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RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/15/2021 7:08:36 AM

stockwellpete

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Espejo

Not so much difference at the moment. I still feel that there are is only one valid tech route...Artillery ...Artillery ...Artillery... You just cant fall behind in artillery tech. I really love this game aut it is in the end all around artillery. Is till feel that the LV1 Artillery feels right. Atillery 2 simply destroys even entrechned units essenatially adavances like tanks are just a toy. wors you can go alterantive tech ways like planes or naval as a priority as artillery is so devasting as soon as it hits lvl2

Yes, I think you are right. IN SP artillery still seems too powerful. If you try to follow what Germany did on the Western Front and fight defensively there from late 1914 onwards, you still get blasted to death in 1916.

I think the linking of Logistics to Shell Production was a very good idea, but could you go a bit further with Tech linkages? When the UK rapidly increased shell production in 1915/16 they initially suffered from a very high proportion of dud shells. There were major weaknesses in the production process. So could Production Tech be linked to shells as well? And then there is the question of aircraft reconnaissance being crucial for artillery spotting, so could an aircraft Tech like Long Distance flying be similarly linked?

I actually disagree about artillery at the beginning of the war in the game. Given that artillery units are an abstracted way of representing a nation's fire power, then those units must also represent the heavier guns and howitzers. So I would have them able to de-entrench from the start. But I wouldn't have them automatically de-entrenching every shot, and I wouldn't have them both killing and de-entrenching every shot either. We need to remember for all the shells fired on the Western Front during the war, the trench lines only moved about 5 miles, apart from when the Germans retreated to the Hindenburg line, so it was a very "blunt instrument" as some historians have called it.

But what really puzzles me is that infantry units are able to de-entrench every turn of combat as well, even at the beginning of the war. Why is this? Yes, they did have field artillery integrated into their formations, and this sometimes would have included some of the bigger guns, but basically they were not able to destroy trench networks. The trajectory of most field artillery was fairly flat and they were mostly firing shrapnel shells, not high explosives. Only howitzers, or trench mortars would be able to get direct hits on trenches to "de-entrench". It was only as the war progressed that high explosive shells became increasingly used as the number of heavy guns increased. By then German defences had become very sophisticated (use of concrete, depth of shelters much increased etc) and German infantry doctrine had evolved so that not all their soldiers were in the front line trenches when the bombardments started anyway.

< Message edited by stockwellpete -- 3/15/2021 7:11:23 AM >

(in reply to Espejo)

Post #: 91

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/15/2021 4:25:19 PM

BillRunacre

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De-entrenching represents a weakening of the defender's position, so it could for example be that their front line trenches have been stormed by a bayonet charge or bombing parties, overrun by tanks, or they have been pounded by artillery.

Artillery units are concentrations of guns, including a core of heavy guns, but at the start of the war most would be field artillery, as production of heavy guns (and their deployment from fortresses to the front lines) took time.

So their increased de-entrenchment abilities reflects their greater potential to damage enemy positions as the war progresses, as field artillery (despite remaining numerous) find themselves serving more and more alongside heavier guns and howitzers.

< Message edited by BillRunacre -- 3/15/2021 4:28:09 PM >

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Post #: 92

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/15/2021 5:28:11 PM

stockwellpete

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

De-entrenching represents a weakening of the defender's position, so it could for example be that their front line trenches have been stormed by a bayonet charge or bombing parties, overrun by tanks, or they have been pounded by artillery.

Yes, understood. But the scale of the de-entrenchment is just too much, in my opinion. In the game it is like the whole defensive system has been obliterated. The hexes represent 30 square km's, don't they? So to reduce entrenchment to zero in a hex means that everything has gone in that area. By all means reduce it by 1 or 2, but not by 4 or 5. The problem for me is that in the real war the defenders very often had the advantage and therefore the attacker needed to fight "wearing down" battles (attritional warfare) a lot of the time. But, in the game, most of the advantages are with the attacker because they can just blast the living daylights out of one hex and then take it.

quote:

Artillery units are concentrations of guns, including a core of heavy guns, but at the start of the war most would be field artillery, as production of heavy guns (and their deployment from fortresses to the front lines) took time.

So their increased de-entrenchment abilities reflects their greater potential to damage enemy positions as the war progresses, as field artillery (despite remaining numerous) find themselves serving more and more alongside heavier guns and howitzers.

Yes, also understood. There are very few artillery units at the start of the war. The Germans have 1 unit in August 1914, which is fairly useless as it is. When does the second artillery unit appear? Is it in 1915? Which country has it? France maybe? So having the first units able to de-entrench (occasionally, not every shot) would not affect the balance too much.

I agree that there should be a gradual increase in their de-entrenchment power, but I am not convinced that the actual guns themselves were a lot more powerful in 1918 than they were in 1914. What changed was the proportion of heavier guns/howitzers produced; the number of shells produced and their eventual improvement in quality; and a real change in artillery doctrine including creeping barrages, flash spotting and more effective counter-battery fire.

So I think there is a case for just one level of Tech increase for Artillery Warfare (make it more expensive); a slowing down of Shell production (max 2 chits at any one time) and a further linkage to Techs (Production Technology definitely, Long Range Aircraft possibly).

< Message edited by stockwellpete -- 3/15/2021 5:29:07 PM >

(in reply to BillRunacre)

Post #: 93

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/17/2021 2:08:13 PM

stockwellpete

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Just brainstorming now and I appreciate that some of these ideas might not be appropriate for a game that has been out for a year and has to match up with the two WWW2 games.

In terms of linking Tech to Artillery effectiveness, what if the maximum number of investment chits for Shell/Gas Production was restricted to just one from the start of the game, but could be increased to two if Production Technology Tech reached three? This would be a way of avoiding the issue of "dud" shells by saying that all the shells available to Artillery units would work properly. I would start with artillery getting a maximum of 3 shells, not 5, and then adding 1 for each level of Logistics Tech. Stocks of Artillery shells would be replenished at the default rate until Production Tech reached level 3. Then it would increase by 1 per turn.

Maximum travel distance for "operating moves" that begin and end on a railway line. A limit to the number of "operating" turns allowed by each power per turn (maybe highly industrialised countries like France and Germany can have 3, Turkey and Serbia, on the other hand, might have just 1. This could be increased by 1 if Industrial Tech reached level 4. Artillery units operated can only take a maximum of 3 shells with them.

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Post #: 94

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/24/2021 11:01:31 PM

grenadier98

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I've modified my campaign so, that artillery starts with just a maximum of three shells + logistics level, which will finally result in eight shells with logistics level five. I've also reduced the number of chits assignable to one for Artillery Weapons and to two for Gas/Shell Production. The US still has her old values. In the end this will not help to remove the abillity to completly destroy the deepest trenchs of an enemy unit in one turn and reduce its morale and readiness down to almost no existence - a feat that the real artillery was not able to achieve to suh a degree. But I've no idea how reduce the artilleries ability of doing this and don't make it useless in the process... At leeast this will slow it down a little.
Maybe it would help to reduce the number of available artillies for the UK, France, Austria, Russia and the Ottomans to two and for Italy to one. As far as I know the German Army had allways more heavy artillery at the western front than the French and the UK together. In 1914 the French had almost no heavy artillery at all.

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Post #: 95

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/25/2021 4:52:16 AM

Chernobyl

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grenadier did you consider nerfing Logistics tech also? As in increase the cost and lower the chit limit? Could make tech choices a bit more interesting.

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Post #: 96

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/25/2021 7:45:55 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grenadier98

I've modified my campaign so, that artillery starts with just a maximum of three shells + logistics level, which will finally result in eight shells with logistics level five. I've also reduced the number of chits assignable to one for Artillery Weapons and to two for Gas/Shell Production. The US still has her old values. In the end this will not help to remove the abillity to completly destroy the deepest trenchs of an enemy unit in one turn and reduce its morale and readiness.

Yeah..some of us been looking at a 1 chit max on Artillery research. It kind of seems like a parallel move similar to WaW..where some potentially uber tech is restricted to 1 for pacing and tempo that needs to stretch over the course of the historical war, ( quite a few game turns and years!). I personally have gotten warm to this idea lately. I think why a lot of these Arty change idea's have been batted along from inception around Dec 2019 is to have both SP and particularly MP's go into 1918 a lot more frequently.

Its was the main underlying reason for PBEM matches to end by mid 1916 commonly in the earlier versions between two opponents that were fairly equal with knowledge of the game mechanics. I believe the recent patch with logistics tied to shell production is a plus...but your modification idea mirrors quite closely with others posted here. There's a lot good discussion and ideas here on the main forum and the Mod section.

Chernobyl's additional idea he just posted about increasing the cost of logistics and and lowering the chit limit also is intriguing. Logistics as you probably already know is super important when tied to HQ units and their supply..and so when players are investing in logistics for boosting shell units..they are also boosting facet of HQ's abilities.

Before the latest version linking logistics to shell limits, it was a rather neglected research with SC-WW1...the opposite of WaW or WiE. Now its regained its importance, a very welcome change imho. Kudo's for Bill and Hubert for the Logistics tied to Shell limit idea and implementation!

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 3/25/2021 7:57:35 AM >

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Post #: 97

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/25/2021 8:49:03 AM

Espejo

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Its not about the to just slow the artilery research. Otherwise everybody puts one 1 chit into it and we are done. I would like to be able to explore different technologies. Artilery has its place but then planes and tanks and naval etc . should have its place. I dont have a good solution how but at the moment its simply a no brainer to buy as many artilery pieces as soon as possible and research it as fast as you can.

(in reply to OldCrowBalthazor)

Post #: 98

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/25/2021 8:59:51 AM

stockwellpete

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grenadier98

I've modified my campaign so, that artillery starts with just a maximum of three shells + logistics level, which will finally result in eight shells with logistics level five. I've also reduced the number of chits assignable to one for Artillery Weapons and to two for Gas/Shell Production. The US still has her old values. In the end this will not help to remove the abillity to completly destroy the deepest trenchs of an enemy unit in one turn and reduce its morale and readiness down to almost no existence - a feat that the real artillery was not able to achieve to suh a degree. But I've no idea how reduce the artilleries ability of doing this and don't make it useless in the process... At leeast this will slow it down a little.

Yes, I think these are very good changes and should be implemented in the game. What I am trying in my new mod is increasing the Defence value of Infantry Corps from 3 to 4 and removing their ability to De-entrench each attack. Instead these attacks cause a modest amount of Demoralisation. So now only Artillery can De-entrench. Not sure at all yet whether this will solve the problem of trenches being destroyed in the later game, but there must be a point where I will het the sweet spot.

quote:

Maybe it would help to reduce the number of available artillies for the UK, France, Austria, Russia and the Ottomans to two and for Italy to one. As far as I know the German Army had allways more heavy artillery at the western front than the French and the UK together. In 1914 the French had almost no heavy artillery at all.

Whatever numbers you come up with, I think there has to be a balance between Entente (UK/Fr) and Central Power (Ge) artillery on the Western Front. At Verdun the Germans had more guns deployed, at the Somme the British and French did, but in neither case was that superiority decisive. There needs to be a greater chance in the game for the Western Front to become stalemated, like in the real war, so that the decisive events between 1915 and 1917 happen elsewhere e.g. accelerating collapse of fighting ability of Austria-Hungary, Russia and Ottoman Turkey.

(in reply to grenadier98)

Post #: 99

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/25/2021 9:27:03 AM

grenadier98

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

grenadier did you consider nerfing Logistics tech also? As in increase the cost and lower the chit limit? Could make tech choices a bit more interesting.

That's a good idea. Haven't thought about it. Germany, France and the UK start with level 2 researched and the UK is allready on their way to the third level. So the "main artillery nations" have an advantage there, which is reasonable. Did you nerf Logistics? I wonder how this should be done exactly. Maybe just limit the amount of placabale chits and not touch the price, because this would be "unfair" to other nations?

(in reply to Chernobyl)

Post #: 100

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/25/2021 9:36:41 AM

grenadier98

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

Whatever numbers you come up with, I think there has to be a balance between Entente (UK/Fr) and Central Power (Ge) artillery on the Western Front. At Verdun the Germans had more guns deployed, at the Somme the British and French did, but in neither case was that superiority decisive. There needs to be a greater chance in the game for the Western Front to become stalemated, like in the real war, so that the decisive events between 1915 and 1917 happen elsewhere e.g. accelerating collapse of fighting ability of Austria-Hungary, Russia and Ottoman Turkey.

Naturally the side which prepared and conducted an offensive concentrated their artillery in that given sector. I was talking about the overall amount off heavy artillery and these numbers are pretty clear. I think this is not refelceted by the current build limits. But I've to admit that I have no idea how many heavy guns these three nations had on the other fronts.
I agree, it's difficult to don't mess the gamebalance be changing the build limits. That's why I am afraid off and haven't done yet.

(in reply to stockwellpete)

Post #: 101

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/25/2021 10:13:43 AM

grenadier98

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

Yes, I think these are very good changes and should be implemented in the game. What I am trying in my new mod is increasing the Defence value of Infantry Corps from 3 to 4 and removing their ability to De-entrench each attack. Instead these attacks cause a modest amount of Demoralisation. So now only Artillery can De-entrench. Not sure at all yet whether this will solve the problem of trenches being destroyed in the later game, but there must be a point where I will het the sweet spot.

I think the deentrenching ability of infantry reflects their ability to storm and break in the enemy trenches during an attack. Removing this ability might have a big influence.
I'm not an expert in WW1 knowledge. As far as I know there were many attempts to come up with something new to break the stalemate. Poison gas, tanks, the undermining of trenches and so on, but the front almost didn't move at all. Wasn't it the use of Stormtrooper Tactics during the German offensive in 1918 which got the front moving again? These offensives were partially succesful on a tactical level, but on the strategical level the German Army couldn't cope with the losses anymore compared with the additional US troops for the Entente. So ironically it would have been smarter not to break the stalemate at all. But whatever it was, for the first time since the of fall/autumn (as a non native english speaker I always forget which one is AE and BE and which one should be used on forums

) of 1914 the front was moving again. So in the end the infantry broke the stalemate.

Maybe the artillery shouldn't be able to deentrench at all or just to a limited amount. I tried this in a hot seat and the impact of firing eight to ten shells on a heavily entrenched (level 6) corps was still so signicant that it could still be destroyed with consective corps attacks with very little losses on the attackers side.
Another idea is to limit the amount of attacks a single artillery can do in one turn. Right now its limit is its stocked shells.

(in reply to stockwellpete)

Post #: 102

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 3/25/2021 10:48:17 AM

stockwellpete

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grenadier98

I think the deentrenching ability of infantry reflects their ability to storm and break in the enemy trenches during an attack. Removing this ability might have a big influence.

Yes, I agree. But there wasn't just one line of trenches, so even if they took the front line there would be at least two more lines of trenches to take. This is where we hit the problem of scale in the game. The size of the hexes represent about 30 square kilometres, I believe, and this size would cover the entire depth of the front line and some of the support networks as well. So for defending units to be completely de-entrenched, as happens very frequently in the game, is to say that the defenders have suffered an absolute military catastrophe. Maybe one way of representing this a bit better in the game would be to say that infantry attacks can only de-entrench a hex by 1 level in a turn (by that I mean attacks by 4 infantry units would still only reduce the trench level by one)? And that any other de-entrenchment has to be done by artillery.

quote:

Maybe the artillery shouldn't be able to deentrench at all or just to a limited amount. I tried this in a hot seat and the impact of firing eight to ten shells on a heavily entrenched (level 6) corps was still so signicant that it could still be destroyed with consective corps attacks with very little losses on the attackers side.
Another idea is to limit the amount of attacks a single artillery can do in one turn. Right now its limit is its stocked shells.

Yes, a limited amount of de-entrenchment would be good. Maybe an artillery barrage could only destroy half the trench levels (rounded down) in a hex, so that it would make no sense at all to keep on blasting the same hex. Or, also say that artillery cannot de-entrench and destroy strength points with the same shot, so once the de-entrenchment level for that hex had been reached the attacking player would be facing diminishing returns from subsequent artillery fire (because any subsequent de-entrench result would be disregarded and count as a "miss".).

There are a number of interesting ways of addressing this problem, but at the moment, even if you restrict the number of shells that artillery can have by linking that to Logistics Tech, it is still possible from 1915 onwards to line up 2 artillery units on the same target and blast it to oblivion.

< Message edited by stockwellpete -- 3/25/2021 10:51:01 AM >

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Post #: 103

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 4/14/2021 8:50:35 PM

mdsmall

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After reading this thread, I have started thinking about how to experiment with some of the changes to artillery discussed here. But first, I need to know what are the actual combat effects of artillery at all three levels of Artillery Weapons (0, 1, 2) in the standard game.

I can see in the Editor the combat strength, de-entrenchment and demoralization effects at artillery at level 0. How much do these respective factors increase at level 1 and level 2 artillery weapons? Is there any way that you can modify the benefits of higher levels of research for artillery (or any of the other weapons techs)?

Also, where in the Editor does the increase in combat effectiveness from spotting by Recon Bombers come in? Is that modifiable too in the Editor?

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Post #: 104

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 4/14/2021 8:55:49 PM

Bavre

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To look it up start a hotseat Ludendorff, there you will have the max tech in most stuff already in round 1.

Use the production screen to go through the different tech levels. Only thing that has slightly different stats there is the standard infantry afaik.

No idea how to change the values via editor, though.

< Message edited by Bavre -- 4/14/2021 8:58:34 PM >

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Post #: 105

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 4/15/2021 8:14:32 AM

BillRunacre

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If you go to Campaign -> Edit Country Data -> Edit Research -> Advanced -> Upgrades -> Upgrade Increments

Then you can review and edit the benefits received by research.

The Recon Bombers' effect on improving artillery effectiveness is hard coded so cannot be edited.

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Post #: 106

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 4/25/2021 10:05:15 PM

Narisomo

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quote:

There are a number of interesting ways of addressing this problem, but at the moment, even if you restrict the number of shells that artillery can have by linking that to Logistics Tech, it is still possible from 1915 onwards to line up 2 artillery units on the same target and blast it to oblivion.

Verdun should definitely not be as easy to take as it currently is, even with three artilleries.

Some idea:
There is a probability of de-entrechment that decreases with each shot. This reflects that the ground is already destroyed and that there are more craters and dust and smoke. Maybe in addition the number of shots should be limited to 3, which also solves the problem of having to watch the opponent firing the artillery for two minutes. (A battleship can only fire once, even if it does not move).

< Message edited by Narisomo -- 4/25/2021 10:12:12 PM >

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Post #: 107

RE: Adjusting Artillery - 4/26/2021 7:43:01 AM

shri

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There are a lot of things that do not happen in the game. Trying to force specific events is futile. No russian armies suicide into East prussia or french armies suicide into Alsace forts stuff happens.

So, making verdun stronger than it is unwanted. What the french should aim is to get level 1 artillery by the time it falls and keep trying to retake it. That will be the real VERDUN campaign.

(in reply to Narisomo)

Post #: 108