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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Mod concept : Unholy Alliance

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Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 9/12/2020 11:22:17 AM

Evoken

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Joined: 10/23/2019
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Hello everyone , i am gonna start working on a mod where Allies carry on with Operation Pike in 1940(Plan to destroy Soviet oil fields to cripple Soviet Industry) , this leads to Soviet Union joining the war on the Axis side.

I am here to ask for your opinion on what events it would lead to , to give me more ideas on to develop the mod from.

Here are the assumptions i am going with , feel free to correct me on plot holes;

1)Not sure if UK would be invaded or not ; Although Soviet Union doesnt have a large navy , they have a large airforce and air superiority would give a chance for amphibious operations. However i believe US would help UK with a greater amount of equipment in an event like this maybe even join the war on Allied.

2)USA switches to War economy , calls for a united effort to defend North and South America continent. A defense treaty is signed with American countries each sending an expeditionary force relative to their size for the allied war effort.
USA switching to war economy in 1940 leads to all 24 Essex and 6 Midway class being put on queue maybe even all 5 Montana class too. Essex class would start arriving in 42 instead of 43.

Air production and R&D kicks in to production leading to planes arriving a year earlier.

3)War with Japan is inevitable , with USSR Pacific army ready to join the war.USA lend leases China , All Chinese units switch to US OOB , has %90 or more equipment and with 2 Tank divisions consisting of Stuart and Lee tanks.Up to 1mil supplies at China
Maybe better airforce too ?

4)Key bases in the pacific front are ready for war. More troops , aircraft and forts.

5)Allies loses control of Northern Africa , Mediterranean Sea and Middle East. Stops Axis advance in Mid Africa;
Allied troops arriving at Aden and Abadan will be shifted to Capetown. Since i cant code this it should be a house rule Allies dont use these bases untill 44.
All allied emergency reinforcements will start on the map

6)Invasion of India ; Germans from Iran border , Soviets from Afghanistan Border. Allies will be ready for Axis in the mountains , already dug in.

Scenario will use extended map , might need to learn how to extend more. 3 Bases will be added called Berlin , Rome , Moscow i cant make these bases off-map base so Allied player will need to act like they are off-map base and ignore them.

7) War will be extended all the way to 49 , also thinking about adding early 50's jets and ships

8)Soviet and German planes , is there a way of preventing them costing Heavy Industry points ? If not i will have to add more HI and fuel to Japan to compsate for them.

9)With a lot of resources being available from USSR for Japans use , would Japan build more ships and planes ? War with USA being certain would they invest in long range strat bomber technology like G5 , G8 and G10. (With B-29's being available a long with all other US aircraft 1 year earlier i think it might be fair to give Axis long range bombers)

10) German OOB and devices will be an issue , any help would be appreciated or maybe throw them out with an excuse and leave Indian invasion to Soviet army

I expect this project to take at least 6 months. It will not be 1 sided Axis wetdream. With USA ready for i suspect it can go either direction depending on the players. I also gotta ask for a lot of art modders permission to use their art , hopefully they will accept.

Post #: 1

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 9/12/2020 11:30:19 AM

Evoken

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Joined: 10/23/2019
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Oh 1 thing i forgot to add , armistice with France doesnt happen. France continues the fight from their colonies. Uncompleted French navy ships are transfered to US East coast and they are being built there

(in reply to Evoken)

Post #: 2

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 9/12/2020 2:08:50 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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Only if the ship has been launched and engines installed should the ship be transferred somewhere else to be completed. The better choice would be the United Kingdom until the US is actually involved.

The US may not help the Allies as much as you think since they are also aggressors and not just defending. Plus, they have to equip their military units.

How are all of the Lend Lease supplies and equipment going to get to China if their ports are occupied? Indo-China? Maybe more units go to US TO&E but not necessarily from US stocks.

There were also 400 Bren carrier type vehicles with 3 inch mortars that ended up in China. Not to mention Soviet tanks, enough for a brigade of T-26s I do believe.

Alma Alta to China, is that going to be defended?

The Soviets fighting the Chinese Communists?

More Indian units, or just have them sooner with higher replacements, with Independence after the war.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Evoken)

Post #: 3

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 9/12/2020 2:43:30 PM

Evoken

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Joined: 10/23/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Only if the ship has been launched and engines installed should the ship be transferred somewhere else to be completed. The better choice would be the United Kingdom until the US is actually involved.

I can imagine France paying USA to build the ship , from what i have read British shipyards were constantly full doubt they would have space for French ships

quote:

The US may not help the Allies as much as you think since they are also aggressors and not just defending. Plus, they have to equip their military units.

Could you elaborate

quote:

How are all of the Lend Lease supplies and equipment going to get to China if their ports are occupied? Indo-China? Maybe more units go to US TO&E but not necessarily from US stocks.

Through Burma and Indochina

quote:

There were also 400 Bren carrier type vehicles with 3 inch mortars that ended up in China. Not to mention Soviet tanks, enough for a brigade of T-26s I do believe.

I will look them up , thanks!

quote:

Alma Alta to China, is that going to be defended?

Good question , since i cant make Axis use the off map roads and bases i would need to add another base to be act as off map base , i will consider it

quote:

The Soviets fighting the Chinese Communists?

Another good question , i cant guess the Chinese Communist response maybe they would join Soviet troops or maybe they would fight against them , i will leave them as is.

quote:

More Indian units, or just have them sooner with higher replacements, with Independence after the war.

Independence after war is out my hands For the rest , thats the plan. A more prepared India for the war

Thanks for the input! :)

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 4

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 9/12/2020 4:11:17 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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Chinese T-26, maybe upgrade them later to M3 Stuarts.

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/463085-chinese-t-26-model-1935-1937/

Poorly written with misspellings but the information was there. Even if only a few were left, it would be able to change the unit TOE to something else. Think of Chinese Matildas when the Commonwealth phased most of them out!

Edit to include this for more info:

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/soviet/soviet_T26.php

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 9/12/2020 4:12:51 PM >

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Evoken)

Post #: 5

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 9/12/2020 4:49:36 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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Chinese mortar carriers:

quote:

3 inch Mortar Carrier (Aust): A design based on the 2 Pounder Carrier with a 3-inch mortar mounted in place of the 2 pounder. Designed to enable the mortar to have 360 degree traverse and to be fired either from the vehicle, or dismounted. 400 were produced and were ultimately sent as military aid to the Nationalist Chinese Army.

Also:

quote:

China: 1500 UCs supplied by Australia during the war,[13] with a sizeable number of these (about 400) being 3-inch mortar-carrier versions.[citation needed] The pro-Japanese Collaborationist Chinese Army also received carriers captured in Singapore by the Japanese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Carrier

More info on Chinese tanks:
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/china/chinese-tanks-1925-1950/

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 6

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 9/12/2020 5:04:49 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Only if the ship has been launched and engines installed should the ship be transferred somewhere else to be completed. The better choice would be the United Kingdom until the US is actually involved.

I can imagine France paying USA to build the ship , from what i have read British shipyards were constantly full doubt they would have space for French ships

If the US is having a greater expansion of the US Navy and done sooner, the US shipyards may be too full to do the work for another country.

quote:

The US may not help the Allies as much as you think since they are also aggressors and not just defending. Plus, they have to equip their military units.

Could you elaborate

Defend Democracy is fine. But if that democratic government initiates war? That would be the problem for FDR and Congress to justify.

quote:

How are all of the Lend Lease supplies and equipment going to get to China if their ports are occupied? Indo-China? Maybe more units go to US TO&E but not necessarily from US stocks.

Through Burma and Indochina

Okay, but how about when those dry up due to enemy action? Make some more buyable and put in a self imposed rule that their TOE can only upgrade in Inda after India receives so much supplies from the US, directly or indirectly.

quote:

There were also 400 Bren carrier type vehicles with 3 inch mortars that ended up in China. Not to mention Soviet tanks, enough for a brigade of T-26s I do believe.

I will look them up , thanks!

I did some but not the timing nor where they were shipped, whether to China itself or to India for the units there. Mobile artillery is nice even if it is a short ranged mortar. Think of those in an armoured unit.

quote:

Alma Alta to China, is that going to be defended?

Good question , since i cant make Axis use the off map roads and bases i would need to add another base to be act as off map base , i will consider it

Alma Alta is Soviet. Then there is grey road into China.

quote:

The Soviets fighting the Chinese Communists?

Another good question , i cant guess the Chinese Communist response maybe they would join Soviet troops or maybe they would fight against them , i will leave them as is.

Okay. The Soviets preferred the KMT anyway.

quote:

More Indian units, or just have them sooner with higher replacements, with Independence after the war.

Independence after war is out my hands For the rest , thats the plan. A more prepared India for the war

I know that you can't put that in other than as a note in the description. But that might eliminate the INA from the Japanese.

Thanks for the input! :)

You might also want to consider a slightly stronger OOB for the Filipinos since the Soviets are in the Axis. More defenses in Alaska as well.

Once the Germans get into India at Karachi, they might trigger the line of death reinforcements.

The Afghani's may not let the Soviets in peacefully.

Remember to pull out any Lend Lease from the Soviet Union as well. Provide some for this theatre, the rest for the other parts of the world.

Don't forget, the war in Europe will not end in May 1945

will the diversion of resources to the Pacific theatre.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Evoken)

Post #: 7

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 9/13/2020 2:12:11 AM

Evoken

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Joined: 10/23/2019
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quote:

You might also want to consider a slightly stronger OOB for the Filipinos since the Soviets are in the Axis. More defenses in Alaska as well.

Yeah i imagine a fortified Philippines for this scenario

quote:

Once the Germans get into India at Karachi, they might trigger the line of death reinforcements.

Scenario will start with all emergency reinforcements already on the map , i know if Axis lands at West Coast it pulls the plane arrival date forward by 6 months i dont know if an effect like that happens in India

quote:

The Afghani's may not let the Soviets in peacefully.

I suspect Axis wouldnt really respect neutrality of nations in middle east as it happened to other neutral countries

quote:

Remember to pull out any Lend Lease from the Soviet Union as well. Provide some for this theatre, the rest for the other parts of the world.

Yes i plan to switch Soviet Lend Lease to other Allied countries , possibly to China

quote:

Don't forget, the war in Europe will not end in May 1945 will the diversion of resources to the Pacific theatre.

War in Europe would be in massive scale i cant imagine the end date so it will need to be a bit more abstracted

quote:

Alma Alta is Soviet. Then there is grey road into China.

Due to editor limitations i cant switch Soviet Unions alliance so everything be under IJ flag. Axis also cant use the allied off map bases , i will need to put another base to the north to act as off-map base

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 8

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 9/13/2020 3:41:14 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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Switch the UK to Canada Land. Switch the UK to Japanese. But then again, if the Germans and Italians are in the Middle East, let them have Aden and switch all of Aden's units to Capetown - if they come in at all. Then somebody would have to capture Socotra (sp?) off Oman for the Axis.
(edit: This may not work. Try it with the editor, then run it and see if you can send ships there or even just home port them there.)

LSTs, xAKs and other Landing Craft to China? Better have more if not all of the actual Nationalist troops buyable. Not the warlords or the Chicoms, just the nationalist troops themselves.

As far as I know, no movement forward for Commonwealth air groups. Although you could speed up the Indian air units.

Again with no Lend Lease to the Soviets, fewer tanks and maybe no halftracks although the Soviets did have armoured trucks but then the Soviets would have to make their own trucks. Also their own transports so no C-47s nor any other Allied planes unless the Soviets made them and at a minimum had the plans before the British attacked the Soviets.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 9/13/2020 3:43:33 PM >

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Evoken)

Post #: 9

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 9/13/2020 4:13:07 PM

Evoken

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Joined: 10/23/2019
Status: offline

quote:

Switch the UK to Canada Land. Switch the UK to Japanese. But then again, if the Germans and Italians are in the Middle East, let them have Aden and switch all of Aden's units to Capetown - if they come in at all. Then somebody would have to capture Socotra (sp?) off Oman for the Axis.
(edit: This may not work. Try it with the editor, then run it and see if you can send ships there or even just home port them there.)

Like i cant change any alliance with editor , all of Axis will be under IJ . There is no way to give axis off-map access and Alfred confirmed it on my other post

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 10

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 2/27/2021 7:33:48 PM

29000Kevin

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Randomly found my way into this page, I noticed your online right now so I'll just ask if their has been any update on the status of mod your working on.

If its still being worked on then I might come and provide my knowledge that I have with the Soviet Union and the global situation around the planet in the 1940s.

(in reply to Evoken)

Post #: 11

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 2/27/2021 8:05:05 PM

Evoken

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Changing Soviets to Japanese side doesnt really work with engine limitations.I am working on a different version , here is a rough draft for new idea;

Tripartite Pact rough draft;

Lore bulletpoints
In an alternative universe , Germany builds a much better intelligence and spy network compared to what they had.
Learning the real size and capabilities of the Soviet Union early Germans realize they wont be able to achieve their invasion goals and enter negotiations with Japanese.
Germany , Italy and Japan turn Tripartite Defensive pact into full Alliance
Germans agree to delay the invasion of Soviet Union to the Spring of 1943 and focus their attention to Mediteranian/Africa/Middle East and eventually launching invasion of India , Japanese in return agree to join Soviet Union invasion in Spring of 1943
Germans setup a trap for British intelligence by leaking old invasion plans through a double agent.
These plans reach all the way to Stalin , being a paranoid person he is , he believes British are trying to drag Soviets into war by sending him these plans.
Supposed invasion time comes and passes but German division numbers on Soviet Border keeps getting lower as Germany starts a conquest to the South.
Germany invades/convinces Spain, Turkey , Iraq , Iran. By going through these countries they secure Northern Africa , Middle East and due to lack of supplies Gibraltar and Malta. India is open for invasion but Commonwealth saw it coming , they are dug in and ready
This leads Stalin to believe Germany has no interest for invading Soviet Union.
Germany convinces Soviet Union to make a huge trade deal with Japanese if they pay above average market prices , Japanese agree due to Allied blockade. (Monthly Soviet Shipment should arrive in Manchuria untill 3/43)
an event happening in early war leads USA to prepare for war earlier (Due to Major US warship sunk ? USS Ranger decent canditate ) (How early ?) (Earlier , Essex , Fletcher , F6F , Avenger , SB2C , Larger US Garrisons, everything? )

Game design notes ;
Axis;
Due to engine limitations , Axis cant have off-map base. Workaround ; Add on-map bases named such as: Rome (naval arrival) , Berlin (land and air force arrival) these bases would not be targeted by Allied player with house rule
Maybe place very heavy static flak so if Allied player attacks by "mistake" gets punished
Staging point for Italian navy (Mogadishu) , Germany Army and air force(Quetta)
Axis supply and fuel needs to arrive with monthly supply convoy mechanic , these convoys would stop by (14/05/43 Mediteranian convoy lane opening date)
Capture of Middle East lets Italian navy leave med , add them
Invasion force strength ? 12 German divisions , artillery , hq , garrison force , base forces , flak. Half of it withdraws a month before Soviet invasion ?
German forces should be perma restricted so they do not spawn at Tokyo if they are destroyed
Trade deal with Soviets allow Japan build ? ;
1)Up to 50 extra DD's , Shinano built similiar to Midway , Heavy Bombers ([G5N1 0 Armor , decent payload 1/42 Arv Date] , [G5N2 1 armor , decent payload 3/43 AD], [G8N1 1 armor , good payload 11/44 AD][G8N2 , MXY7 Ohka , 3/45AD]
2)18 I-400 late 1944 ? Specialized float fighter , dive bomber , torpedo bomber to form a submarine carrier force

IJA Divisions equipped by Germany to fight Soviets ? 10+ with TOE changes at 1/43
Possibly tier IX-X ships from Wows for late war
Couple heavy tank battalions for 1943 , maybe panzer division for 1941

Allies;

Anything arriving at Aden and Abadan before 14/05/43 should start at Capetown
Force Z deployed to Karachi ?
Fortress India , india should be able to hold against both Germans and Japanese for at least a year
Early US preparation = earlier US everything
China starts with more supply and equipment ?
%50 Dud rate for Mk14
US production speed up by 6 months

Misc;
Scenario will use extended map
Effective front armor + side armor /2 = tank armor value

I dont know how long this one would take , but its a lot of work might take up to a year

(in reply to 29000Kevin)

Post #: 12

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 3/1/2021 2:32:22 AM

Dan1977

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Evoken,
I like this latest alternate war scenario a lot more than the earlier 'UK committing suicide' scenario. You need to think about the Dutch situation also. Do they get US equipment more aggressively than historical? The weak link in this latest scenario is India & Burma. The British hold on these was historically tenuous, and this new version would make it worse for Britain. I offer a possible extra thread: Hitler encourages Stalin to seize Iran (including Abadan). Stalin gains the all important naval base (Britain loses it). Stalin shifts much of the Soviet Navy there, believing Hitler's false promise to assist in taking India later. I don't think Hitler would commit forces to take India. He would prefer the Italians, Soviets & Japanese to do the dirty work. The Axis & Soviet Union would be vying to partition India in ways similar to what occurred a century earlier in China. The garrison requirements for Axis occupation should be very high. Stalin could come to an agreement with Mussolini to allow Italian ships to operate out of Iran or Socotra That would require the British to be defeated in the Med & Egypt. Another thing to consider, if the Germans don't attack the USSR in June 1941, then the Germans would be taking more aggressive action against the British in the Med & the Atlantic. This would imply higher losses for all sorts of British & Commonwealth ships, air, troops, etc, and less availability in Asia/Pacific. As a consequence of the loss of Australian units in North Africa, the Australians would ask the United States for assistance earlier? Remember the Destroyers for Bases deal in the Atlantic? Could a similar deal be made with New Zealand & Australia? Not destroyers, but subs or aircraft for OZ & NZ bases? Just some ideas.

(in reply to Evoken)

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RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 3/1/2021 5:19:37 AM

seanmac456

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So me and Evoken were talking about it DMs before he posted the update to the mod idea here.
Evoken didn't want to kill much if any of the British fleet off screen without player involvement. My suggestion was the superior German intelligence broke the codes and saw Mattapan coming so the battle was more bloody, the British still would have likely won, RN night fighting is no joke.

For the US Evoken wanted the Standards forward deployed as presence stuff in the DEI, Australia, New Zeeland ETC. If the US is taking this approach then the carriers and modern battleships would be based in PI so that would be very interesting. I was trying to convivence him to do the 31 knot Montanas for a Yamato response but he made the wrong choice of 18 inch guns. I am also drawing up some designs the USN might do when they decide they are preparing for war and screw the treaties.

One thing that I will also play with is a project 1047 with Alaska guns cause that sound fun

(in reply to Dan1977)

Post #: 14

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 3/1/2021 10:10:31 AM

29000Kevin

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I will be making a big post on examining the situation's that are happening in the campaign and be focus on what the people historically wanted.

We have to remember the politics of the situation in the 1940s, It will all fun and games until you try to convince Congress that we must go a total war economy because some guy called Churchill really screwed up and that WE are supposed to be the ones who cleans up his mess, The United Kingdom is going to be in so much debt in this game, And to make things worse the Empire already collapsing, the American Banks are going to be pissed off once they realize that the British won't be able to pay them back, this could become a disastrous Financial crash if the Banks had lend too much money to the British only to find a bankrupt UK in the late 1940s.

(in reply to seanmac456)

Post #: 15

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 3/1/2021 10:46:00 AM

Evoken

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Dont focus too much into politics of the time. My goal is make a fun and balanced mod with part of German army , airforce and Italian navy in Pacific.

Its all what if scenario where we can only guestimate responses and butterfly effect takes it from there

I would love to hear suggestions that would effect gameplay ,also i could use some help for writing the lore as i suck at writing a story

(in reply to 29000Kevin)

Post #: 16

RE: Mod concept : Unholy Alliance - 3/4/2021 7:00:19 PM

Cavalry Corp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken

Dont focus too much into politics of the time. My goal is make a fun and balanced mod with part of German army , airforce and Italian navy in Pacific.

Its all what if scenario where we can only guestimate responses and butterfly effect takes it from there I would love to hear suggestions that would effect gameplay ,also i could use some help for writing the lore as i suck at writing a story

Yes a fun and balanced mod with alternate equipment

(in reply to Evoken)

Post #: 17

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Mod concept : Unholy Alliance

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