Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: The question to ask about The Italians

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: The question to ask about The Italians Page: <<   < prev  44 45 46 [47] 48   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/15/2020 11:01:44 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
So unless Britain marshaled the forces, deployed them closer, had the ships packed with equipment in port just waiting, but the troops ashore someplace doing some light training but not straying to far from the port, then the Canary Islands were unlikely to be occupied by the Allies unless they were invited in. If they were invited in, and even if they were not, the Canary Islands would then be occupied by the Allies at some point. Then any Free Spanish forces would actually have Spanish territory to retreat to and/or have expatriates join them there.

Other than U-boats, there would be little to no Axis naval intervention until Gibraltar was taken. Then it might be the Italian Navy in the open Atlantic, leaving the middle Med area of operations to go to the Atlantic. I am sure that would really help the North Afrikan Italian operations!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Buckrock)
Post #: 1381
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/15/2020 2:13:53 PM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
So unless Britain marshaled the forces, deployed them closer, had the ships packed with equipment in port just waiting, but the troops ashore someplace doing some light training but not straying to far from the port.....


Once everything was finally organized (taking about two weeks), the force and associated shipping were to be put on a 7 day standby to await events, meaning they could arrive off the Canaries about 14 days after the decision was made to launch the operation. And yes, that allowed some training/rehearsals to be conducted. The operation was to be launched at a time allowing a night arrival in low or no moonlight to ensure the commando units making the initial landing had the maximum chance of surprise against the estimated 20000 man garrison along with the coastal batteries.

It was also estimated at the time that this 7 day standby posture could be maintained for about a month before the shipping and troops would need to be released for other commitments.


_____________________________

This was the only sig line I could think of.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1382
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/15/2020 2:22:36 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
I would like to inject a graphical element into this discussion (below).

I don't know if this has been mentioned in any of the previous 1380 posts...forgive me for not reading them all.
The Germans don't need to take Gibraltar. They only need to deny its use (i.e., the harbor) to the British. The Luftwaffe was very capable of doing that, if it had airbases within reach of the Rock.










Attachment (3)

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1383
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/15/2020 2:50:49 PM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline
Force H was expected to head for open water once the Germans crossed the Spanish border. It wasn't just the threat of a sudden aerial attack, there was also the three major Spanish coastal batteries along with smaller nearby field batteries that could become a major threat if the Spanish decided they were going to get blamed anyway for allowing German indiscretions.

_____________________________

This was the only sig line I could think of.

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 1384
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/15/2020 3:43:11 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
I can see a plan forming for a quick grab by the "neutral" Italians . . .

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 5/31/2021 11:00:46 PM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Buckrock)
Post #: 1385
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/15/2020 4:56:20 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline
Thanks Zorch!
You give me an excellent what-if scenario suggest.

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 1386
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/16/2020 2:36:50 AM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
Speaking of which...has it been discussed allowing the Luftwaffe to use Spanish bases without Spain declaring war on Britain? No land action, just closing the border, if it wasn't already closed.

Such an arrangement would let Franco save face by not declaring war. It wouldn't stop the British from cutting off food + oil, but might cut him some slack with the US and Latin America. Franco could say to them (sotto voce), "Look, I had no choice but to let the Luftwaffe use my airfields, but I kept Spain out of the war when Hitler wanted me to go all in". Not sure how far that rationalization would go.

Franco did send the Blue division to Russia without a declaration of war, but they were 'volunteers' retaliating for the Soviet 'volunteers' who fought in Spain. And the Germans would have to send aviation support and and airfield protection forces to Spain, plus ongoing supplies.

Also, El Caudillo could say to Winston, "Please don't cut off my food and oil or seize the Canary Islands. I only want Gibraltar. You can keep the rest of your colonies. I won't say a word about West Indies piracy, plundering my treasure fleets, and those bastards Drake and Anson. You really don't want me to send another Armada, do you?"

Um, what did you say was in those brownies I ate?

(in reply to rico21)
Post #: 1387
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/16/2020 2:42:17 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
They must have been good brownies.

Stalin wanted the western Allies to invade Spain and take out Franco after Germany was defeated. The Spanish maquis even invaded Spain from France during the war but the other Allies did not support them. Franco was in a tough position but allowing the Luftwaffe in? Normandy need not have been done at all. The Spanish citizens might not have like the Allied troops there but they would have liked the food.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 1388
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/16/2020 3:12:50 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Speaking of which...has it been discussed allowing the Luftwaffe to use Spanish bases without Spain declaring war on Britain? No land action, just closing the border, if it wasn't already closed.

warspite1

Who does that help though? It doesn't get Spain Gibraltar (but does bring them a world of grief), it doesn't put Gibraltar permanently out of action (but does commit German aircraft to Spain) and it allows the Royal Navy to move back as soon as German aircraft are sent elsewhere. Take Gibraltar or don't. The German air force in World War II suffered from having too much to do with not enough aircraft. If the Germans aren't going to invade Gibraltar then they will need an air force in Spain permanently or the British will move back in - a la Malta.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Such an arrangement would let Franco save face by not declaring war.

warspite1

I can't really see how that wouldn't be the equivalent to declaring war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

It wouldn't stop the British from cutting off food + oil

warspite1

Correct

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

"Look, I had no choice but to let the Luftwaffe use my airfields, but I kept Spain out of the war when Hitler wanted me to go all in". Not sure how far that rationalization would go.

warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Also, El Caudillo could say to Winston, "Please don't cut off my food and oil or seize the Canary Islands. I only want Gibraltar. You can keep the rest of your colonies".

warspite1

Well yes, I'm sure he could say that......

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

"You really don't want me to send another Armada, do you?"

warspite1

Sure send another one. The first one was fun.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/16/2020 4:00:07 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 1389
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/16/2020 4:45:35 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.


Why not mention US pre-war in this list?

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1390
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/16/2020 5:23:06 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.


Why not mention US pre-war in this list?


Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1391
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/16/2020 5:38:25 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.


Why not mention US pre-war in this list?


Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?
warspite1

My sincere apologies for not naming every single country. The clue was in the sentence (in bold).


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1392
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/16/2020 5:47:05 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.


Why not mention US pre-war in this list?


Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?
warspite1

My sincere apologies for not naming every single country. The clue was in the sentence (in bold).


I knew that but I as just being helpful to Orm.

But Spain also helped the Allies as well not to mention people fleeing Nazi Europe.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1393
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/16/2020 5:55:48 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.


Why not mention US pre-war in this list?


Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?
warspite1

My sincere apologies for not naming every single country. The clue was in the sentence (in bold).


Yes, I understood that it was only an example. It just felt like all the examples were of actions that benefited Axis, and I just wanted to suggest that there were actions in the other direction as well. Should have written it better.

Edit: Is felt the right form? Or right word?

< Message edited by Orm -- 10/16/2020 5:57:07 PM >


_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1394
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/16/2020 8:04:03 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.


Why not mention US pre-war in this list?


Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?
warspite1

My sincere apologies for not naming every single country. The clue was in the sentence (in bold).


Yes, I understood that it was only an example. It just felt like all the examples were of actions that benefited Axis, and I just wanted to suggest that there were actions in the other direction as well. Should have written it better.

Edit: Is felt the right form? Or right word?
warspite1

Because the subject was a country whose actions would have benefitted the Axis, it seemed logical to use examples of other countries whose actions benefitted the Axis. If you want to use other examples then no problem.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1395
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/17/2020 12:22:28 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Except they haven't stayed out of the war. We all know there are grey areas in life - France and Syria, Sweden and German troop transit, Spain and U-boat safe haven for example. But allowing the Luftwaffe to base, and conduct operations against Gibraltar from sovereign Spanish territory? Not really the actions of a neutral.


Why not mention US pre-war in this list?


Or Ireland? What about Switzerland?
warspite1

My sincere apologies for not naming every single country. The clue was in the sentence (in bold).


Yes, I understood that it was only an example. It just felt like all the examples were of actions that benefited Axis, and I just wanted to suggest that there were actions in the other direction as well. Should have written it better.

Edit: Is felt the right form? Or right word?
warspite1

Because the subject was a country whose actions would have benefitted the Axis, it seemed logical to use examples of other countries whose actions benefitted the Axis. If you want to use other examples then no problem.



Yes, felt is the proper word in the proper context there as I understand English. Of course, in English, I would not want to be a swede . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1396
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/19/2020 10:26:14 AM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Speaking of which...has it been discussed allowing the Luftwaffe to use Spanish bases without Spain declaring war on Britain? No land action, just closing the border, if it wasn't already closed.

Such an arrangement would let Franco save face by not declaring war. It wouldn't stop the British from cutting off food + oil, but might cut him some slack with the US and Latin America. Franco could say to them (sotto voce), "Look, I had no choice but to let the Luftwaffe use my airfields, but I kept Spain out of the war when Hitler wanted me to go all in". Not sure how far that rationalization would go.

There was an similar scenario that British planners were considering by late 1940, where Spain protests but in lieu of a survivable alternative is forced to allow German entry, which leads to Gibraltar and Portugal (and possibly Tangiers) being taken before the Germans then withdraw from Spanish territory, relying on sea and air supply (not the band) from Italy and Occupied France to sustain the German forces left to defend these newly won areas while Britain and the US are left to assess any Spanish claims of still qualifying as a non-belligerent, especially now that there is no longer a German presence in her sovereign territories.

It might sound like the British planners were over-thinking things but that was their wartime role and they recognized the fact that Spain was somewhat trapped between a Rock and a hard place. They could also leave it to bodies like the War Cabinet and the Ministry of Economic Warfare to make the final judgement as to Spanish accountability over the matter.




_____________________________

This was the only sig line I could think of.

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 1397
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/19/2020 3:45:46 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Speaking of which...has it been discussed allowing the Luftwaffe to use Spanish bases without Spain declaring war on Britain? No land action, just closing the border, if it wasn't already closed.

Such an arrangement would let Franco save face by not declaring war. It wouldn't stop the British from cutting off food + oil, but might cut him some slack with the US and Latin America. Franco could say to them (sotto voce), "Look, I had no choice but to let the Luftwaffe use my airfields, but I kept Spain out of the war when Hitler wanted me to go all in". Not sure how far that rationalization would go.

There was an similar scenario that British planners were considering by late 1940, where Spain protests but in lieu of a survivable alternative is forced to allow German entry, which leads to Gibraltar and Portugal (and possibly Tangiers) being taken before the Germans then withdraw from Spanish territory, relying on sea and air supply (not the band) from Italy and Occupied France to sustain the German forces left to defend these newly won areas while Britain and the US are left to assess any Spanish claims of still qualifying as a non-belligerent, especially now that there is no longer a German presence in her sovereign territories.

It might sound like the British planners were over-thinking things but that was their wartime role and they recognized the fact that Spain was somewhat trapped between a Rock and a hard place. They could also leave it to bodies like the War Cabinet and the Ministry of Economic Warfare to make the final judgement as to Spanish accountability over the matter.



There was also Operation Tracer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tracer

(in reply to Buckrock)
Post #: 1398
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/23/2020 12:22:51 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Almost finished Mussolini Unleashed. This has been such a good read and really brings home the true nature of the German/Italian relationship in the early years of the war (and of course the total basket case that was Commando Supremo). If anyone has found this thread interesting I would thoroughly recommend buying this book.



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 1399
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/23/2020 1:05:43 PM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
If anyone has found this thread interesting I would thoroughly recommend buying this book.

I'm sure the author of Mussolini Unleashed will be so grateful for a comparison like that.



_____________________________

This was the only sig line I could think of.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1400
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/23/2020 1:49:52 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Almost finished Mussolini Unleashed. This has been such a good read and really brings home the true nature of the German/Italian relationship in the early years of the war (and of course the total basket case that was Commando Supremo). If anyone has found this thread interesting I would thoroughly recommend buying this book.



and if we have found that this thread is more interesting than the book?

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1401
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/23/2020 3:09:43 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
If anyone has found this thread interesting I would thoroughly recommend buying this book.

I'm sure the author of Mussolini Unleashed will be so grateful for a comparison like that.


warspite1

Correct - you can't buy that kind of publicity


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Buckrock)
Post #: 1402
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/24/2020 1:38:51 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Almost finished Mussolini Unleashed. This has been such a good read and really brings home the true nature of the German/Italian relationship in the early years of the war (and of course the total basket case that was Commando Supremo). If anyone has found this thread interesting I would thoroughly recommend buying this book.




Forgive me mate, but I've been away from the forum and certainly this thread for a time. Is this a serious positive book review of which you speak or is this an inside joke based upon the unread body of 1398 previous posts on this thread?

_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1403
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/24/2020 8:58:55 AM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Almost finished Mussolini Unleashed. This has been such a good read and really brings home the true nature of the German/Italian relationship in the early years of the war (and of course the total basket case that was Commando Supremo). If anyone has found this thread interesting I would thoroughly recommend buying this book.




Forgive me mate, but I've been away from the forum and certainly this thread for a time. Is this a serious positive book review of which you speak or is this an inside joke based upon the unread body of 1398 previous posts on this thread?

+1

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 1404
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/24/2020 9:11:19 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Almost finished Mussolini Unleashed. This has been such a good read and really brings home the true nature of the German/Italian relationship in the early years of the war (and of course the total basket case that was Commando Supremo). If anyone has found this thread interesting I would thoroughly recommend buying this book.




Forgive me mate, but I've been away from the forum and certainly this thread for a time. Is this a serious positive book review of which you speak or is this an inside joke based upon the unread body of 1398 previous posts on this thread?
warspite1

Welcome back!

Yes, this is a serious comment on the book Mussolini Unleashed 1939-1941 (Knox)

The thread started off as an question of whether better equipment would have resulted in better Italian performance, and then morphed into a “staff study” that suggested a war winning strategy for Germany would have seen them postpone Barbarossa for a year and adopt a Med first strategy.

I suggested that anyone who found this thread of interest should read this book. The reason for that concerns one of the central components of this “staff study”. What was being put forward was that the Italian – German relationship was one of perfect harmony and total trust, in which the Italians were quite happy for the Germans to take the lead in the Mediterranean. The Italians were happy to play nothing more than a bit part role – the Italian army’s sole purpose was limited to conceding the whole of Cyrenaica and large parts of Tripolitania and merely defending Tripoli from British attack - while the Germans took Gibraltar (invading Spain in the process and creating a German puppet regime). The Italians were also equally happy that the Balkans came under the German sphere of influence, leading to a German invasion of Turkey and the Middle East and ultimately Suez. The “staff study” also claims that the Italians would be happy, post the fighting, for their army to be merely used for occupation duties in countries that they never defeated and/or no longer were even in Italy’s sphere of influence.

It was argued by a number of people that this was frankly absurd for any number of reasons, and this book makes clear that those arguments are fully supported by the facts. The “staff study” treats the Italians as mere puppets or extensions of Germany and suggests that Italy, Mussolini and the Italian military would have been happy to be treated in that way.

Simply put, it ignores real life. It ignores the personalities involved, it ignores the comments and actions of those involved – comments and actions that are superbly brought to life by Knox. We see periods of time in which Mussolini was actually hoping for a German defeat, and other times, hoping for at least a German reverse to give Italy time to win her own battles, we see Mussolini desperate for Italian victories, scared witless that the Germans and British (or at other times, the Germans and Soviets) would come to a deal. Importantly it also shows that Mussolini feared swapping the jailers at Gibraltar and Suez (the British) for another (the Germans).

Mussolini was in a horrible position of his own making – and he knew it. He didn’t like the Germans – or at least he certainly distrusted them, but he needed them if his dreams were to be realised. He hated being the junior member of an alliance in which Hitler never told him anything and presented him with ‘fait accompli’. He knew full well (and the defeat of France confirmed it) that Italy would need her own victories, failing which, Italy would simply be the lap dog, feeding off German scraps, a lap-dog that the “staff study” suggests they would have been happy with – but of course was something Mussolini wasn’t going to allow (at least until defeat after defeat made that inevitable).

But life isn’t simple (as if the above wasn’t complicated enough for Mussolini). He also had his subordinates going off and doing their own things. Again the book brings out just how often Ciano, Badoglio, Graziani and Cavagnari were either ignoring Mussolini or even actively working against him (often with good reason). About the only thing that united them was that they didn’t want the Germans encroaching in their preserve.

This, very readable book, is very useful as part of understanding why the war developed in the way it did post the fall of France.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/24/2020 9:12:12 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 1405
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/24/2020 4:13:55 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
Useful summary. Thanks mate.

Did Mussolini's outlook on his relationship with Ze Germans change post Skorzeny rescue? That was pretty late in the game and, from what anecdotal references I've seen-he was already a 'beaten' man in many ways. But did this rescue and follow-on realpolitik change meaningfully?

_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1406
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/24/2020 4:23:13 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline
http://www.sixtant.net/2011/artigos.php?cat=german-attempt-to-conquer-gibraltar&sub=gibraltar--the-rock&tag=operation-felix*

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1407
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/24/2020 5:04:32 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Useful summary. Thanks mate.

Did Mussolini's outlook on his relationship with Ze Germans change post Skorzeny rescue? That was pretty late in the game and, from what anecdotal references I've seen-he was already a 'beaten' man in many ways. But did this rescue and follow-on realpolitik change meaningfully?


don't think he had much choice then. The RSI was a classic German puppet regime, so not under their full control but close enough. Even if it had wanted to, it had nowhere to go. Italy had surrendered and the Germans wouldn't simply retreat and it lacked much normal armed forces apart from some very pro-Fascist elements.

The Allies by late 44 were negioting with figures in his regime to try and set up the basis for a transition of power to limit the risk that the partisan movement got control of a region (and possibly set off a Greek style revolt vs the Allies).

Its fiction but Carlo Lucarelli's Carte Blanche is really good on the internal dynamics of the final days. They were still trying to undermine each other for power, there was a vestige of a normal state but the one person no one was interested in was Mussolini

_____________________________


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 1408
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/25/2020 5:21:52 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Useful summary. Thanks mate.

Did Mussolini's outlook on his relationship with Ze Germans change post Skorzeny rescue? That was pretty late in the game and, from what anecdotal references I've seen-he was already a 'beaten' man in many ways. But did this rescue and follow-on realpolitik change meaningfully?


don't think he had much choice then. The RSI was a classic German puppet regime, so not under their full control but close enough. Even if it had wanted to, it had nowhere to go. Italy had surrendered and the Germans wouldn't simply retreat and it lacked much normal armed forces apart from some very pro-Fascist elements.

The Allies by late 44 were negioting with figures in his regime to try and set up the basis for a transition of power to limit the risk that the partisan movement got control of a region (and possibly set off a Greek style revolt vs the Allies).

warspite1

Nothing to add to this really. Mussolini was an irrelevance by then.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 1409
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/26/2020 2:02:07 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Here is an interesting read:

the wages of destruction

https://www.bing.com/search?q=the+wages+of+destruction+pdf&FORM=QSRE8

Full text of "Tooze, Adam The Wages Of Destruction The Making And Breaking Of The Nazi Economy"

https://archive.org/stream/ToozeAdamTheWagesOfDestructionTheMakingAndBreakingOfTheNaziEconomy/Tooze%2C%20Adam%20-%20The%20Wages%20of%20Destruction%20The%20Making%20and%20Breaking%20of%20the%20Nazi%20Economy_djvu.txt


Thanks for reporting this book!!
warspite1

So what is your take on the introduction? Is Tooze blaming the US (at least initially) for the start of Germany's problems? Is he suggesting Britain was to blame for moving off the Gold Standard? What I don't get a sense of here is why countries took the action they did - but moreover, what they could have done differently.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 1410
Page:   <<   < prev  44 45 46 [47] 48   next >   >>
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: The question to ask about The Italians Page: <<   < prev  44 45 46 [47] 48   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.781