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Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/13/2020 11:24:36 AM

Octavian

Posts: 65
Joined: 11/29/2019
Status: offline

For some weeks now I notice this forum getting quieter and quieter..
As a big admirer of Vics work I must say, I am very dissapointed with this game. This results from reading the manual (thoroughly) and playing a couple of hours. I feel like there is a very small enthusiastic group of supporters but as a whole the community doesn�t get into this game and I am not surprised, I have to say. My personal main criticism is focussing around two points: (sorry about my english, my native language is german).
1. AI plays with very different rules (supply, streets, etc.)and according to many forum posts the very open nature of the game is simply too much for any AI to be a proper opponent at the end of the day (which may be true now and in the future albeit gamers are having had and still have wet dreams about superhuman AI in the future, that MUST fail, which everyone knows who is really concerned with the matter of AI).
2. There are so many subsystems in the game, that often play a minor, but sometimes also a major role, that even an enthusiastic player, willing to learn, is left with a feeling of never being able to really get into a state of really knowing and controlling all aspects of the game - and has little idea even, if this is now a marginal problem or might be winning/loosing him his game. This is NO FUN and in my eyes - sorry Vic - bad design, which I hate saying, since I really enjoy your older games A LOT and can see through all the genetics of this game because of my experience with f.e. DC-Series.
My conclusion: I nevertheless liked supporting your work Vic by buying this game, but I would love to see you turning shifting back your energy to the DC series (oh yes, an african campaign, please!!)

Post #: 1

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/13/2020 2:23:03 PM

solops

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline

Don't know about any of that. This is one of the most addictive games I've played since Civ4. Needs some UI/Data feedback improvements, but Vic has said he is ironing out serious bugs before he diverts to QOL.

_____________________________

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand

(in reply to Octavian)

Post #: 2

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/13/2020 2:32:06 PM

eheiser

Posts: 57
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline

I have to disagree about the FUN aspect. I am enjoying it very much and have played it longer and more frequently than any other game in the last several years. What AI isn't eventually predictable, but this one is more than adequate to learn what to expect from the systems. Now I am in a multiplayer game and it is fantastic! I agree that I will "never being able to really get into a state of really knowing and controlling all aspects of the game" but for me it is a plus to continue to be surprised and challenged.

(in reply to Octavian)

Post #: 3

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/13/2020 2:43:01 PM

nadia911

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline

I have been continuously playing SE since its launch. Long, medium and short games, in general I have had fun as it has not since the time of Alpha Centauri, I recognize that at first it was difficult for me to handle the logistics, until I understood how it works, no I agree with your opinion, but I respect it.
Regards
Excuse my english

(in reply to eheiser)

Post #: 4

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/13/2020 8:46:00 PM

AKicebear

Posts: 132
Joined: 7/26/2014
Status: offline

I'm playing a hour or so a day. I quite like that the AI isn't forced to play by the same rules - I find that in 4X which impose this, it inevitably leads to a weak AI or ultra simplistic mechanics. While the latter isn't inherently bad, I do enjoy a complex mechanics game, and see a asymmetric AI as a worthwhile trade off to get that.

I'm really enjoying the game; it captures a sci-fi atmosphere that few other 4X do, and its mechanics are interesting to learn. Whether it lasts for years, as some other amazing 4X rarely do, is yet to be see - but it's off to a good start.

(in reply to nadia911)

Post #: 5

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/13/2020 10:35:34 PM

eddieballgame

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/29/2011
Status: offline

Not that it matters, but I completely disagree with the opinion of the 'op' per the 'fun factor'.
BTW...this game has received the most 'pc game time' since it came out on June 4th of any other title I own, for me. (& I already have too many

)

< Message edited by eddieballgame -- 10/13/2020 10:37:21 PM >

(in reply to AKicebear)

Post #: 6

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/14/2020 12:09:09 AM

Philo32b

Posts: 94
Joined: 7/9/2012
Status: offline

There are some needed quality-of-life elements of the game still needed, to give player the right information they need at the right time. The game floods the player with much information, but still there are some things that I can never seem to find to know how to make a certain decision. But despite this, the game is fun and engaging. There is indeed a lengthy learning curve, but I feel as though I understand the sub-systems enough to play and enjoy the game.

I disagree about the AI needing to play by the same rules as the player. I understand that many players very much want this, but I can't quite understand why they do. When I play a game like this, I want a challenging and immersive experience. I want to feel as though I am playing an intelligent opponent. Of course I know it isn't, but if the game is good, you will fool yourself into believing it during the game. To get that feeling it is not required for the AI to play by the same rules. I also don't dig into what differences the AI gets, so it isn't rubbed in my face. (Although, I can't help notice that they build a lot more roads than I do.)

I think the quieter forum is two things: players finally getting up to speed on the game. And also other high profile games coming out and distracting players. (I'm thinking of a certain game from the Middle Ages.)

(in reply to eddieballgame)

Post #: 7

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/14/2020 9:23:43 AM

GazBot

Posts: 84
Joined: 7/12/2020
Status: offline

This is by far one of the most deep and complex games Ive ever played (And Ive been playing a while - since UFO Enemy unknown!!!)

I read the manual thoroughly. I tried playing some initial games single player - I couldnt get past turn 20 - as I just got frustrated as I couldnt get a handle on all the various elements.

Then I jumped into a 4 player MP game and viola - we are now into Turn 87!!!!

I found I needed the commitment of being in a group to stick thru it. You cant just reload the last saved game when it goes bad, you make loads of silly mistakes and then have to work out and mitigate them and as the other guys are in a similar boat it works well.

I think I now have a pretty grasp grasp of all the fundamental subsystems - this has happened over the last 2-3 months with mainly 1 turn per day.

Its a hard, complex game no doubt about it - but it actually all works very well....I dont think we have come across any major failings in our current game. Id agree the manual is perhaps not the best - but it would be hard anyway due to the depth and connectedness of the various game elements.

You get pretty good feedback from the UI, not to say some final polish would not be welcomed.

In short jump into a MP game or two and treat it like a learning curve....Even if your loosing youll still learn loads. Even when it seems your in a loosing situation force yourself to try and problem solve thru it. A lot may come down to luck as well - where you start can have a big effect!!!! All empires are certainly not equal!!!! Strategic planning is really rewarded - you can win at the tactical and operational level - only to snooker yourself for the longer war. I was about to throw in the towel when I was on the back foot but stayed the course and possibly have stabilized the situation and all this from been one turn away from being knocked out of the game!!!!

The fact that you get this depth and complexity in a flexible sandbox environment and it all seems to work is just unbelievable!!!!

I ended up printing of the manual in the end so I could refer to it as I play my daily turn...

< Message edited by GazBot -- 10/14/2020 9:32:25 AM >

(in reply to Philo32b)

Post #: 8

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/14/2020 4:56:26 PM

stryc

Posts: 174
Joined: 7/30/2012
Status: offline

The weak AI started to push me away from this game; the more I learned how to play the more I saw what the AI can't do. (In my view the AI of any game should, at minimum, make an effort to play the game's core mechanics. I won't go on as it's all been talked about already but suffice to sat that the AI is weak even in simple wargaming terms. Can't help but feel that the game obfuscates an awful lot of its flaws behind complex player-only mechanisms.)

Then CK3 came out and that was that!

(in reply to GazBot)

Post #: 9

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/14/2020 6:31:05 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc

The weak AI started to push me away from this game; the more I learned how to play the more I saw what the AI can't do. (In my view the AI of any game should, at minimum, make an effort to play the game's core mechanics. I won't go on as it's all been talked about already but suffice to sat that the AI is weak even in simple wargaming terms. Can't help but feel that the game obfuscates an awful lot of its flaws behind complex player-only mechanisms.)

Then CK3 came out and that was that!

So you moan about A.I then went to a game that basically lets you win?

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(in reply to stryc)

Post #: 10

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/14/2020 10:48:01 PM

GalianGadris

Posts: 2
Joined: 10/14/2020
Status: offline

I completely agree with some others above, esp since AI War is one of my fav games. The unending drive and need for most players to have an AI opponent that plays by the exact same rules is in some ways understandable (a fair game) but its a fallacy that will never happen. Even when it does, it results in horrible weak AI that never works well without bonuses. I love the idea of the AI playing by different rules to make it more effective and more of a challenging opponent, as long as those rules are fair. For the vast majority of people, what they can't see (the AI rules) doesn't bother them or even something they are aware of as long as the end result (a good challenging game) is good.

Especially given the development time needed to make an AI play by the same rules in a game this deep and widespread (systems wise), for a single dev, is just realistically unachievable surely, without a massive investment of time that most players wouldn't appreciate since to the average person how the AI plays and its rules are not really a problem as long as its functional and fun. Its a much better use of time in my opinion for a single dev to work on QoL, bugs, features etc.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 11

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/15/2020 8:11:01 AM

scottrossi

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/4/2020
Status: offline

this is one of the best games i've ever played. as i've gotten better at it, i've been popping in less and less, mostly just to see if there are new updates. i'm still playing the game frequently as time allows, but just not spending time on the forums.

(in reply to GalianGadris)

Post #: 12

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/15/2020 9:42:16 AM

GalianGadris

Posts: 2
Joined: 10/14/2020
Status: offline

Completely agree. Would be interesting if Matrix had Steam type player numbers to see if thats widespread. I suspect it is. I guess the metrics in game that go back to VR Designs would give an indication

(in reply to scottrossi)

Post #: 13

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/15/2020 7:12:22 PM

Lord Karg

Posts: 20
Joined: 7/31/2002
Status: offline

I am really enjoying the game and find it challenging (which I want). The logistics aspect is much appreciated as it's a very realistic element usually skipped. Vic this is a masterpiece!

(in reply to GalianGadris)

Post #: 14

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/19/2020 2:27:54 AM

HansLemurson

Posts: 134
Joined: 7/28/2020
Status: offline

The problem isn't with the AI not following the rules, but rather that it needs to be better at "faking it".

As I believe one famous game developer said: "Never let the player see you cheat."

(in reply to Lord Karg)

Post #: 15

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/19/2020 9:48:01 PM

ThunderLizard11

Posts: 573
Joined: 2/28/2018
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansLemurson

The problem isn't with the AI not following the rules, but rather that it needs to be better at "faking it".

As I believe one famous game developer said: "Never let the player see you cheat."

Maybe Sid Meier? Have played a fair bit and enjoying the game. Haven't played enough to see where AI cheats or how it's deficient. I will say that compared to games like HOI4 and Stellaris the AI is fantasic so I suppose it depends on your measuring stick.

(in reply to HansLemurson)

Post #: 16

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/20/2020 4:59:09 AM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

Well everybody knows I'm biased, but I get a hell of a lot of games to review and play and none of them have grabbed me like Shadow Empire has. I don't actually have much time for gaming right now but this is my favourite game to play when I've got the time: it's always fun, always challenging and it stimulates my imagination like few other games of it's type do. The game design could be seen as being somewhat loose when compared to certain other titles (but I think calling it bad is just not true) but consider the scope of Shadow Empire. What other game do you know with this size and scope that is as well designed and implemented as this? Name me just one. Nothing comes close, and so whilst it's absolutely fair to critique the game on what I see as a certain opacity of mechanics, it doesn't actually detract from the gameplay experience once you've learned the ropes.

I expect part of the reason the forum is quieter now is that the initial release buzz has died down, people know the game and are getting on with playing it. Once the Steam version there may be some resurgence here.

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 10/20/2020 5:05:45 AM >

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(in reply to ThunderLizard11)

Post #: 17

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/20/2020 5:02:14 AM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GalianGadris

I completely agree with some others above, esp since AI War is one of my fav games. The unending drive and need for most players to have an AI opponent that plays by the exact same rules is in some ways understandable (a fair game) but its a fallacy that will never happen. Even when it does, it results in horrible weak AI that never works well without bonuses. I love the idea of the AI playing by different rules to make it more effective and more of a challenging opponent, as long as those rules are fair. For the vast majority of people, what they can't see (the AI rules) doesn't bother them or even something they are aware of as long as the end result (a good challenging game) is good.

Especially given the development time needed to make an AI play by the same rules in a game this deep and widespread (systems wise), for a single dev, is just realistically unachievable surely, without a massive investment of time that most players wouldn't appreciate since to the average person how the AI plays and its rules are not really a problem as long as its functional and fun. Its a much better use of time in my opinion for a single dev to work on QoL, bugs, features etc.

Well said. Game AI is extremely difficult to get right, and for a game of this complexity it's a wonder Vic has it as good as it is. Asking for an AI that plays by the same rules just demonstrates a lack of understanding about how game AI works and honestly, I'd challenge anybody to show me a game that uses an AI that plays by the same rules as the player with even a quarter of the complexity of Shadow Empire. None of them do.

Bitching about the AI not being "fair" in Shadow Empire, when the AI is as good as it is, is complete insanity to me.

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 10/20/2020 5:04:44 AM >

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to GalianGadris)

Post #: 18

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/20/2020 5:03:38 AM

KingHalford

Posts: 488
Joined: 8/18/2016
Status: offline

Soren Johnson, developer of the excellent Civilization 4 (the best Civ game in my opinion, and certainly with the best AI of any Civ game), did a great presentation on game AI, and balancing "fairness and fun". It's on youtube if you search for it.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 19

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/20/2020 5:21:44 PM

ricanuck

Posts: 162
Joined: 5/24/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc

The weak AI started to push me away from this game; the more I learned how to play the more I saw what the AI can't do. (In my view the AI of any game should, at minimum, make an effort to play the game's core mechanics. I won't go on as it's all been talked about already but suffice to sat that the AI is weak even in simple wargaming terms. Can't help but feel that the game obfuscates an awful lot of its flaws behind complex player-only mechanisms.)

Then CK3 came out and that was that!

While you are at it, try Civ 6. I hear that one has a truly advanced, unbeatable AI...

(in reply to stryc)

Post #: 20

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/20/2020 9:30:40 PM

nukkxx5058

Posts: 2932
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: France
Status: offline

I have the game since release but for some strange reasons I hadn't really played it so far. So I finally decided to give it a real go and guess what, I certainly won't regret ! This game is simply the best 4X-like I've seen in years! And not a deja-vu clone of anything else (AFAIK).

Just a totally new concept. And deliciously complex.

Just hope this game will have the future it deserves with plenty of DLCs, plenty of mods, and a great community for epic PBEM games.

OK, need to go, have a planet to manage !

(in reply to ricanuck)

Post #: 21

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/21/2020 8:26:49 PM

SCSNV

Posts: 10
Joined: 7/11/2020
Status: offline

I think it's partly that it's been (largely) comms silent from Vic since the logistics update, combined with the handful of grievances that people have with certain aspects of the game.

Personally, I agree fully that the disparity of rules between the AI and the player (or even the appearance of disparity) is a detriment to the game. Coupled with the fate card system, it just feels like a very arbitrary system to a degree (oh, I have to wait for a card to perform a basic diplomatic function? Oh, my soldiers don't understand the concept of ambushing unless I get a government profile to a certain level? Shucks). Among many other problems.

I still play it here and there, and it's certainly a strong title, but it's not without its faults or peculiarities.

(in reply to nukkxx5058)

Post #: 22

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/23/2020 3:23:02 AM

Skinner

Posts: 5
Joined: 7/14/2020
Status: offline

I just came back to see if the logistics system had changed. I haven't played in the months. Doesn't look I'll be playing anytime soon.

(in reply to SCSNV)

Post #: 23

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/23/2020 8:21:20 AM

Dampfnudel

Posts: 126
Joined: 2/27/2019
Status: offline

I stopped playing my last run because of 3 things mostly:

Performance. Calculating turns toke too long.
Gameplay/map generation: All majors are neighboring each other. The rest of the map is empty. AI can not colonize. Colonizing is not fun.
Economy: The entire private economy part is disappointing underdeveloped. The entire balance is about having many small cities taxed to the max. So you found a city every 5th tile and put basic things in it.

(in reply to Skinner)

Post #: 24

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/26/2020 10:05:00 AM

VoodooDog

Posts: 75
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

luv the game very much.
the reason iam not playing it and iam not active in the forums is that i mostly have no time and still waiting for the mp part of this game.

basically the only time i play is when i play multiplayer games with friends.

(in reply to Dampfnudel)

Post #: 25

RE: Game forum very silent - and I guess I know why - 10/27/2020 9:09:28 PM

FlashXAron_slith

Posts: 139
Joined: 5/14/2012
Status: offline

SMALL FEEDBACK
So my brother and I quit, because
(we didn't want a battlegame only, there are already enough on the gamemarket and we see 4x games different, so shadow empire is a battlegame for us)...

1.) AI not using same rules, at normal settings ONE setting without cheating and same rules is needed

2.) No useable MP , we hate that PBEM .. all should be at the same time, we don't have fun to wait and wait and wait ...

3.) No Terraforming Techs, so that you could "play with yourself" and rebuild the planet. Needs a lot more none war techs

4.) Nothing much to do APART WAGING WAR !
______________________________________________________
That is why we don't play anymore
We hope now for Distant Worlds II :-)

(in reply to VoodooDog)

Post #: 26