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Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 5:37:01 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Originally supply trucks were meant to be used in sparingly for offensives or special low supply areas like North Africa. Apparently it's turned into a stable like apple pie in America or tea time in England.

The concerns I have...
#1 the micromanagement level of it. You know I hate micro management
#2 the over use of it
#3 if it is now in the absolute category of play.

(A) I was considering making a limitation of how many supply trucks you can have available at any one time. Say 30 so players can't build up this vast quantity of them.

OR (B) changing it to a high production item that is only used on HQs. When used it increases effectiveness of units in a 5 hex range that have a connection to the HQ for say 12%. There would be a limit of 1 or 2 available at any one time in the queue or in the pool.

The thing is making such a large change to a mechanism will create a lot of chaos and is generally not good to do so after game release.

I would like your input on the supply truck mechanic please.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
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- Assault on Communism SC2
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Post #: 1
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 5:52:22 PM   
Jeff_Ahl

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 10/10/2018
Status: offline 		Why not baby steps? You did not do any radical changes initially, but I have to raise my concerns. The game is doing some pretty hard turns now.

Increase the cost is my suggestion. Start there and then evaluate the effect. Think that would make a difference.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 2
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 6:12:59 PM   
squatter

 

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		I think you're right to look at this Alvaro.

I agree with Jeff - probably baby steps to avoid the risk of unbalancing every game being played at once.

Out of the two proposed solutions I would favour A.

I also wonder if it's possible to limit their use to resupply units whose port supply is being blockaded. Currently you can use them to bypass ports which are otherwise completely blockaded. ie possibly they can only be used while under port supply if there is some excess supply still available in a port in any given port supply 'net'. Or perhaps double their cost per unit (6 instead of 3) for units in basic supply?


(in reply to Jeff_Ahl)
Post #: 3
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 6:42:06 PM   
michaelCLARADY

 

Posts: 158
Joined: 12/2/2019
Status: offline 		Leave the trucks as they are.

(in reply to squatter)
Post #: 4
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 7:00:19 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff_Ahl

Why not baby steps? You did not do any radical changes initially, but I have to raise my concerns. The game is doing some pretty hard turns now.

Increase the cost is my suggestion. Start there and then evaluate the effect. Think that would make a difference.


+1

Better yet, do what michaelCLARADY said.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 1/8/2021 7:03:34 PM >

(in reply to Jeff_Ahl)
Post #: 5
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 7:56:56 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		I'm just asking. It was brought to my attention.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
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Post #: 6
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 8:02:18 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline 		My option would be, limit it to 60 and raise the price a little, so that it really is a luxury item.

< Message edited by ComadrejaKorp -- 1/8/2021 8:04:49 PM >

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 7
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 8:32:22 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		I would leave the mechanism to buy supply trucks like it is today. I do not think this is too much micromanagement.
The only thing I would change is to limit the maximum number of supply trucks per country.

My idea is to have a formula based on the Logistics points.

Taking the actual numbers in the game, I arrive to something like this:




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 8
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 8:56:03 PM   
baloo7777


Posts: 1190
Joined: 5/18/2009
From: eastern CT
Status: offline 		Just curious... it was America's industrial output that plowed the Axis under (remember the Arsenal of Democracy)... so how are Germany, Britain, and the USSR logistics so much higher than the USA? The resulting 5% supply trucks are pretty far off then also?

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JRR

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Post #: 9
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 9:01:27 PM   
baloo7777


Posts: 1190
Joined: 5/18/2009
From: eastern CT
Status: offline 		As far as the supply trucks go, my PBEM experience is limited, but against the AI I certainly use up supply trucks at a high rate. I would rather see some sort of historically based limiting on the use of supply trucks by Country... meaning by late-1943 the allied air campaign having reduced Germany's production to bring down their ability to resupply (by supply trucks).

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JRR

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Post #: 10
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/8/2021 10:05:43 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		The US splits it between 2 theaters.
Their logistics is also based on the reality that they couldn't field more than X units overseas despite being able to support over 200 divisions on home soil.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to baloo7777)
Post #: 11
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/9/2021 7:56:27 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		This formula is perhaps better.

Like this, UK and France have less supply trucks than Germany.
But later, UK and USA can have more supply trucks than Germany.
And USSR can have more supply trucks than anybody.

Just an idea.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 12
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/9/2021 8:05:45 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		And since supply trucks are coming by (x10). If we adapt a little the Logistics points (in red), something like this:




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 13
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/9/2021 9:39:26 AM   
MorningDew

 

Posts: 1170
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline 		I'm a fan of baby steps. I would expect a cost increase will have the effect of a cap.

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Post #: 14
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/15/2021 1:12:17 AM   
Insano

 

Posts: 228
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Joplin, Missouri
Status: offline 		Hi wanted to put in my two cents on this. I like supply trucks as they are but I would add the capability to build more logistics. There are different times with different countries throughout the game where there is nothing to build as you are capped on logistics. You don't want to disband units to free up logistics and supply trucks are one of the few things you can build that don't cost logistics. Now I know I should just hoard my production for when I will need it - but what's the fun in that

(in reply to MorningDew)
Post #: 15
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/15/2021 1:43:12 AM   
battlevonwar


Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline 		I wasn't going to chime in here on the "Supply Trucks," but I have to. They are OP and part of the Micro of the game. Not the "ONLY," micro part of the game ... Nobody wants to expend supply trucks on Infantry with a HQ? It's a waste of resources. Supply Trucks are too expensive generally for this. You pump them into your Fighters, CAS and Armor. This keeps them going!

Issues are for instance in the narrow frontages on these new maps and already in France you sort of required to use a bit of them to break the enemy before you are broken. Panzers have to utilize all their movement. When the fronts widen they actually are then more dangerous. Plus coupled with Experience + Tech = Strong Units...

Historically all the US divisions were pretty much motorized(truck supply heavy) as were the British so. The Germans and Soviets were both truck poor(aside the Soviets who got some lendlease).

Hard for me to tell you to change something until you see how it functions on a larger map with lots more rivers and rough terrain. . . I might hold off?

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 16
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/15/2021 3:21:46 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Personally I would like supply trucks just left as they are; but I am a supply truck junkie so perhaps I am biased. If the Rule is going to be changed (which I am against) than I would prefer putting hard limits on the total number supply trucks each nation can have either in their pool or in the build queue.

(in reply to battlevonwar)
Post #: 17
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/15/2021 3:40:40 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		I was considering the following. A nation can have at most 3 in stock or being built at any one time.

They can only be used on HQs.

They have a single large effect on upto X land units within 5 hexes of the HQ.

double the bonus since they will be not used every turn

#1 Lowers micro management
#2 keeps them to limited use
#3 makes it a more operational decision that a tactical one
#4 lowers casualties for a more balanced late game.



_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 18
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/15/2021 5:51:48 PM   
Jeff_Ahl

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 10/10/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I was considering the following. A nation can have at most 3 in stock or being built at any one time.

They can only be used on HQs.

They have a single large effect on upto X land units within 5 hexes of the HQ.

double the bonus since they will be not used every turn

#1 Lowers micro management
#2 keeps them to limited use
#3 makes it a more operational decision that a tactical one
#4 lowers casualties for a more balanced late game.




Well, the game is beginning to derail when it comes to changes. Can not see any bigger issue with truck supply as it is. But I can see alot of possible problems if you are going to implement the suggestions above.

Smaller in size army will benifit more from it. Supply trucks now is a tool to break stalemates or actually do a succesful breakthrough in late game. Your suggestions has the obvious risk to make games bogging down in places it should not.

Please do not walk into the all to common trap that alot of strategy games do and make radical changes. Steel Division 44 went from excellent to totally FUBAR after some major changes.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 19
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/15/2021 5:54:32 PM   
baloo7777


Posts: 1190
Joined: 5/18/2009
From: eastern CT
Status: offline 		I think your supply truck fix will drastically change the game. Tactical and ground support air would lose effectiveness after just a few attacks and take so long to make effective again, the game will deteriorate to be more like a WW1 Infantry vs Infantry in trench warfare along the front.
I prefer hard limits according to each countries historical supply abilities.

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JRR

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Post #: 20
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/15/2021 5:56:32 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		I put out ideas.

One issue with what I am reading is the exact nature players are using trucks when it wasn't the intention.

But notice no changes were made in the beta.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Jeff_Ahl)
Post #: 21
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/15/2021 7:52:29 PM   
squatter

 

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		I agree probably not move to a new HQ system.

My preference: Make them them 40PP instead of 30PP, and units should only be able to use them when within 5 hexes of an HQ.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 22
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/15/2021 9:41:01 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		Logistics for all nations (including the unlimited powerhouse of the USA) was a pinch point ... The Allies once back on the European continent were living hand to mouth moving supplies from the beach or port to the ever farther front line ....

So I'd suggest (if it isn't too hard to implement) is the # of supply trucks to use per supply point be based on the distance a unit is from a supply base or HQ unit .... The other alternative is to make supply trucks a technology and allow the players to invest in them and improve their ability to supply the front line troops.....

(in reply to squatter)
Post #: 23
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/15/2021 11:41:47 PM   
Jeff_Ahl

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 10/10/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I put out ideas.

One issue with what I am reading is the exact nature players are using trucks when it wasn't the intention.

But notice no changes were made in the beta.


Yeah, I know no changes have been made yet but I notice that you are very into this change even though nobody (at least in this thread) wants it.

Should the supply trucks cost more? Yeah probably, but no other changes. Really hope you cool down on the changes overall.

I have really appreaciated your baby step-policy and how you have been careful even though we forum hang arounds have been nagging about that, this and that (me included) but your policy clearly are changing. Have not tested a new game since the big change with the navy, but I'll wait til the next patch because it seems even more are on the way. Better to take the whole blow at ones.

You have created a pearl amongst strategy/operational games, be careful how you handle this baby! Changes are good...but not when thrown at at 250 km/h (what ever that is in mp/h)

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 24
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/16/2021 8:02:20 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Even if I made this change it wouldn't be in the next patch.

Another idea is cost relative to unit type.

Inf/air 1 supply truck
armor/mech 2 supply trucks.
ahh, ahh, ahh, *lighting and thunder*

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Jeff_Ahl)
Post #: 25
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/16/2021 11:42:38 PM   
Jeff_Ahl

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 10/10/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Even if I made this change it wouldn't be in the next patch.

Another idea is cost relative to unit type.

Inf/air 1 supply truck
armor/mech 2 supply trucks.
ahh, ahh, ahh, *lighting and thunder*


Well, that could work as well.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 26
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/17/2021 6:28:22 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Alvaro, although supply trucks may not be working as you intended, I actually think they work very well indeed. Though I think you might be onto something by increasing the cost for armour, mechanized and air units to 2. But in that case I think the cost of supply trucks should be reduced to 20 production.

Also, if your are going to limit supply trucks in some way then please increase the port sizes in the Pas de Calais area of France. As it is as soon as the Allies land a dozen units any excess are in basic supply. In fact the Allies were able to supply a much larger force with the ports they captured even before Antwerp was operational.

(in reply to Jeff_Ahl)
Post #: 27
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/17/2021 3:13:57 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Reducing cost of supply trucks is maybe a good idea if we put a max limit. This way, it ease supply trucks building for the next big offensive.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 28
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/18/2021 1:35:58 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		I might go with the 2x cost for armor/mech. I've played enough games where I see how the mechanic fails with certain aspects.


_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 29
RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 1/18/2021 9:29:43 PM   
Uxbridge


Posts: 1505
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline 		I've been off the game for a while due to the blasted Lady Corona having a crush on me, so I haven't read the threads leading up to this one. But I do like the idea "... meant to be used in sparingly for offensives ...", just like the offensives we bought in TSR's European Theater of War. Nowdays I always use as many trucks as I can muster.

Basically, they're fine, but they're also too easy to use. If in stock you can use them immediately without any prior planning.

As a wish, I think that the trucks should be produced in large blocks, maybe 50 trucks in each. Then when you supply the blocks to the front, an HQ must buy it the turn/or any turn before it is to be used. Thus the HQ fill upp with trucks for the future offensive or defensive effort. Buying a block (or several) always inactivate the HQ, that must have been at full OP before the purchase. When it's time for the offensive, the HQ pays with the block just as a single unit would do when buying a truck. Again the HQ's OP is either lost or halved. From that point, however, units within that HQ's command range may buy trucks freely up to the limit of the HQ's collected capacity.

Due to the work involved and risks inherent when changing anything, maybe it could be a thought for WarPlan 2.

< Message edited by Uxbridge -- 1/18/2021 9:32:21 PM >

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