Merging Units Exploit?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Merging Units Exploit?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Tech Support >> Merging Units Exploit?

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Merging Units Exploit? - 12/16/2020 11:53:01 PM

Shupov

Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline

Merging units is "free" after running out of AP's. This seems inconsistent and possibly should be labelled as an exploit. Latest manual Section 7.5.3.6 is ambiguous on this point - it says "It cost 3 APs to merge a Bde and 5 APs to merge a Div but in some circumstances nothing". The "some circumstances" appears to be when no AP's are available to spend.

This is a powerful technique but I don't want to use it unless it is legitimate. The question is whether merging should be allowed at all when the player has no AP's to spend. I would appreciate it if 2x3 would weigh in whether this is a bug and if so will it be fixed in WitE or WitE2?

_____________________________

STALINADE

The real RED soda!

Post #: 1

RE: Merging Units Exploit? - 12/17/2020 1:54:25 AM

eskuche

Posts: 1094
Joined: 3/27/2018
From: OH, USA
Status: offline

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that, although "no APs" does seem to be the major part of "in some circumstances." Merging a division destroys it rather than disbands it. Thus, the types of divisions (rifle, cavalry, tank) that have the opportunity to be reformed for free prior to a certain date, Nov 1941, do not incur the penalty cost, since having them surrendered or shattered would not have an AP cost anyway. I think there would thus be a large programming hurdle to overcome here. However, given the mechanics in WITE2 regarding brigade attachment and unit mergers, I'm not sure 2x3 would consider the current merging system such a big problem. It requires pretty finicky micromanagement of this to achieve outsized benefits, and the worst "offenders" I've seen are those using brigades and shells to top off elite units. In any case, I think the current mechanics circumvent some artificially contrived weaknesses, such as Soviet "unready" armor units with hundreds of tanks (when their TOE demands several hundred more) having halved CV. Plus, the stacking limits do not quite make a lot of sense when three brigades or three full corps are equally at the limit for a hex, and the merging mechanic lets the Soviet (or German ! sometimes) player perhaps historically accurately stuff more CV in.

Edit 2: Merging also allows pseudodestruction and reincarnation of pocketed combat units when the Axis player is letting units rot rather than clearing them up. Airlifting counters out also puts some sort of timer on the Axis. Irrespective of whether any of these techniques are gamey and should be allowed, these mechanics all represent a healthy push/pull and decision-making for both players.

< Message edited by eskuche -- 12/17/2020 2:03:14 AM >

(in reply to Shupov)

Post #: 2

RE: Merging Units Exploit? - 12/17/2020 6:51:13 AM

Chris21wen

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline

Merging as it sits with no APs left is an exlpoit as I see it and should not be done. There's another question that's rarely ask, 'Should you pay APs to merge anyway'?

(in reply to eskuche)

Post #: 3

RE: Merging Units Exploit? - 12/17/2020 5:49:42 PM

eskuche

Posts: 1094
Joined: 3/27/2018
From: OH, USA
Status: offline

I could fathom spending 1, MAYBE 2, AP to merge unready armor divisions. Anything more and it�s simply not worth it compared to disbanding and waiting a turn for replacements.

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 4

RE: Merging Units Exploit? - 12/17/2020 11:49:18 PM

Shupov

Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline

Thanks for the responses. After researching the old threads on this topic my takeaways are:

1) The AP cost for merging units can be avoided by using up all available AP's first.

2 Starting November 1941 the AP cost when destroyed units return is taken from accumulated points carried over from the prior turn unless there aren't any left over. So by using up all AP's each turn this cost also can be avoided.

I agree with Chris21wen that behavior 1) is easy to exploit and should be considered gamey. Don't merge units when you have no AP's to spend.

Behavior 2) is harder to work around. I don't think most players will want to save AP's each turn that will be taken away when destroyed units come back.

I also agree with eskuche that merging costs are too high. The Soviets have many infantry brigades that are mostly too weak to be useful. I like to merge excess brigades into low-TOE divisions during the 1941 blizzard, but the 3 AP cost is too expensive.

In any case both behaviors cause problems for ethical players as they reward gamey play.

< Message edited by Shupov -- 12/18/2020 2:25:19 PM >

_____________________________

STALINADE

The real RED soda!

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 5

RE: Merging Units Exploit? - 12/19/2020 9:31:13 AM

AtAtack

Posts: 111
Joined: 3/30/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline

It cost only APs for sowjets if you merge units at the FIRST time. Once a new merge unit but in to existence it is a established unit and u cab break it up as often u want. Nothing wron with this.

(in reply to Shupov)

Post #: 6

RE: Merging Units Exploit? - 12/20/2020 4:47:36 AM

Chris21wen

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AtAtack

It cost only APs for sowjets if you merge units at the FIRST time. Once a new merge unit but in to existence it is a established unit and u cab break it up as often u want. Nothing wron with this.

Not what we are talking about. You are talking about the Soviet buildup up and breakdown of units 7.5.3.1. We are talking about the Merging Units 7.5.3.6.

Both references from the unofficial Manual.

(in reply to AtAtack)

Post #: 7