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RE: This is How I install WITP-AE

 
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RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/15/2021 3:24:48 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vege1

Okay! I can elaborate that main goal was to get the game to run on multiple cores, which is why I suggested using cpu7, as I have 6 cores. If I understood correctly, cpu3 was suggested when you have a dual core processor (the rule was number of cpu cores + 1).

In my case, using cpu3 would run the game on a single core (right?), which is something that I wanted to avoid (my impression has been that modern processors are not that good in running programs on single cores and can have overheating issues if you do not spread the load to multiple cores).


The "War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition" root directory has a file named "WhatsNew.pdf". In that, the devs provide a lot of information on how the game interacts with multi-core systems (to include what the different switch settings will do), and that should provide the answers you need.

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Post #: 31
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/15/2021 4:50:14 PM   
vege1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: vege1

Okay! I can elaborate that main goal was to get the game to run on multiple cores, which is why I suggested using cpu7, as I have 6 cores. If I understood correctly, cpu3 was suggested when you have a dual core processor (the rule was number of cpu cores + 1).

In my case, using cpu3 would run the game on a single core (right?), which is something that I wanted to avoid (my impression has been that modern processors are not that good in running programs on single cores and can have overheating issues if you do not spread the load to multiple cores).


The "War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition" root directory has a file named "WhatsNew.pdf". In that, the devs provide a lot of information on how the game interacts with multi-core systems (to include what the different switch settings will do), and that should provide the answers you need.


Yes, I am aware of the document. I quoted it in my initial post. However, it is still unclear to me what should I do in case of 6 cores. I guess, I just need to test it out, as there is no direct answer in the documentation. My interpretation is that using cpu3 is only running the game in multiple cores only if you have a dual core processor. In my case, I would not expect cpu3 to work, as I want to.

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Post #: 32
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/15/2021 5:47:24 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
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From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vege1

Yes, I am aware of the document. I quoted it in my initial post. However, it is still unclear to me what should I do in case of 6 cores. I guess, I just need to test it out, as there is no direct answer in the documentation. My interpretation is that using cpu3 is only running the game in multiple cores only if you have a dual core processor. In my case, I would not expect cpu3 to work, as I want to.


The key statement in that doc is this:

"If a -cpu# switch and one of these -Single switches are used, the turns will always be processed in multi-processor mode."

Accordingly I suspect you'll get the best results from using either of the -single switches and then CPU 3 or 4. I'd be cautious about using any number higher than cpu4 since that is the highest number listed in the document and the code may not recognize something like "cpu7". And when I say "not recognize", it might ignore the command altogether leaving you in permanent single cpu mode.

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Post #: 33
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/17/2021 4:40:24 PM   
vege1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: vege1

Yes, I am aware of the document. I quoted it in my initial post. However, it is still unclear to me what should I do in case of 6 cores. I guess, I just need to test it out, as there is no direct answer in the documentation. My interpretation is that using cpu3 is only running the game in multiple cores only if you have a dual core processor. In my case, I would not expect cpu3 to work, as I want to.


The key statement in that doc is this:

"If a -cpu# switch and one of these -Single switches are used, the turns will always be processed in multi-processor mode."

Accordingly I suspect you'll get the best results from using either of the -single switches and then CPU 3 or 4. I'd be cautious about using any number higher than cpu4 since that is the highest number listed in the document and the code may not recognize something like "cpu7". And when I say "not recognize", it might ignore the command altogether leaving you in permanent single cpu mode.


Thank you! So, in order to get it to run with multiple cores I should write: -SingleCpuStart or -SingleCpuOrders and -cpu3.

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Post #: 34
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/17/2021 5:12:57 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		To answer some of this, this is my command line

"D:\War in the Pacfic Admirals Edition\PBEM xargun scen 2 with 100 points\War in the Pacific Admiral Edition.exe" -w -px2550 -py1535 -skipVideo -archive -dd_sw -altFont

Here is a picture of my processor clocks while WitP:AE if starting up, note that all of the clocks have shifted to 4700 MHz showing that they are all in use

When I load a turn they all go to 4700 MHz while loading, when the turn is loaded and I am doing nothing they ranged from 800 to 4700 MHz and fluctuate. When I input commands they mostly all go to 4700 again.

Now the funny thing is that when I add -cpu4 to my command line the core speeds behavior is the same but the game load time is much less.

Now adding -SingleCpuOrders did NOT change the behavior at all.

To be though I did two more tests, I took out the -cpu4 switch and tried the 2 single cpu switches. Both times all cpu cores were in use. I did notice that using any one of the three switches seemed to reduce the game load time for some reason.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Nomad -- 12/17/2021 5:47:24 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/17/2021 7:22:02 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

To answer some of this, this is my command line <snip>


Nomad - Thanks for running these tests, very interesting!

It's interesting that your system will use all the cores, even without ANY of the switches that are supposedly required in order to get the game to operate in multi-core mode. Makes me wonder if modern hardware (or possibly the O/S) are able to do this even without being specifically told to do so. After all, the code does allow it.

Going back through the "WhatsNew" document, I noticed that the description of the two SingleCPU switches includes this comment:

"We’ve found this to be useful on some multi-core systems, especially AMD processors."

I didn't pick up on that qualification earlier, but the two switches are NOT universally beneficial for multi-core systems (they assist only "some"), and even then it's largely (or entirely) helpful for AMD processers. In fact, a few paragraphs down are some "examples" and the Intel switches don't include either of the "SingleCPU" types.

The final comment from the Devs notes that "we have yet to find a system that didn’t benefit at all from at least one of these switches performance-wise", and that would agree with your findings.

One additional setting you might choose to test: Try using the "-cpu5" switch and see if that still provides the improved game load times. That would answer the question as to whether the code can "see" a switch other than cpu1-4 (the only ones specifically called out in the documentation)

< Message edited by Kull -- 12/17/2021 7:23:29 PM >

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Post #: 36
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/17/2021 7:30:38 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Actually, I might have been looking at the wrong thing. I went back and tried the -cpu4 switch and this time watched the cpu#3 ( this corresponds to -cpu4) utilization percentage. It was the only one that
went up towards 100 %, the others stayed at less than 10% while loading the game. Substituting in -cpu6 for -cpu4 showed the utilization of all cores fluctuating from just above 0% to about 70% and the
game load time was much longer. It would seem that cpu switches above 4 do not work.

I will retest the single switches later. And I do have an Intel I7-9700K processor overclocked to 4.7 GHz.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 12/17/2021 8:35:58 PM >

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Post #: 37
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/17/2021 7:40:40 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vege1

Okay! I can elaborate that main goal was to get the game to run on multiple cores, which is why I suggested using cpu7, as I have 6 cores. If I understood correctly, cpu3 was suggested when you have a dual core processor (the rule was number of cpu cores + 1).

In my case, using cpu3 would run the game on a single core (right?), which is something that I wanted to avoid (my impression has been that modern processors are not that good in running programs on single cores and can have overheating issues if you do not spread the load to multiple cores).

If you have a six core CPU, there is NO CPU 7! I don't know where the number of cores +1 came from. Years ago when MichaelM was still officially supporting the game, I think it was he who told us about Windows using Core 1 and other background programs using Core 2. Anything you have above that is good as there is unlikely to be competition for it from other programs.

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Post #: 38
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/17/2021 8:53:31 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Always take note that cpu1 equates to cpu#0 and so on.

These are all for loading the game program.
If you do not put in a -cpu switch then it uses all the cores and they all fluctuate between 0 and 70% or so. It appeared that cpu#1 was used the most.
Using -SingleCpuStart used cpu#0 to 100% the others mostly 0%
Using the -SingleCpuOrders switch used cpu#0 at about 100%

For giving orders
-cpu4 as expected used cpu#3 at 100%
-SingleCpuStart used cpu#0 at 100%
-SingleCpuOrders used cpu#0 at 100%

for running the combat replay
-cpu4 used cpu#3 at near 100%
-SingleCpuStart, -singleCpuOrders, and no switch used mostly cpu#1, but they also used some of the other cores to a lesser extent


< Message edited by Nomad -- 12/17/2021 8:54:14 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/17/2021 10:32:05 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		I found a 2009 post from Bill Dolson, which gives a lot more insight into what the CPU# and SingleCPU switches are intended for:

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The multi core problem is not just one thing, it's at least two distinct problems.  One has to do with some video drivers on some multi core machines and the other is an issue with the multi core processors themselves.  The latter problem only happens on Intel processors, the former problem can affect either Intel or AMD.

The -cpu# switches set the machine to run with only one processor all the time.  This is primarily helpful for the Intel problem.  The -single... switches help with some of the delay problems seen with some video cards.  -SingleCpuStart will switch the machine to single processor for loading the game, but will switch to using all processors after loading.  -SingleCpuOrders will keep the machine in single processor mode when loading the game and when you are entering orders, but will switch to use all processors for turn processing.


Honestly, I'm not quite sure what to make of that. I was beginning to suspect (based on the age of the code) that "multi-core processing" REALLY means, "uses multiple processors sequentially" rather than "uses multiple processors simultaneously". But that doesn't fit with at least some of your results, nor with Bill's last comment. It does seem odd that here we are, 12 years later, and the video card and processor technology haven't "improved" enough to make these switches obsolete.

< Message edited by Kull -- 12/17/2021 10:35:54 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/17/2021 11:02:04 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		I think one very important thing to keep in mind is the speed of modern CPUs, not to mention Video Cards.

The minimum specs for WitP:AE are for a 500 MHz processor and the recommended is for a 1 GHz processor. Most modern
CPUs are at least 2.8 GHz with many much faster.

Looking at the GPU, the minimum is 8MB video graphics card 16 bit color
and the recommended is the same. Again we are way past that even on integrated graphics that some are still
using.

So I would suggest that people use -cpu2 and that should run the game as fast as you can with good game load times.
I think that not using just 1 core on an Intel Processor runs into some of those delay problems in loading.
I upgraded my computer 2.5 years ago and my old ran the game just fine using a -cpu2 switch.

One thing I have found is that not using the -dd_sw switch causes long delays in night time operations,
coast watchers, bombardments, surface combat, etc. My system is plenty fast enough to do the direct draw in software with no problems.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 12/17/2021 11:04:05 PM >

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Post #: 41
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 12/18/2021 2:01:53 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		I'd agree with that. I ran a few "load game" tests with different switches, and it was maybe a 30 second time difference between none and several. In game, the effect wasn't even noticeable. You'll see far more impact from changing things like message delays or turning search arcs on/off.

So yes, whether the game runs on 6 cores or 1 isn't a big deal - modern systems will max out this old code either way. That said, running the game on something other than CPU1 is beneficial (and thus the player is advised to use the -cpu3 or -cpu4 switches, even -cpu2), but otherwise not worth worrying about. Thanks for digging into this!

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Post #: 42
RE: This is How I install WITP-AE - 2/18/2022 10:28:05 PM   
ETF


Posts: 1748
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		Works like a charm. Love the 'manual' option over Seebee :)

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