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Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement Features

 
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Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement Feat... - 12/10/2020 4:44:55 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		In preparation for the release of War in the East 2 in the Spring, Roger (loki100) and I are going to be making posts to showcase some of the game’s new features that improve on the mechanics of both the original War in the East and War in the West. Feel free to ask questions as we go. As Roger has also written the Manual he has a lot of detailed background knowledge and he’ll also be posting an AAR, starting in January, so you can see the features in play there too.

In this first post we are going to look at some of the more subtle changes that we have made to ground combat and movement. On their own they don’t seem to be big changes but collectively they have quite a significant impact on how the turns play out. There is now a complex interplay of administrative movement, command preparation points , Assault HQs and combat delay.

Roads & Movement

One of the first things you may have noticed with the new map is that each hex now has a road value. Including roads has allowed two changes to be made in the rules. The first is more obvious. Moving through hexes that have poor terrain (like heavy woods and swamps) or weather (mud and snow) but do have a road is cheaper than those that have no roads at all. The second change is a little more complex. It is called rear area administrative movement – any unit that moves along roads in hexes that were friendly at the start of the turn and have no interdiction will pay a reduced movement cost. This will save from 1MP per hex if the road is poor up to 3MP per hex if the road is good. This represents movement in a convoy rather than in a tactical formation. In essence moving a turn later means that units can move further. In reality the impact of adding roads is somewhat counter intuitive as it focuses movement into manoeuvre corridors as this screenshot shows. The soviet player is choosing not to defend in the bottom right corner as the terrain is so unsuitable. Showing roads as a more visible dark red can be toggled on/off.



Command Preparation Points

We all know that before major offensives or when preparing a deliberate defensive operation the more time that you have to prepare pays dividends. This preparation time is now factored into the game and we call it Command Preparation Points (CPPs). CPPs are gained by units that have remaining strategic movement points at the end of the turn. However those units in a friendly hex that haven’t moved or fought at all will gain the biggest improvement. The more CPPs you have the better the effects. CPPs increase attacking CV, reduce fatigue due to movement and in defence improve the chances of calling in artillery support. However as units move and fight they lose the CPPs they have gained. Going hell for leather is no longer necessarily the best policy. A more considered advance, with units moving in echelon and taking advantage of the administrative movement rules, may be a more sustainable approach; even before logistics are factored in. CPPs are such a game changer in successful operations that we thought an extract from the manual would be of benefit to prove the point:



Assault HQs

Another new feature replicates the focus of the Staff on the operations of specific Armies and Fronts. Players can now designate a number of the high-level HQs as Assault HQs. This increases the command point capacity of the HQ so more units can be attached with no penalties. Subordinate HQs and Units also gain a number of bonuses from Assault HQ status: these include gaining Combat Preparation Points faster, an increased chance to pass support checks and extra artillery ammunition for soviet artillery before 1944. There is however a catch. Units under an Assault HQ can only build to level 1 fortifications.

Combat Delay

Combat Delay was first introduced in WitW. It represents the time consumed in a turn by combat within a hex and which doesn’t immediately impact on those units who did not take place in the attack itself, and therefore saved MPs. Depending on the amount of combat in a hex an extra charge of up to 9 MPs can be charged on a unit that is leaving the hex. This prevents the tactic of using infantry units to clear a hole in the line and then charging through with motorized units who have a full allocation of MPs. The screenshot shows not only the black star that indicates a combat delay but also the new symbols that remind players that movement is generating fatigue (teardrop) and losing CPPs (crossed swords)



Together these four new elements pose the player with a whole new range of challenges, options and trade-offs. How you focus your staff effort and push your units will impact their ability to fight.

In our next post we are going to have a look at the new realistic weather system and the variation that it offers.


< Message edited by RedLancer -- 12/10/2020 4:50:58 PM >

_____________________________

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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev
Post #: 1
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/10/2020 5:57:10 PM   
brdxman

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 12/4/2004
Status: offline 		Excellent post! Looking great. I like the idea of combat delay and assault headquarters and preparation points, they all sound great for eastern front warfare and the massive offenses that were used. Roads will be a great add on for the simulation as we all know the muddy roads stopped offensives cold.

< Message edited by brdxman -- 12/10/2020 5:59:40 PM >

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 2
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/10/2020 8:11:02 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedLancer


In our next post we are going to have a look at the new realistic weather system and the variation that it offers.



Your just teasing me now with hints of wet dirt roads and dry dirt roads having different effects....


_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 3
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 12:16:03 AM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		Love the new concepts and I'm already thinking of questions!

Will unused CPP's accumulate to the next turn?
Will the Axis start the campaign with maximum CPP's? This seems realistic considering their careful planning.

Can't wait to see how the positive CPP effects balance out against the negative Combat Delay effects. Everyone will be wondering if the first turn Lvov and Extended Lvov pockets are still possible. I for one hope the effects are variable enough so these openings aren't such a sure thing for the Axis. They are so common and standard now that they make the game too predictable and less suspenseful.

< Message edited by Shupov -- 12/11/2020 12:17:15 AM >

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RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 1:12:19 AM   
joelmar


Posts: 1023
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov

Love the new concepts and I'm already thinking of questions!

Will unused CPP's accumulate to the next turn?
Will the Axis start the campaign with maximum CPP's? This seems realistic considering their careful planning.

Can't wait to see how the positive CPP effects balance out against the negative Combat Delay effects. Everyone will be wondering if the first turn Lvov and Extended Lvov pockets are still possible. I for one hope the effects are variable enough so these openings aren't such a sure thing for the Axis. They are so common and standard now that they make the game too predictable and less suspenseful.


I am a beta tester and will answer as I can.

Answers: yes and yes.

I will leave open the bigger question for you to decide when you experience it.

But I can say that IMO even if most of WitE 1 basic principles still hold and the transition is not that hard, WitE 2 is a very different beast and a whole new challenge at many levels. This includes a lot more possibilities for good or bad decisions on both sides. So what you know from WitE 1 or WitW, even if relevant, may be somewhat misleading :-)


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(in reply to Shupov)
Post #: 5
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 4:16:32 AM   
GloriousRuse

 

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline 		Regarding CPP, one of the parts I find interesting (and admittedly this might be esoteric) is how while they fundamentally work the same mechanically for both sides (X SMP remaining in Y circumstance always equals Z CPP gain), they actually reflect a lot of the historical operational doctrines and dilemmas.

For the Germans, if you’ve ever read about how their blitzes started off with resounding success, but were creaking along on their last legs six weeks later - well you’ll feel that here. When you start a properly prepared offense, you can go fangs out hair on fire and it seems like nothing can stop you as the panzers flow like lightning. But all too soon your beautiful mobile divisions that just a few weeks ago were invincible and terrifyingly fast are now vulnerable to counterattack, unable to shift well prepared positions, and moving altogether slower. So you start to arrive at the historical German answer/dilemma of whether or not to take a pause to launch a well planned offensive and enjoy those few weeks of glory, knowing that the Russians will use the pause to solidify and prepare, or do you keep pushing on even as your divisions are falling below what you used to think of as a regiment of real combat power...reaching for objectives, or just trying to keep the Russians off balance.

In contrast, the Russians need a certain amount of CPP just to remain viable agains the generally better German divisions, and don’t have the sheer mobility. But their deep battle doctrine really comes in to play. Assuming they can survive the initial shock and ever regain their feet, they can assemble multiple echelons - initial tactical penetrations might be difficult and the first echelons might not make it far, but the second echelon can crack open the battered and retreating Germans and maybe even buy space for the operational maneuver groups to turn a tactical success into a real crisis for the Germans...you really start to grok the how and why this worked.

(in reply to joelmar)
Post #: 6
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 12:42:12 PM   
robinsa


Posts: 183
Joined: 7/24/2013
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Looks great ! Really looking forward to trying this game !

(in reply to GloriousRuse)
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RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 1:29:01 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedLancer


In our next post we are going to have a look at the new realistic weather system and the variation that it offers.



Your just teasing me now with hints of wet dirt roads and dry dirt roads having different effects....



its no accident that a lot of the testers have the road mode on all the time, but especially in the poor weather turns

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RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 3:10:09 PM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		Just curious why a "mode" is needed for roads. Are they not effective all the time? I do understand why a "mode" needed for railroads. Units are traveling by rail or they are not.

Also, is there a consideration for roads becoming congested? It seems like poor quality roads could become overloaded.

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RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 3:40:34 PM   
DrewBlack


Posts: 828
Joined: 7/3/2004
From: North Wales, UK
Status: offline 		Hi

Good to see we are now able to speak about this excellent project that's its been a pleasure and and honour to be part of.

"No questions a stupid question" so they say.

We will try to assist were we can.

Drew

_____________________________

WitE2 - Alpha Tester/Beta Tester
Wite: 1.10 Beta Tester
Wite: Lost Battles Beta Tester
WitW - Beta Tester

(in reply to Shupov)
Post #: 10
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 3:49:30 PM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		We owe a debt of gratitude to the unheralded developers, product managers and testers who made this project happen.

Thank you!!

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The real RED soda!

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Post #: 11
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 3:52:01 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov

Just curious why a "mode" is needed for roads. Are they not effective all the time? I do understand why a "mode" needed for railroads. Units are traveling by rail or they are not.

Also, is there a consideration for roads becoming congested? It seems like poor quality roads could become overloaded.


Just a guess, but it may be taking advantage of how the map is now structured. So roads are a fixed asset in the hex, lets say 3 grades of good/average/poor quality, but it may be using dirt tracks or all weather roads etc, so a city has all weather roads and they extend a short way out of the city before possible turning into a dirt road leading to a small pop center.

But the weather in the hex changes, and in so doing makes the same road asset perform differently, so you get more granulation ( larger matrix of cost per hex depending in weather and terrain and road infrastructure) in movement costs, this would then give you the effects of congestion on the road net as the cost of supply delivery changes due to weather over the same fixed road asset. So rain on a city with all weather roads has x effect, while rain on a dirt road, has y effect.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 12/11/2020 3:57:11 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 12
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 4:05:18 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov

Just curious why a "mode" is needed for roads. Are they not effective all the time? I do understand why a "mode" needed for railroads. Units are traveling by rail or they are not.

Also, is there a consideration for roads becoming congested? It seems like poor quality roads could become overloaded.


its a map mode,so you can view it as in the screen shot above (where the roads are clear to see) or turn that map mode off and they fade into the background (you can still see them but the map art is much more subdued).

If you are focussed on the northern half the map (ie where most of the poor terrain is) then they become very important to your planning, esp in poor weather. In the Ukraine in summer, their relative value is minimal. Move into Germany and good roads are common.

So its like a lot of the map views, you get your own routine of when you use it and when its not that important (or clutters stuff that you would rather have clear).

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RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 4:14:35 PM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		While fighting deep in Soviet union, roads are important and sparse and ability to easy spot them is huge benefit. In Germany basically every hex have good or at least average roads and is not that important to see them but on the other hand the huge road network may act disruptive. Basically map should show what is important, therefore is good you can turn roads on/off.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 14
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 4:19:21 PM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline 		It seems the new combat delay will make swarm tactics a very good option (by swarm I mean scattering units all over the place to make the german pay extra MPs for every hex), especially during the first turns, when there is really nothing you can do to stop the germans

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 15
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 4:21:46 PM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		Thanks, I get it now! Road movement is not a "mode" in the same sense as railroads, but their visibility on the map is controlled by a switch.

Speaking of visibility, I'm hopeful the blizzard and mud overlays are less intrusive. I honestly can't see the terrain during blizzard weather in WitE1. The recently posted WitE2 screenshots appear to take care of that issue.

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STALINADE

The real RED soda!

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Post #: 16
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 4:25:42 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov
Speaking of visibility, I'm hopeful the blizzard and mud overlays are less intrusive. I honestly can't see the terrain during blizzard weather in WitE1. The recently posted WitE2 screenshots appear to take care of that issue.


I promise we'll post more screenshots in the next release when we focus on weather (as Roger and I are both from the UK we have an in built weather fixation).

_____________________________

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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 17
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 4:35:54 PM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline 		By the way, havent you made a face washing to the counters? Old ones are ok, but some mods have made them prettier. I think the new, better looking map, calls for new, better looking counters.

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 18
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 6:08:08 PM   
governato

 

Posts: 1079
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		One of the things I loved (and well hated a bit :)) of WITE1 was the omniscient role of the player. We were 5 five stars generals given complete freedom of action from Uncles Joseph and Adolf and we also knew everything about our side down to the last bayonet assigned to the most remote battalion...at the same time when we would make decisions at the small unit level we'd also know everything about the situation on the whole front. This is FUN but also a bit unrealistic. As an example STAVKA did not not know the position of entire ARMIES in July 1941, forget about giving orders to individual divisions or knowing the exact number and morale of their sapper squads...

To my question: are there any changes to the Fog of War and the way the Chain of Command is handled in WITE2 vs WITE to make it more representative of real situations?

< Message edited by governato -- 12/11/2020 9:36:25 PM >

(in reply to No idea)
Post #: 19
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 6:21:41 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea

By the way, haven't you made a face washing to the counters? Old ones are ok, but some mods have made them prettier. I think the new, better looking map, calls for new, better looking counters.


I've always thought that counters are like chess pieces - everyone has a favourite set (and between you and I, sometimes I play with my own special set I've created).

Unfortunately WitE and WitW mods won't immediately work with WitE2 as we have added some extra pieces like City Forts. What do you imagine a new, better looking counter set would look like? Of all the art to be modded the counters are one of the easiest. In general WitE2 is the by far the most modable of the series as so much less is hard coded and even the GUI background colour can be adjusted if you choose.

_____________________________

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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to No idea)
Post #: 20
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 9:25:11 PM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline 		I have been playing with the same modded counters for so long that I have fogotten who made them or which was the mod, but they are not so “pointy” on their corners and the colours are not so “plain” but pastel shade (I hope I have explained myself)

I guess there isnt a single way of making the counters look pretty, but the present ones seem outdated if you compare them with the map. They seem a bit out of place, like a modern looking, crystal made chessboard that has wood chess pieces. It is not that wood pieces are wrong, it is just that they dont match



< Message edited by No idea -- 12/11/2020 9:26:29 PM >

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 21
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 9:27:37 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: governato

One of the things I loved (and well hated a bit :) of WITE1 was the omniscient role of the player. We were 5 five stars generals with complete freedom of action from Uncles Joseph and Adolf and we also knew everything about our side down to the last bayonet assigned to the most remote battalion...at the same time when we would made decisions at the small unit level knowing everything about the situation on the whole front. This is FUN but also a bit unrealistic. As an example STAVKA did not not know the position of entire ARMIES in July 1941, forget about giving orders or knowing the exact number and morale of their sapper squads...

To my question: are there any changes to the Fog of War and the way the Chain of Command is handled in WITE2 vs WITE to make it more representative of real situations?


we'll come back to this in a later post and the AAR but you might like the compromise that is in WiTE2 in this respect

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RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 10:09:43 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		How does the game model use of Russian RRs in the first 3 weeks of the campaign, when the destruction of RRs was minimal? The first Russian train got through to Minsk on 7/3/1941 (see e.g., https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2018/3/9/the-influence-of-railways-on-military-operations-in-the-russo-german-war-19411945 ) and Riga was comparable.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 23
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/11/2020 10:35:35 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		On the subject of unit counters:
You still have both fort indicators and soft factors in the upper left corner. I would like to suggest that fort markers be moved to the lower left. That way: 1) they will not cover up the soft factors and 2) I will be able to clearly distinguish between brigades and divisions without having to turn off the fort markers.

(in reply to wpurdom)
Post #: 24
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/12/2020 3:57:43 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wpurdom

How does the game model use of Russian RRs in the first 3 weeks of the campaign, when the destruction of RRs was minimal? The first Russian train got through to Minsk on 7/3/1941 (see e.g., https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2018/3/9/the-influence-of-railways-on-military-operations-in-the-russo-german-war-19411945 ) and Riga was comparable.



Pre war planning ( wargames) gave how many Divs they needed to create.https://history.army.mil/html/books/104 ... 104-21.pdf

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a279709.pdf
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-6.html
https://shron1.chtyvo.org.ua/David_Stahel/Kiev_1941_Hitlers_battle_for_supremacy_in_the_East__en.pdf


Pre war logistical planning showed that after 20 days logistical effort, to support an operational bound of 300 miles in which Russian forced were to be destroyed and the war won) supplies would drop to 10-20% of requirments and an operational pause would result, so as to build up supplies for any further offensives.

Maths shows an average of 70 tons per day per formation was all that could be delivered.
If priority was given to the Panzer forces, then 33 formations daily requirements could be meet, leaving nothing for any other formations.

To go beyond the 300 operational bound ment resupply from the RR, first bound ended at Smolensk, RR conversion to German gauge took till August to convert, so 30 days after getting there, the logistical ability to go on from there became present.

The logistics branch of the OKH was blunt in its prediction for another advance from Smolensk to Moscow: ( supply branch of the OKH warned Brauchitsch, Halder and Bock) 'if the intensity of fighting and the operational rythm was to be similar to that of the summer campaign, the supply system would be able to cover a bit over 50% of AGC's needs for a space of time of two weeks. More than that, and the system would collapse and the it would be able to deliver just between 10-20% of the total load of supplies needed'.


The 1941 munition supplies reaching the front by month.Source:Germany and WWII Tome
June :23077 tons
July :101594
August:118855
September: 107870
October:90563
November:68035

Which yields per Div per day.
June 5
July 22
Aug 26
Sept 23
Oct 20
Nov 15

German Munitions production by year.
1940 865000
1941 540000
1942 1270000
1943 2258000


German ammunition expenditure on the Eastern Front in 1941 (22.06-31.12) from KTB OKW Vol.I
37-mm AT gun - 2778000*1.5=4167000
50-mm AT gun - 303000*4.5=1363500
50-mm mortar - 2977000*2.2=6549400
81-mm mortar - 3119000*7.7=24016300
75-mm light infantry gun - 2673000*12=32076000
150-mm heavy infantry guns - 457000*84=38388000
75-mm mountain gun 36 - 83000*6=498000
105-mm light field howitzer - 8297000*33=273801000
150-mm heavy field howitzer - 2441000*96=234336000
105-mm gun - 684000*33=22572000
150-mm gun - 55000*96=5280000
210-mm Morser (heavy howitzer) - 137000*250=34250000

Yes there is a range of AP HE shell weight, but we dont have that data.
Total weight 677297200 lbs, is 338648 tons.
Time frame 192 days, 1763.8 tons a day expended.

Number of Div 146. 12 tons per day per Div.

https://archive.org/stream/HalderWarJournal/Halder%20War%20Journal_djvu.txt

From Halder diary we find the following:
Germany in the East required 32,000 tonnes a day, thats 24 train loads a day each AG.This represented only fuel, ammunition, and limited food/fodder, making no allowance for replacement men, horses, or equipment. POL to munition was a 2:1 ratio.

Halder diary, page 203 6th July AGC requires 21 trains a day. Page 242 Wagner gaurentes 14 @6300 tons. Page 246 what that translates into combat loads. "To meet all supply requirements we have available: As of 18 July, 14 trains; 22 trains are necessary to catch up with the three Armies into the areas newly occupied".

Ie between 6th and 18th July 14*12=168 promised, 146 deliverd.

So 6th AGC requires 21*12 days.
QM promises 14 a day, 14*12=168
QM delivers 146/12= 12 a day, =146.


32,000/24 =1333
AGC 21*12 =252*1333=335916 tons.
QM promises 168*1333=223944 tons
QM delivers=146*1333= 194618 tons.

AGC requires 335916
QM delivers 194618

58% of requirement met.

Pre war ,logistical planning and actual outcomes were pretty close.

_____________________________

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Post #: 25
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/12/2020 10:31:15 PM   
Simon Edmonds

 

Posts: 132
Joined: 5/10/2018
Status: offline 		Very informative post Hanny. Thanks for that.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 26
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/13/2020 8:51:06 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Simon Edmonds

Very informative post Hanny. Thanks for that.


Your welcome, here is some more for you that i hope you find of interest.

Ditto for SU

SU compared to German
50-mm mortars
82-mm mortars
107-mm mortars
120-mm mortars
45-mm anti-tank
57-mm AT
76-mm mountain
76-mm regimental guns
76-mm divisional guns
107-mm guns
122-mm howitzers
122-mm guns
152-mm howitzers
152-mm howitzers-guns
203-mm howitzers

Comes out to 177196.4 tons, and 922 a day.


1942

SU
31078000*.5=15539000 20 mm push. ShVAK
6140000*3.2=19648000 45-mm cannon
50000*13=650000 57 mm cannon
5063000*13=65819000 76 mm regimental
654000*13=8502000 76 mm mountain
10024000*13=130312000 76 mm divisional
599000*48=28752000 122 mm cannon
4306000*48=206688000 122 mm howitzer.
706000*96=67776000 152 mm howitz.
1508000*96=144768000 152 mm howit.-push.
107000*220=23540000 203 mm howit.
13144000*2=26288000 50 mm mines/Morters
15145000*7.7=116616500 82 mm mines
294000*28=8232000 107 mm mines
3008000*35=105280000 120 mm mines
Small arms all small arms weight is 100 per type.
22843700*5=114218500 7.62 mm screw chuck
168770000*2.5=421925000 62 mm Nagan
569322000*5= 28466100007.62 mm TT
11311000*5=56555000 12.7 mm DShK
9154000*6=54924000 14.5 mm PTR

Total weight in lbs 4462643000 in tons 2231321.
Time frame 365 days, 6113 tons a day.

Germany
3953000*1.5=5929500 3.7-cm Pak of all types
1915000*4.5=8617500 5-cm Pak of all types
415000*5=2075000 7.5-cm Pak of all types
6200000*12=74400000 7.5-cm leIG
1116000*93=103788000 15-cm sIG
662000*12=7944000 GebG36
17751000*33=585783000 10-cm leFH18
1210000*40=48400000 10-cm K18
4482000*96=430272000 15 cm sFH18
339000*250=84750000 21-cm Moerser
25000*38=950000 17-cm K in Mrs.Laf.
8647000*4.5=38911500 5-cm mortar Gr.W.36
9605000*7.7=73958500 8-cm mortar Gr.W.34
Small arms
28302750*6=169816500 carbines and machine guns
2164150*3=6492450 pistols and pistols guns

Total weight in lbs 2227870950 in tons 1113935.
Time frame 365 days, 3051 tons a day.


German
1941 1764
1942 3051
SU
1941 922
1942 6113



Some comparisons with basic combat loads.

German ID 1941 Firepower in weight of munitions.
6.2 tons
German Pzr Div 1941
7.4 tons.



SU 1941 ID 5/41 TOE
4.3 tons
SU 1941 ID 7/41 TOE
1.4 tons
SU 1941 ID 12/41 TOE
2.4 tons
SU 1941 ID 3/42 TOE
2.7 tons
SU 1941 ID 7/42 TOE
3 tons
SU 1941 ID 12/42 TOE
4 tons
SU 1941 ID Guards TOE
4.3
SU INF Brigade
1.8 Tons
SU Tnk Brigade
1.5 Tons
SU Mech Bigade
2.1
SU Tank Corps
9.3 ton
SU Mech Corps
12.2 tons
SU Cav Corps
9.7 tons

_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Simon Edmonds)
Post #: 27
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/14/2020 12:49:35 AM   
Simon Edmonds

 

Posts: 132
Joined: 5/10/2018
Status: offline 		Hanny. Quick question. In 1942 did the Axis Allies use Germany's rail assets to supply their armies or did they have to use their own.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 28
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/14/2020 11:16:28 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline 		Germans planned pre invasion a 3 year rail plan, to replace both Poland and Romanian etc rail infrastucture with Otto 1 and Otto 2 German system, to not only make invasion easier, and get Romnaian oil etc to Germany, but to exploit what was conquerd in the SU.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Munitionsverbrauch-operativen-Milit%C3%A4rgeschichte-Milit%C3%A4rwissenschaft-Konfliktforschung/dp/3764817909


"The ammunition supplies in the Heeres Munitionsanstalten travel by train or big truck colums to the Army group ammo dumps or direct by train to the Army ammo dumps. From the army ammo dumps it goes by medium or small truck columns first to the Divisionsumschlagsstelle and then by smalll truck columns to the Divionsausgabestelle or direct by medium or small truck column to the Divisionsausgabestelle. The ammunition can also be transported by train from the army ammo dumps to an offload railway station of the division and then by small transport column to the Divisionsausgabestelle. The troop fetches the ammunition from the Divisionsausgabestelle." ( Donat is usefull as he breaks down munitions ( sourced from allies and used by German for instance) into more detail than most authors)

So when Otto was running by 42 ( and the war not won and instead being fought not always where the pre invasion explotation of SU rail lines went to) , the infrastucutre was in place to get volume delivery to Armies, this decreases when the Armies were not close to those converted lines, and had to be unloaded and re loaded onto soviet rolling stock and used on unconverted lines. The greater the Div motorised transport, rather than horse drawn, the better its supply chain was from there.

Hans Potgiesser Die deutsche Reichsbahn im Ostfeldzug is a great resource if you can still find a copy.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Die-Deutsche-Reichsbahn-Ostfeldzug-1939-1944/dp/B0023S6K5Q

So all Axis forces had to rely to a certain extent on captured SU engines and rail, this was a major bottleneck in the supply chain.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 12/14/2020 11:26:32 AM >

_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Simon Edmonds)
Post #: 29
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement ... - 12/22/2020 12:06:05 AM   
meyer2_slith

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/13/2016
Status: offline 		All these elements sound great.
I'm especially pleased to see the Combat Delay feature. It was my biggest turn-off from the first game seeing a lack of time and space considerations when it came to combat. I couldn't understand how in such a fine and otherwise realistic game, how an infantry unit, for example, could march up from many hexes away, attack and clear an area, and then units next to the cleared area are free to move with full movement factors, when in reality they would have been waiting around expending time (MFs). Great to see the addition! Look forward to the game.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 30
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