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Oil loading - 12/26/2020 10:06:01 AM

soloje_ssl

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I'm trying to load Oil from San Francisco for several days, weeks, with no succes, Information Oil loading is displayed but nothing is loaded despite of Oil stock is huge.
I try to use Ao or TK , docked or not, but nothing change , impossible to load any oil. Could you help me?, is there any special special set to do?

Post #: 1

RE: Oil loading - 12/26/2020 10:47:29 AM

Sardaukar

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As Allies you should have no need to transfer oil, it's fuel you need for industry in places like Australia, India and NZ.

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Post #: 2

RE: Oil loading - 12/26/2020 12:17:22 PM

Alfred

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There is no spare oil in North America.

If Japan replicate the historical capture of the oilfields, the only surplus oil for the Allies is found in the off map base Abadan.

Alfred

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Post #: 3

RE: Oil loading - 12/26/2020 6:21:49 PM

soloje_ssl

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Thanks for answer . I asked the question because I was at 0 oil in australia , and rafinery can't produce. But oil stock seems to increase ramdomly sometimes ? As I have few oil production in australia

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Post #: 4

RE: Oil loading - 12/26/2020 7:14:26 PM

RangerJoe

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The refineries will only only when there is enough oil for the entire production, no partial production. So the oil builds up until there is enough for a production run. The same thing is for HI and LI if the necessary inputs are not there.

The DEI can produce excess oil.

There may be excess oil coming in at Abadan.

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Post #: 5

RE: Oil loading - 12/26/2020 7:36:32 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The refineries will only only when there is enough oil for the entire production, no partial production. So the oil builds up until there is enough for a production run. The same thing is for HI and LI if the necessary inputs are not there.

The DEI can produce excess oil.

There may be excess oil coming in at Abadan.

Abadan produces enough fuel that I use the longest range tankers to haul fuel to Oz rather than oil.
The only time I hauled oil to Oz was at the beginning of the game when I had ships in a DEI port with no fuel but some oil stocks I could load and take to thirsty Oz. Let the refinery workers be laid off so they can pick up a weapon and defend the country!

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Post #: 6

RE: Oil loading - 12/26/2020 8:05:12 PM

rustysi

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quote:

I'm trying to load Oil from San Francisco for several days, weeks, with no succes,

Note in the base screen there's a minimum demand listed for oil at that location. The base will not allow oil to be loaded that takes it below that limit.

If you really wish to load oil in SF, turn off the refineries first. Refineries take precedence and will use the oil first before it could be loaded aboard a ship.

There will be excess to load after that.

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Post #: 7

RE: Oil loading - 12/26/2020 8:14:07 PM

Ambassador

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Every Oil point you bring to Oz will need to be processed through the 55 Refineries (if I remember correctly the numbers in Scen 1). I think you also have 10 Oil centers, so only 45 Refineries will work on imported Oil (or 450 Oil points processed per day). If you bring more than that each turn (on average), it�s wasted - well, not really wasted but useless. And the daily process will give you 45 Supply and 405 Fuel, which may then be used to fuel 202.5 HI, ending up as 405 Supply. So, bringing Oil gives 450 Supply per day.
However, there�s around a 1000 HI (a bit over that, but not much), which requires over 2000 Fuel to work. So, you still have to bring four or five times as much Fuel as Oil.

End of day, if you bring enough Oil to make the Refineries work every day, you end up needing to bring an additional 45 liquid cargo per day (over a requirement of a bit over 2000, that�s not much), while the benefit is 45 additional Supply (not much compared to the 2000 you get from HI). So, if you�re okay with an additional piece of paperwork, just to have the equivalent of a additional cargo ship full of Supply every four months...

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Post #: 8

RE: Oil loading - 12/26/2020 9:13:15 PM

rustysi

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quote:

So, if you�re okay with an additional piece of paperwork, just to have the equivalent of a additional cargo ship full of Supply every four months...

I get it, but many players here are so immersed in the minutia of this game they do whatever...

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Post #: 9

RE: Oil loading - 12/26/2020 9:32:34 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Every Oil point you bring to Oz will need to be processed through the 55 Refineries (if I remember correctly the numbers in Scen 1). I think you also have 10 Oil centers, so only 45 Refineries will work on imported Oil (or 450 Oil points processed per day). If you bring more than that each turn (on average), it�s wasted - well, not really wasted but useless. And the daily process will give you 45 Supply and 405 Fuel, which may then be used to fuel 202.5 HI, ending up as 405 Supply. So, bringing Oil gives 450 Supply per day.
However, there�s around a 1000 HI (a bit over that, but not much), which requires over 2000 Fuel to work. So, you still have to bring four or five times as much Fuel as Oil.

End of day, if you bring enough Oil to make the Refineries work every day, you end up needing to bring an additional 45 liquid cargo per day (over a requirement of a bit over 2000, that�s not much), while the benefit is 45 additional Supply (not much compared to the 2000 you get from HI). So, if you�re okay with an additional piece of paperwork, just to have the equivalent of a additional cargo ship full of Supply every four months...

And the calculations for benefit should also account for any fuel burned by the ships bringing in the oil/fuel if they refuel in Oz. Most of the tanker traffic coming from the US or Abadan must take on a small amount of fuel to get back to their home port. To obviate that, I set a refueling waypoint for the tanker to take on enough fuel to get to Oz and back to home base (set refueling amount to "minimum").

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Post #: 10

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 12:33:06 AM

Ambassador

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Every Oil point you bring to Oz will need to be processed through the 55 Refineries (if I remember correctly the numbers in Scen 1). I think you also have 10 Oil centers, so only 45 Refineries will work on imported Oil (or 450 Oil points processed per day). If you bring more than that each turn (on average), it�s wasted - well, not really wasted but useless. And the daily process will give you 45 Supply and 405 Fuel, which may then be used to fuel 202.5 HI, ending up as 405 Supply. So, bringing Oil gives 450 Supply per day.
However, there�s around a 1000 HI (a bit over that, but not much), which requires over 2000 Fuel to work. So, you still have to bring four or five times as much Fuel as Oil.

End of day, if you bring enough Oil to make the Refineries work every day, you end up needing to bring an additional 45 liquid cargo per day (over a requirement of a bit over 2000, that�s not much), while the benefit is 45 additional Supply (not much compared to the 2000 you get from HI). So, if you�re okay with an additional piece of paperwork, just to have the equivalent of a additional cargo ship full of Supply every four months...

And the calculations for benefit should also account for any fuel burned by the ships bringing in the oil/fuel if they refuel in Oz. Most of the tanker traffic coming from the US or Abadan must take on a small amount of fuel to get back to their home port. To obviate that, I set a refueling waypoint for the tanker to take on enough fuel to get to Oz and back to home base (set refueling amount to "minimum").

Indeed, but in the end it�s beneficial to bring Fuel with tankers (if you haven�t lost too many) rather than the same amount of Supply, if looking from a Fuel efficiency for the transport POV.

Running the numbers from memory, here, so details are a little bit different.

Round-trip from West Coast to Oz, by doing a small detour to keep south of the Penrhyn-Pago-Noumea line, is 360 hexes. A T2 Tanker can only do 315 hexes, so it needs to refuel partly somewhere. Setting a way-station around Pago Pago or Suva would allow the final leg to Sydney and return to the way-station without refueling in Australia.
A T2 needs around 1450 Fuel to get max endurance, so it would need around 1800 for the whole round-trip, and can ship 14000 Fuel, and so can give Oz�s HI the needed Fuel for a week. The round-trip takes two months, so you need 8 T2 to reach Sydney to have enough for the industry. As long as you include a ninth tanker which detachs and unloads in the gas station to replenish the used Fuel, while the rest of the convoy continues, you�re fine. More than fine, in fact, as the T2 refueling the gas station brings more Fuel than needed by the whole convoy (barring a very heavy escort) to safely return home with a tactical refueling.
9 T2 filled at Los Angeles with 14000 Fuel each : 126k Fuel, 112k of which is used by the industry to make as much Supply. Fuel usage for the whole convoy for the trip : 9*1800 = 16,200 Fuel (counting the Fuel used in WC to refill them).

With a Liberty cargo, you have a bigger Endurance, so you don�t need a refueling station, but you only carry 6250 Supply - so you need 18 ships to bring the same quantity of Supply. For the full Endurance, slightly over 400, you need 1800 Fuel, or approximately the same as a T2 - but you need twice as many ships. Given the slight reserve of Fuel the Liberty would have on the return trip (if it has refueled an escort, for example), you can easily consider a use of at least 1700 Fuel for the round trip. 1700*18 ships = 30,600 Fuel.

So, the net result of shipping Fuel with 9 big tankers will be the same, Supply-wise, than using twice as many Liberty ships, but for nearly half the usage of Fuel for the shipping.

That said, as soon as you can get your hands on DEI Fuel, it�s way better to ship it from there. And, from memory, the Cape-Perth round-trip is shorter I think, so if you have too much Fuel there, it�s better than shipping from California. Unless your opponent intercepts the convoys in the Indian Ocean.

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Post #: 11

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 1:28:42 AM

RangerJoe

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The Liberty ship also carries 500 fuel, at least in the scenario that I am playing.

You will probably need more fuel for your fuel stations anyway for other ships so use the shorter legged and smaller tankers for that. Also, a few tankers show up in Panama Land so haul fuel from the East Coast to load them up. Haul supplies there as well so your Cargo and AP ships that show up there can load supplies to somewhere, that is if you want them to do that and not have to waste time to go to the West Coast to load supplies. That is a good use for your APs and AKs to keep them safe until you need/want them for invasions.

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Post #: 12

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 1:59:49 AM

Ambassador

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Liberty ship also carries 500 fuel, at least in the scenario that I am playing.

You will probably need more fuel for your fuel stations anyway for other ships so use the shorter legged and smaller tankers for that. Also, a few tankers show up in Panama Land so haul fuel from the East Coast to load them up. Haul supplies there as well so your Cargo and AP ships that show up there can load supplies to somewhere, that is if you want them to do that and not have to waste time to go to the West Coast to load supplies. That is a good use for your APs and AKs to keep them safe until you need/want them for invasions.

Indeed, Liberties and Victories in stock carry a bit of Fuel too, but it�s not much (and represents a fire threat).
Yeah, I usually use the Panama bases to load ships supplying my SoPac way stations, at least during the first year. Once enough xAK have appeared, you can simply stop worrying about empty travels to the West Coast.
The maths I made above are not what I used to do in my PBEM - I was sending 3 TK at a time, every two weeks, and used two small AO�s to replenish them when passing close to Suva. The important thing is to know how many ships are available, and set up your schedules.

The security of my logistics highways was helped by the fact that I managed to hold the Solomons and the Gilberts, so I wouldn�t recommend using the AOs if the opponent is aggressive in the South Pacific.

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Post #: 13

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 2:21:42 AM

Ian R

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quote:

ORIGINAL: soloje_ssl

I'm trying to load Oil from San Francisco for several days, weeks, with no succes, Information Oil loading is displayed but nothing is loaded despite of Oil stock is huge.
I try to use Ao or TK , docked or not, but nothing change , impossible to load any oil. Could you help me?, is there any special special set to do?

The interesting discussion above gives you the cost/benefit analysis numbers (particularly Ambassador's posts). But rather than talking about why/why not, if you want to keep the on map industry running at full capacity (not including China)that means taking both oil (to feed the refineries) and fuel (to run HI) to Oz, with some fuel to NZ. India can be easily supplied from Abadan -> Karachi. You have three practical choices for developing an oil stockpile in Australia. The first two attach a dribble level supply to existing convoy routes, the third is a once (twelve tankers) or twice (six tankers) per year proposition.

1 - Turn off the refineries in LAX for a day. Do it from the industry screen, not the city screen, so you don't turn off the aircraft plants as well. You will get more than enough oil to send the 1 tanker load per month required to keep the Oz refineries running. Add the loaded tanker to a CS convoy to Sydney.

2. Load a tanker with oil at Abadan... and then send it (set to no-unload etc) to Capetown by making that its home base, giving it a destination hex on the African coast and telling it to rout coastal. It will slip across the corner of the map and eventually turn up in Capetown. Add it to a supply convoy going to Perth or Melbourne.

3. One tanker per month = twelve per year, (or six twice a year), so fill up 12 tankers at either LAX or Abadan with oil. Then assembly a convoy around them with an equal amount of 19400 or 19000 endurance xAKs carrying fuel, and suitable escorts, including CA level protection and an escort carrier if available. The Long Island with a VMSB on board and searching will scare away AMCs and cause subs to submerge. RN CVE's carrying Swordfish are even better, because they were built with a massive bunker capacity to refuel small escorts on the Atlantic routes. If you can afford it, add an AO carrying fuel to the TF. Then rout those from LAX to SYD, or ABD to PER, to deliver the oil. Even with the tanker endurance propped up by the xAKs and an AO you will probably need to give these convoys a pit stop to refuel. In the Pacific, I tend to develop Christmas Island as a refueling stop, with nav support and a couple of slow AOs to assist operations. In the India Ocean I use Diego Garcia.

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Post #: 14

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 5:49:43 AM

Alfred

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What is the logic of stopping refineries in the USA just to send that oil elsewhere. One is merely transferring production of fuel from the USA to elsewhere with no guarantee that the oil will reach its destination and be converted to fuel. In the meantime fuel production in the USA has been reduced.

I repeat, if as a minimum Japan achieves the historical conquests, the only surplus oil available to the Allies is that of Abadan. The only Allied refineries which will be short of oil are Australian, their shortfall matching exactly the oil surplus of Abadan. All other Allied oil is consumed by the land connected refineries.

Alfred

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Post #: 15

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 6:04:35 AM

rustysi

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From: LI, NY
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quote:

The interesting discussion above gives you the cost/benefit analysis numbers (particularly Ambassador's posts). But rather than talking about why/why not, if you want to keep the on map industry running at full capacity (not including China)that means taking both oil (to feed the refineries) and fuel (to run HI) to Oz, with some fuel to NZ. India can be easily supplied from Abadan -> Karachi. You have three practical choices for developing an oil stockpile in Australia. The first two attach a dribble level supply to existing convoy routes, the third is a once (twelve tankers) or twice (six tankers) per year proposition.

1 - Turn off the refineries in LAX for a day. Do it from the industry screen, not the city screen, so you don't turn off the aircraft plants as well. You will get more than enough oil to send the 1 tanker load per month required to keep the Oz refineries running. Add the loaded tanker to a CS convoy to Sydney.

2. Load a tanker with oil at Abadan... and then send it (set to no-unload etc) to Capetown by making that its home base, giving it a destination hex on the African coast and telling it to rout coastal. It will slip across the corner of the map and eventually turn up in Capetown. Add it to a supply convoy going to Perth or Melbourne.

3. One tanker per month = twelve per year, (or six twice a year), so fill up 12 tankers at either LAX or Abadan with oil. Then assembly a convoy around them with an equal amount of 19400 or 19000 endurance xAKs carrying fuel, and suitable escorts, including CA level protection and an escort carrier if available. The Long Island with a VMSB on board and searching will scare away AMCs and cause subs to submerge. RN CVE's carrying Swordfish are even better, because they were built with a massive bunker capacity to refuel small escorts on the Atlantic routes. If you can afford it, add an AO carrying fuel to the TF. Then rout those from LAX to SYD, or ABD to PER, to deliver the oil. Even with the tanker endurance propped up by the xAKs and an AO you will probably need to give these convoys a pit stop to refuel. In the Pacific, I tend to develop Christmas Island as a refueling stop, with nav support and a couple of slow AOs to assist operations. In the India Ocean I use Diego Garcia.

Wow, I can definitely use all that when I get to playing the Allied side.

Thanks.

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Post #: 16

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 6:10:14 AM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

What is the logic of stopping refineries in the USA just to send that oil elsewhere. One is merely transferring production of fuel from the USA to elsewhere with no guarantee that the oil will reach its destination and be converted to fuel. In the meantime fuel production in the USA has been reduced.

I repeat, if as a minimum Japan achieves the historical conquests, the only surplus oil available to the Allies is that of Abadan. The only Allied refineries which will be short of oil are Australian, their shortfall matching exactly the oil surplus of Abadan. All other Allied oil is consumed by the land connected refineries.

Alfred

As always Alfred you are spot on, but I reiterate...

quote:

I get it, but many players here are so immersed in the minutia of this game they do whatever...

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Post #: 17

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 6:22:54 AM

RangerJoe

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The best thing to do for Australia is to pull as much fuel as you can from the DEI then the oil if you have excess liquid cargo capacity. Otherwise, don't worry about the Australian oil refineries since it is more efficient for HI production to haul the fuel than the oil. The Allies should have more than enough cargo space to haul supplies, it is the liquid cargo capacity that can run short - especially if you lose tankers and oilers.

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Post #: 18

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 6:48:00 AM

Ian R

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

What is the logic of stopping refineries in the USA just to send that oil elsewhere. One is merely transferring production of fuel from the USA to elsewhere .....

Alfred

None, but the OP was asking how, not why/why not.

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Post #: 19

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 12:25:39 PM

Ambassador

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There are around 45-50k Oil stockpiles in Sumatra/Java/Borneo at start (Scen 1), and excess Oil production (relative to available Refineries) of 130 (Sumatra, at Djambi, once Palembang�s Refineries are taken into account), 25 (Java, at Soerabaja and Tjepoe), 100 (Borneo, at Samarinda), and I don�t count North Sumatra nor Sarawak/Brunei (too exposed), so that�s 255 Oil centers producing 2550 Oil per turn. If the Japanese does not move too fast (doesn�t happen very often these days), the Allies may take a nice haul to Australia in the first two months : 45k starting stockpiles plus a production of around 150k in two months. Nearly 200k Oil will give Oz�s Refineries work for over a year.

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Post #: 20

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 3:42:11 PM

RangerJoe

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Don't forget Boela on the same island as Ambon with 25 oil production as well as resources then across the channel on Papua there is a oil production on 20 oil. A good use for those small tankers is to grab some oil there and consolidate at a larger port if you can.

If you lose those but can recapture and secure them later, then your tankers/oilers in the area hauling fuel in can then haul the oil out.

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Post #: 21

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 5:23:16 PM

Ambassador

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You�re right, I was forgetting those bases, but they�re within normal G3M/G4M range from Babeldaob. It can be tricky, you need to bring some fighters, and some aircraft support. But it could give a good opportunity to bloody a few more unescorted Netties.

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Post #: 22

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 7:16:20 PM

RangerJoe

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Those British carriers will work nicely for that. Keep them one hex away, not in the base.

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Post #: 23

RE: Oil loading - 12/27/2020 9:05:22 PM

jdsrae

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
...don't worry about the Australian oil refineries...

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 24

RE: Oil loading - 1/1/2021 6:52:16 PM

Alpha77

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This is vs. the AI (started new game with I hope better AI as Allied) and there is no problem sending some oil to OZ 2 big TKs would be enough.

Otherwise just send fuel to OZ and NZ, NZ is easy to feed 3-4 big TKs will be enough for a while.

Ofc Abadan to Karachi and Bombay is a "no brainer" In the past I also sent fuel from South Africa to OZ, but do not overdo it cause I had the 2 bases run out of fuel. So send some fuel also to there from Abadan.

But later in the war there will be enough (auto)convois that this is not needed anymore. Check reeinforcements screen for the convois and how many fuel they contain. As said in early 42 there will be a scareness of fuel in Capetown which later rectifies itself with bigger and more supply convois arriving there.

Abadan port ofc needs to build up but already in mid 42 Allies have so much supplies they can basically build every port and airfield up.

Yes the hint to turn a ref off on the WC is a good one, as no oil will load if there is not enough to feed the ref. Which is also important to know as IJ when you wonder why your TKs at Balikpapan etc. do not load oil. The locations will keep a reserve of oil for the refs.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/1/2021 6:56:06 PM >

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Post #: 25

RE: Oil loading - 1/1/2021 10:03:43 PM

RangerJoe

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Send the fuel to Karachi and it will distribute from there, no need to waste time to send it to Bombay.

Ship fuel from the East Coast to Cape Town. The same thing with supplies. Until you have enough escorts for on map convoys, this is a nice place to stockpile those things and later they can either go to India or Australia as needed. This is also a good use for the short legged xAKs on the western part of the map since they will not need refueling. You can also use the AP/AKs if you want to keep them safe until you need them for invasions.

The same thing as above for the East Coast to Panama. That way, ships arriving there do not have to go to the West Coast of the USA to load.

Load oil from the DEI to ship to Australia. Abadan will also provide a slight excess. It is a waste of effort to ship oil from the USA to Australia, it is more efficient to ship fuel.

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Post #: 26