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Odds and Ends - 9/10/2020 9:46:39 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		Just a few other points about the game I'd like to make. One is research where I think it's a bit too easy to gimmick the research. I think that allowing us to add a research point every year is a tad too generous and lends itself to players gimmicking research by piling on points for a few techs while downplaying others. I'd think that should be reduced to one in 1941 and 1 in 1943, so that the max investment is 6 for any tech. Perhaps there should be a minimum research investment of 1 but there are some projects that some countries may not want to invest in. Escort fighters is a worthless tech if you never plan to build escort fighter groups, does nothing for interceptor units and shouldn't. Some countries probably don't want to invest in strategic bombers.

Does Sonar & Electronics affect every bomber type? Does it improve anti-sub warfare values for all types of bomber units like close support, fighter bombers and strategic bombers or just Naval bombers? What does Naval Air Training do and which air units does it affect? Does it affect all bomber types or just the Naval bombers? If it's only Naval bombing groups then unless I plan to build dedicated naval bomber groups this research is useless. I'm assuming here that it would affect only the naval bomber groups. What benefits does carrier Operations provide? Does it improve carrier air attacks against all target types or just against shipping? Does it improve defense as well?

I wish we could change type of unit like Breakthrough Armor to the Heavy Armor type with a cost in production.
Post #: 1
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/10/2020 10:25:41 PM   
Nirosi

 

Posts: 1776
Joined: 9/17/2017
Status: offline 		Hi,

I might have answer to at least some of the questions:

An advancement affects only units that are built with the path that has the same name. Each advancement (research) as a path in the build screen with the exact same name. So to answer you question about naval-air, yes it would only affect air units that are built (or eventually converted) with that exact path. Some advancements can affect more than one unit (CV, DDs and escorts for example could be built with the convoy escort path, they all have that option; well escorts have no choice really).

Concerning Carrier operations, the right panel of the research screen will show you exactly what improvement it gives at each step/year. Some years (for Carrier operations) it improves tactical strength (so against land units), some years it improves anti-sub, some years defence, some years anti-air etc. (and some years nothing!).

As far as going between breakthrough and heavy armors it can now be done since the last patch. For land units one can switch for a cost in production. It is the same for air units but there is also a very small cost in experience as well for them.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 2
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/10/2020 10:55:41 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		Nirosi,
Thanks for confirming some of my assumptions on research. Still curious about the Sonar and Electronics research option and exactly whhich units that affects, presumably quite a few. I hope Alvaro will chime in with a precise answer.

Yes I do know about the screen to the right in the research area and have been using it. However I want to know if there's anything else not seen on that screen that advances as well.

Yep I did see that new Change Advancement button as well and gave Alvaro kudos for that.

< Message edited by Omnius -- 9/10/2020 10:56:06 PM >

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Post #: 3
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/10/2020 11:40:31 PM   
Nirosi

 

Posts: 1776
Joined: 9/17/2017
Status: offline 		Hi Omnius,

I'll have to open the game to see for sure, but from humble memory, I believe that Electronics/Sonar can only be applied to Strategic bombers and Tactical bombers.

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Post #: 4
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/10/2020 11:42:09 PM   
Nirosi

 

Posts: 1776
Joined: 9/17/2017
Status: offline
quote:

However I want to know if there's anything else not seen on that screen that advances as well.


Ok I see. The chances to find a sub (or fleet) seems indeed not to be mentioned in those tables. But the research probably affects it somewhere. I would also be curious to know.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 5
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/10/2020 11:58:43 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		The chances of finding the sub are not on the table, just the increase in the base value of anti-sub warfare for that unit will be present. (ie. 0,1,2). Anti-Sub Tech— Is Sonar, hedge hogs, and convoy escort tactics for attacking submarines. The techs that have an effect with a change in Anti-sub are Detection and Electronics, Large Warships, Warships, Carrier Operations and Convoy Escorts.

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Post #: 6
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/11/2020 12:28:32 PM   
Nirosi

 

Posts: 1776
Joined: 9/17/2017
Status: offline
quote:

Hi Omnius,

I'll have to open the game to see for sure, but from humble memory, I believe that Electronics/Sonar can only be applied to Strategic bombers and Tactical bombers.


I double checked, and ground support planes can take that path (Electronics) as well (which would then make their name inappropriate in that case). But with their range, I would be surprised to see anybody do that, much better result for your PP if one goes with Strategic or, maybe, Tactical.

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Post #: 7
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/11/2020 2:16:19 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Detection electronics are just for air vs sub. In WP2 I will merge this into convoys. As pointed out players generally don't take this option as it isn't worth it.

I take it to like 1942 and buy air for Iceland, Greenland, St. Johns, and Azores if needed. +1 or +2 ASW make a difference.

Finding subs is the same as finding fleets.

Sub fleets are limited to 3 naval groups while other fleets 9 which makes a big difference in searches in low recon areas by ratio of success.

Page 82 and 83 detail searches in the new 1.00.08 manual.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 8
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/11/2020 4:25:25 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1530
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Page 82 and 83 detail searches in the new 1.00.08 manual.

If I am interpreting the table right on pages 82 and 83, having a stack of fleets doesn't increase the chance of being spotted much. The increase is +1% for each group. Even a nine fleet stack isn't going to increase the chance much.

Also, the table lists a factor for enemy groups but I haven't found what the effect of the friendly group having more ships is unless it is built into their base number.

The footnote on the Spot Matrix says that each attempt has a 35% chance of increasing the reconnaissance level. I assume that meant just one point on the Spot Number.

These tables on pg 82/83 refer to "Interception". Are the same tables used for spotting fleets attempting to attack subs and other fleets on open ocean?


(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 9
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/12/2020 1:07:46 AM   
Cigar King

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 10/10/2010
Status: offline 		Wondering if it might make sense to reduce naval movement, especially subs, when in range of enemy land based air power? Subs were very vulnerable to surface movement, especially later in the war when the radar advancements could fit on planes. The run from the Bay of Biscay was very risky at that point.

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Post #: 10
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/12/2020 2:16:30 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

quote:

Page 82 and 83 detail searches in the new 1.00.08 manual.

If I am interpreting the table right on pages 82 and 83, having a stack of fleets doesn't increase the chance of being spotted much. The increase is +1% for each group. Even a nine fleet stack isn't going to increase the chance much.

Also, the table lists a factor for enemy groups but I haven't found what the effect of the friendly group having more ships is unless it is built into their base number.

The footnote on the Spot Matrix says that each attempt has a 35% chance of increasing the reconnaissance level. I assume that meant just one point on the Spot Number.

These tables on pg 82/83 refer to "Interception". Are the same tables used for spotting fleets attempting to attack subs and other fleets on open ocean?





You are reading in absolute amounts.

When the chances of finding are 90% and you have 6 naval grps that's + ~6.2% only.

When the chances of finding are 5% and you have 6 naval grps you more than doubled your chances of success ~11% total

When the chances of finding are 5% and you have 6 naval grps split into 3 fleets you have ~22% chance to find with at least 1 naval group.

There are various ways to approach naval combat.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 11
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/12/2020 3:14:52 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		Could someone please point me to that new manual for 1.00.08, can't find it through the game nor here on the forum with the printer friendly version. I definitely want to see the charts on pages 82 & 83.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 12
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/12/2020 3:29:31 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Game Manuals (v1.00.08) - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SHuPARd9_u02hHtmGdEspTInAabbtD0-/view?usp=sharing
Location - Default game location folder which is usually.... C:\Program Files (x86)\Matrix\WarPlan\Manuals
RED = removed
YELLOW = changed

Invasion Guide
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VN8ugRJ-glAkm0ashJm6_TxOIrMOYPIY

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 13
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/12/2020 3:37:14 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1530
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		Should be in "Manuals" folder of the "WarPlan" folder. It is labeled "WarPlan Manual 100008 Updated.pdf" on my computer. I don't remember if it came with the install or I had to download it as a separate zip file. If you don't have it in the Manuals folder you might check the Matrix website for a "Manuals ver 8.zip" file.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 14
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/12/2020 8:09:35 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Should be in "Manuals" folder of the "WarPlan" folder. It is labeled "WarPlan Manual 100008 Updated.pdf" on my computer. I don't remember if it came with the install or I had to download it as a separate zip file. If you don't have it in the Manuals folder you might check the Matrix website for a "Manuals ver 8.zip" file.


Thanks! I did find it before seeing this after realizing where it would be considering all of the other games I've played.

Regarding CV's after getting wised up by Alvaro I'm of the mind that 2 carriers operate separately while 3 carriers operate together. Perhaps that's been your problem if you group only two together, they don't get the search bonus so you're only getting two shots instead of 4 like I've been getting and seeing plenty of hits even from carriers of the '39 vintage. It sounds to me like With 3 the other 2 search while 1 strikes, the search helping get hits through more finds. Do you research your carrier ops? I do.

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Post #: 15
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/13/2020 5:17:00 AM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa


quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

quote:

Page 82 and 83 detail searches in the new 1.00.08 manual.

If I am interpreting the table right on pages 82 and 83, having a stack of fleets doesn't increase the chance of being spotted much. The increase is +1% for each group. Even a nine fleet stack isn't going to increase the chance much.

Also, the table lists a factor for enemy groups but I haven't found what the effect of the friendly group having more ships is unless it is built into their base number.

The footnote on the Spot Matrix says that each attempt has a 35% chance of increasing the reconnaissance level. I assume that meant just one point on the Spot Number.

These tables on pg 82/83 refer to "Interception". Are the same tables used for spotting fleets attempting to attack subs and other fleets on open ocean?





You are reading in absolute amounts.

When the chances of finding are 90% and you have 6 naval grps that's + ~6.2% only.

When the chances of finding are 5% and you have 6 naval grps you more than doubled your chances of success ~11% total

When the chances of finding are 5% and you have 6 naval grps split into 3 fleets you have ~22% chance to find with at least 1 naval group.

There are various ways to approach naval combat.

Just for clarification please
Naval groups are different than air groups then? The spot number is determined by the ocean square recon level and not distance to enemy fleet like with air? For example, if the ocean hex has a very low recon level (ie. weather could reduce the recon level of a hex) then the base spot number for those naval units attacking works out to 1 (very low recon).
Base 10 value
Ocean Hex
very low recon -9 Base of 1
low recon -7 Base of 3
medium -5 Base of 5
high -2 Base of 8
very high -0 Base of 10

I'll give a specific example now, 1CV,1BB,1CA,1DD group (with 2 OP) attack a 1BB Raider (-1 spot number mod) fleet group in mid ocean where the hex recon level is very low. So then the spot number is 0. (ie Base - very low recon hex - Raider Mode) which translates into a spot chance of 5%(from the table), then CV 10 naval air adds +3%, +1% for the enemy group, so this spot attempt generates 9% chance of being spotted. (approx 1 in 10). It gets a +1 spotting on the first OP, which raises the Naval ID from 0 to 1 of the BB Raider, so the spot number is now 1 which translates to 15% + 4% = 19% chance of being spotted (1 in 5) on the second OP.

Is this about right?




< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/13/2020 5:35:05 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/13/2020 2:36:25 PM   
kbar

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 12/12/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa


quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

quote:

Page 82 and 83 detail searches in the new 1.00.08 manual.

If I am interpreting the table right on pages 82 and 83, having a stack of fleets doesn't increase the chance of being spotted much. The increase is +1% for each group. Even a nine fleet stack isn't going to increase the chance much.

Also, the table lists a factor for enemy groups but I haven't found what the effect of the friendly group having more ships is unless it is built into their base number.

The footnote on the Spot Matrix says that each attempt has a 35% chance of increasing the reconnaissance level. I assume that meant just one point on the Spot Number.

These tables on pg 82/83 refer to "Interception". Are the same tables used for spotting fleets attempting to attack subs and other fleets on open ocean?





You are reading in absolute amounts.

When the chances of finding are 90% and you have 6 naval grps that's + ~6.2% only.

When the chances of finding are 5% and you have 6 naval grps you more than doubled your chances of success ~11% total

When the chances of finding are 5% and you have 6 naval grps split into 3 fleets you have ~22% chance to find with at least 1 naval group.

There are various ways to approach naval combat.

Just for clarification please
Naval groups are different than air groups then? The spot number is determined by the ocean square recon level and not distance to enemy fleet like with air? For example, if the ocean hex has a very low recon level (ie. weather could reduce the recon level of a hex) then the base spot number for those naval units attacking works out to 1 (very low recon).
Base 10 value
Ocean Hex
very low recon -9 Base of 1
low recon -7 Base of 3
medium -5 Base of 5
high -2 Base of 8
very high -0 Base of 10

I'll give a specific example now, 1CV,1BB,1CA,1DD group (with 2 OP) attack a 1BB Raider (-1 spot number mod) fleet group in mid ocean where the hex recon level is very low. So then the spot number is 0. (ie Base - very low recon hex - Raider Mode) which translates into a spot chance of 5%(from the table), then CV 10 naval air adds +3%, +1% for the enemy group, so this spot attempt generates 9% chance of being spotted. (approx 1 in 10). It gets a +1 spotting on the first OP, which raises the Naval ID from 0 to 1 of the BB Raider, so the spot number is now 1 which translates to 15% + 4% = 19% chance of being spotted (1 in 5) on the second OP.

Is this about right?






Is it +1% or +4% (1+1+1+1) for the naval groups?

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Post #: 17
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/13/2020 2:45:50 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

I'll give a specific example now, 1CV,1BB,1CA,1DD group (with 2 OP) attack a 1BB Raider (-1 spot number mod) fleet group in mid ocean where the hex recon level is very low. So then the spot number is 0. (ie Base - very low recon hex - Raider Mode) which translates into a spot chance of 5%(from the table), then CV 10 naval air adds +3%, +1% for the enemy group, so this spot attempt generates 9% chance of being spotted. (approx 1 in 10). It gets a +1 spotting on the first OP, which raises the Naval ID from 0 to 1 of the BB Raider, so the spot number is now 1 which translates to 15% + 4% = 19% chance of being spotted (1 in 5) on the second OP.

Is this about right?


That's about right.


_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ago1000)
Post #: 18
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/13/2020 4:04:14 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		Okay now I see that carriers have 10 air factors so get that 3% boost. Now what if I have 2 carriers in a fleet? Do I get 2 attacks from the initial carrier group plus the 3% search boost from the second? Or is it a 6% boost for both carriers with a carrier making two attacks? What about 3 carriers? Get a 9% boost plus 2 attacks?

I started a new game with 1.00.8 and on the first turn blew out of port with my 2 German subs to the North Atlantic route. British carriers came out to give chase with one attack not doing anything. On the next turn I moved to the South Atlantic but stayed within range of the carriers and sunk 2 MS points. Of course the British carriers score 3 consecutive +1 search results and the 4th attack scored two hits on a German sub. Finally see that I have to practice Muhammed Ali sub tactics, float like a butterfly and hopefully sting like a bee. I was putting my subs on a leash trying to stay within 1 movement turn of port but see it's better to move away along the route to ensure the British carriers have to move and only get one shot each. I still think that I'd rather split my carriers so sub searches. With the new Change Advancement button I can now switch out my Carrier Ops British carriers for Convoy Escort ones and make them deadlier to subs far earlier. Once again not seeing the upside to the sub war as the German.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 19
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/13/2020 4:31:35 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I'm not sure what you mean by 2 attacks from the initial Carrier group because the fleet will have OP points associated with it. If a fleet has two OP points then it can try to attack twice. But there is a process of spotting the fleet first. If the spotting is successful then their is a naval engagement that follow another set of rules(hits, critical hits, etc).

The tactics you describe, I'm learning are how sub commanders did things in real life, attack, dive and run. So it makes sense that it works here in the game. Also, by moving, you are reducing the number of spot attempts your opponent can make. Very good strategy.

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Post #: 20
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/13/2020 6:12:28 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Okay now I see that carriers have 10 air factors so get that 3% boost. Now what if I have 2 carriers in a fleet? Do I get 2 attacks from the initial carrier group plus the 3% search boost from the second? Or is it a 6% boost for both carriers with a carrier making two attacks? What about 3 carriers? Get a 9% boost plus 2 attacks?



OK. I think I get what you are saying now so I'll try to answer. A single fleet of 2CVs grps, will get two chances to attack if they have two OP points remaining. They will get a +6% modification on each attack because the fleet attacks as a group.
Three CVs are the same, you can perform as many attacks as OP points that you have, and you will get a +9 modification for each fleet attack attempt.

Hope this helps.


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Post #: 21
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/13/2020 6:17:52 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kbar


quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa


quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

quote:

Page 82 and 83 detail searches in the new 1.00.08 manual.

If I am interpreting the table right on pages 82 and 83, having a stack of fleets doesn't increase the chance of being spotted much. The increase is +1% for each group. Even a nine fleet stack isn't going to increase the chance much.

Also, the table lists a factor for enemy groups but I haven't found what the effect of the friendly group having more ships is unless it is built into their base number.

The footnote on the Spot Matrix says that each attempt has a 35% chance of increasing the reconnaissance level. I assume that meant just one point on the Spot Number.

These tables on pg 82/83 refer to "Interception". Are the same tables used for spotting fleets attempting to attack subs and other fleets on open ocean?





You are reading in absolute amounts.

When the chances of finding are 90% and you have 6 naval grps that's + ~6.2% only.

When the chances of finding are 5% and you have 6 naval grps you more than doubled your chances of success ~11% total

When the chances of finding are 5% and you have 6 naval grps split into 3 fleets you have ~22% chance to find with at least 1 naval group.

There are various ways to approach naval combat.

Just for clarification please
Naval groups are different than air groups then? The spot number is determined by the ocean square recon level and not distance to enemy fleet like with air? For example, if the ocean hex has a very low recon level (ie. weather could reduce the recon level of a hex) then the base spot number for those naval units attacking works out to 1 (very low recon).
Base 10 value
Ocean Hex
very low recon -9 Base of 1
low recon -7 Base of 3
medium -5 Base of 5
high -2 Base of 8
very high -0 Base of 10

I'll give a specific example now, 1CV,1BB,1CA,1DD group (with 2 OP) attack a 1BB Raider (-1 spot number mod) fleet group in mid ocean where the hex recon level is very low. So then the spot number is 0. (ie Base - very low recon hex - Raider Mode) which translates into a spot chance of 5%(from the table), then CV 10 naval air adds +3%, +1% for the enemy group, so this spot attempt generates 9% chance of being spotted. (approx 1 in 10). It gets a +1 spotting on the first OP, which raises the Naval ID from 0 to 1 of the BB Raider, so the spot number is now 1 which translates to 15% + 4% = 19% chance of being spotted (1 in 5) on the second OP.

Is this about right?






Is it +1% or +4% (1+1+1+1) for the naval groups?

+1% - the size of the attacking force doesn't matter, the +1% comes from the size of the enemy fleet (Each enemy naval grp p.82 manual).
This makes sense, a smaller fleet in open water is much harder to find, so a Navy trying to find that fleet will have to send out a lot of fleets, probably smaller is size to spot it, then hunt it down. This would allow for a larger search area.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/13/2020 6:19:28 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: Odds and Ends - 9/13/2020 8:46:11 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		@ago1000,
Thanks, I finally have this carrier air business squared away. I seem to think I like splitting my carriers and getting more shots, sometimes I get the +1 search result that helps subsequent attacks into hopefully gaining hits, seems like I have more luck making separate attacks when hunting subs.

(in reply to ago1000)
Post #: 23
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