high speed rail network), rapid transit, air routes, and ports. Its geographic location makes it an important link between Europe, Africa, and the Americas. Major forms of transit generally radiate from the capital, Madrid, located in the centre of the country, to link with the capitals of the autonomous communities.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Spain


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
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