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RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/4/2021 11:49:06 PM

AlvaroSousa

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It's July and you are next to Paris. It's fine.

You can't expect historical results vs an aware Allied player. They won't make the same foolish mistakes as history did.

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- WarPlan
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Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
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- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 61

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 2:32:54 AM

ncc1701e

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This is not my point. This screenshot was taken before the new supply trucks rule. My opponent sillyflower is very good at defending France. Supply trucks were heavily used to achieve this July result.
Now, with this modification, I don't think I will be able to achieve the same result. sillyflower is not taking beta patches. But I will see once the patch is out.

The game now clearly favors defense imo.

I can progress in Russia, right now, because the Red Army based experience is at 30% and the initial corps are at 20%.
Not sure the French corps at 40% or 50% experience and the UK corps at 50% experience will allow me to do the same.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 62

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 2:48:11 AM

AlvaroSousa

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The supply trucks had a snowballing effect. In a small campaign vs minor powers it didn't really matter.

But in Russia it is a game breaker.

_____________________________

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- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 63

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 11:30:08 AM

ncc1701e

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Understood but if German player stalls in front of France, it is also a problem.

@WraithMagus - do you have the latest 10U7? I would like to do a mirror game with you to test this.
Meanwhile with @MorningDew, we are near Septembre 1941 in Russia. Mirror game too, we will see how the first winter goes.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 64

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 12:35:03 PM

stjeand

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Sadly I will need more experience vs players to give a good assessment.

I can say in my first dozen games against the AI I never used a single supply truck. Never even built them. This was against Uber computers also...
But they have some really weird defense plans especially Russia if you wait till 1942...they still have all their weak units.

Many players will upgrade over that time.

But being honest...I do not like supply trucks at all. I understand that Alvaro was going for...basically a quick up of the units efficiency for the start of the battle but they would still need a rest not long into battle.

Having 200 supply trucks would be logistically impossible for any country to manage.
I do understand trying to keep the mechanics easy though.

Option...
SO...if there was a limit on the trucks...say 1 or 2% of your base logistics...
What if there was another setting for units, like Garrison...but called Rest or OnLeave.
In this mode it would allow the unit to recover more efficiency perhaps 100% more but at a loss of say 50% attack and defense during time in that mode as well as you have to be behind the front lines by X hexes and if that is interfered with it would change what you efficiency you gain as units would have to be called back up rather than resting in case of attack.

Not sure how easy this would be to code or even if possible...

Just another thought.

< Message edited by stjeand -- 2/5/2021 12:37:04 PM >

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Post #: 65

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 2:38:34 PM

AlvaroSousa

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I thought about all configurations. A limitation only means more micromanagement of players to do the same thing. Like if I said limit is 40 trucks they would just set aside 120pp a turn and fill back in scale what they used. Same result more micromanagement.

The solution was cost and lowering it's benefit by 1%. That is what the math says.

By nature this will force a strategic decision... buy trucks or buy units?

The Russian front should be filled with Germany and Russian units... not have a handful all using supply trucks.
It's better for the A.I., better for the players.

I won't make major changes to the system at this point.

WP2 I will probably do something different with them that makes it less of a chore to use them.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 66

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 3:47:02 PM

Harrybanana

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The supply trucks had a snowballing effect. In a small campaign vs minor powers it didn't really matter.

But in Russia it is a game breaker.

Why do you say it is a gamebreaker in Russia? I have never had any difficulty as the Russians stopping the Axis and I assume my opponent was making liberal use of supply trucks. Of course, so was I as the Russians.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 67

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 4:17:43 PM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I thought about all configurations. A limitation only means more micromanagement of players to do the same thing. Like if I said limit is 40 trucks they would just set aside 120pp a turn and fill back in scale what they used. Same result more micromanagement.

The solution was cost and lowering it's benefit by 1%. That is what the math says.

By nature this will force a strategic decision... buy trucks or buy units?

The Russian front should be filled with Germany and Russian units... not have a handful all using supply trucks.
It's better for the A.I., better for the players.

I won't make major changes to the system at this point.

WP2 I will probably do something different with them that makes it less of a chore to use them.

With respect, as the game exists now the strategic decision is to buy trucks or buy units or buy some of both. I believe there is a good balance between the two. I probably make as much or more use of supply trucks as anybody, but I still spend far more of my production on purchasing, replacing and upgrading units than I do on supply trucks. Supply trucks are vital to sustain any advance, but you have to have the units to use them on too. I would estimate that roughly 20% or less of my Axis production (less for the Allies) is spent on supply trucks with the balance spent on units. I note that in the 1941 Scenario the Germans start with 250 supply trucks, I have never had more than 150 and that was very rare. I would say that with the present system the Russian Front is filled with German and Russian units with some supply trucks used by both. At least that is my experience.

In any event, with the proposed nerfing of supply trucks I think the strategic decision will be obvious that building units is the only real choice. As the Axis and Russians I will probably build very few supply trucks. The only exception will be the Western Allies who (because port supply is also nerfed) will need to build some to compensate. If this is what you want to have happen then I suppose you will get your wish, but don't pretend that there will any longer be a balance between choosing whether to build supply trucks or units.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 68

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 4:33:45 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The solution was cost and lowering it's benefit by 1%. That is what the math says.

Lowering it's benefit by 2% not 1%:

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

So in this weeks beta we are trying the following.

Armor, mech, air units will cost double supply trucks to use... 2 trucks per 10 strength
Infantry will still be 1 truck per 10 strength.
Effectiveness recovery reduced from 6% to 4%

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 69

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 4:45:35 PM

AlvaroSousa

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My mistake. 2%.

Now that the Bug Front is quiet I am going to run my own tests on this change.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 70

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 9:07:38 PM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The solution was cost and lowering it's benefit by 1%. That is what the math says.

Lowering it's benefit by 2% not 1%:

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

So in this weeks beta we are trying the following.

Armor, mech, air units will cost double supply trucks to use... 2 trucks per 10 strength
Infantry will still be 1 truck per 10 strength.
Effectiveness recovery reduced from 6% to 4%

I (and I suspect everyone else) used supply trucks almost exclusively on armour, mech, air and paras. So the effect of this will be to increase the cost by 100% while reducing the benefit by 33%. With respect, that is not a minor tweak; it is a significant change in the usefulness of supply trucks. Like I said, I don't think too many people will be buying very many supply trucks anymore. Buy them to beef up your paras to 100% so they can drop, for invasion troops so they can have full OPs on the turn after invasion and the Allies need them after they invade mainland Europe. Otherwise just build units.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 2/5/2021 9:08:54 PM >

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Post #: 71

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 9:16:20 PM

ncc1701e

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I am not yet in the blizzard but I suspect trucks will be useful for Axis units to support Soviet winter.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 72

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/5/2021 10:05:13 PM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I am not yet in the blizzard but I suspect trucks will be useful for Axis units to support Soviet winter.

True, but what would be more useful spending the production points on, supply trucks to increase a few units effectiveness by 4% each, or purchasing a brand new infantry unit that will come on the map with 100% effectiveness and can than be railed to the danger spot? When supply trucks increased effectiveness by 6% I thought it was a bit of a toss up. Now I think the edge goes to building the new unit. Especially since infantry only take 60 days to build and supply trucks take 90 days.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 73

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/6/2021 2:33:57 PM

ComadrejaKorp

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In my first Barbarrossa as Axis in Beta and it has worked well, with approx 200 trucks I managed to finish a successful campaign but taking tanks and aviation to the limit, I will tell you if I survive in winter.

We will have to continue testing, but it seems that with this change the pace of the war slows down a bit and / or casualties increase (this is now not a problem due to the new manpower reinforcements), it seems the right way to extend the games further from 43.

Now they are really a luxury item, before, when the turn began they were used in all aircraft and armored vehicles, now you must choose carefully where you spend them.
I think the change is good, but I will have to try it more times to be sure.

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 74

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/6/2021 4:04:24 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I am not yet in the blizzard but I suspect trucks will be useful for Axis units to support Soviet winter.

True, but what would be more useful spending the production points on, supply trucks to increase a few units effectiveness by 4% each, or purchasing a brand new infantry unit that will come on the map with 100% effectiveness and can than be railed to the danger spot? When supply trucks increased effectiveness by 6% I thought it was a bit of a toss up. Now I think the edge goes to building the new unit. Especially since infantry only take 60 days to build and supply trucks take 90 days.

Very true.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 75

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/6/2021 4:05:36 PM

Harrybanana

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

In my first Barbarrossa as Axis in Beta and it has worked well, with approx 200 trucks I managed to finish a successful campaign but taking tanks and aviation to the limit, I will tell you if I survive in winter.

We will have to continue testing, but it seems that with this change the pace of the war slows down a bit and / or casualties increase (this is now not a problem due to the new manpower reinforcements), it seems the right way to extend the games further from 43.

Now they are really a luxury item, before, when the turn began they were used in all aircraft and armored vehicles, now you must choose carefully where you spend them.
I think the change is good, but I will have to try it more times to be sure.

Ok then, I guess I will have to wait to see. Maybe I am being too pessimistic.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)

Post #: 76

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/6/2021 4:09:34 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

In my first Barbarrossa as Axis in Beta and it has worked well, with approx 200 trucks I managed to finish a successful campaign but taking tanks and aviation to the limit, I will tell you if I survive in winter.

We will have to continue testing, but it seems that with this change the pace of the war slows down a bit and / or casualties increase (this is now not a problem due to the new manpower reinforcements), it seems the right way to extend the games further from 43.

Now they are really a luxury item, before, when the turn began they were used in all aircraft and armored vehicles, now you must choose carefully where you spend them.
I think the change is good, but I will have to try it more times to be sure.

Same here, around 200 trucks when I start Barbarossa and I have nothing left now. We are in September 1941. The campaign's pace has been slowed down but this is obliging to take care of logistics more carefully.

Roads to Leningrad.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)

Post #: 77

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/6/2021 4:28:16 PM

ncc1701e

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I also find that the corps to army conversion seems to work nicely. Plenty of losses and the conversion is done faster than with few losses.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 78

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/6/2021 6:05:34 PM

ComadrejaKorp

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The issue of the conversion of the armies I suppose that with practice it will be more useful, or perhaps later in time. Currently in my games they continue to work individually as Rifle Corps, as they become randomly, it is difficult to join two in a front with Axis pressing, and more difficult for them to have the same specialty and the same tech year (so as not to lose pp)

I don't remember what the intention of this change was, I suppose they are a little stronger than the Rifle Corps and can be put together to form an Army.

Maybe I have missed something?

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 79

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/6/2021 6:40:58 PM

ncc1701e

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The intent was to speed up the formation of armies. Before rifle corps were disbanded for building new armies after 60 days. Now, they are remaining on the map if you have time to save them for merging them together in full armies. Nice addition imo. Rifle corps are no more wasted.

Strangely enough, the process now seems to be stuck in my game. I have no more conversion since a lot of turns. I will monitor this.

EDIT: Alvaro, did you establish a date after which all corps must be converted? Something like May 1942 or December 1942?

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 2/7/2021 5:54:48 PM >

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)

Post #: 80

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/6/2021 7:00:18 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

In my first Barbarrossa as Axis in Beta and it has worked well, with approx 200 trucks I managed to finish a successful campaign but taking tanks and aviation to the limit, I will tell you if I survive in winter.

Could you please post a screenshot of your frontline? With MorningDew, we are trying to compare where we are.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)

Post #: 81

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/6/2021 7:36:14 PM

ComadrejaKorp

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I never disbanded them, but I like this change, the more options the better.

I did not take screenshots and the game has progressed, I will count how many Rifles have been transformed and I will let you know.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 82

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/6/2021 9:13:33 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Strangely enough, the process now seems to be stuck in my game. I have no more conversion since a lot of turns. I will monitor this.

EDIT: Alvaro, did you establish a date after which all corps must be converted? May 1942?

OK the conversion has restarted when the frontline was stabilized. Is there a rule like the Rifle Corps must not move the turn before its conversion? I wonder.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 83

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/11/2021 5:46:11 PM

ncc1701e

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Alvaro, did you establish a date after which all corps must be converted? Something like May 1942 or December 1942?

I still have corps in February 1942.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 84

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/11/2021 5:50:05 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

In my first Barbarrossa as Axis in Beta and it has worked well, with approx 200 trucks I managed to finish a successful campaign but taking tanks and aviation to the limit, I will tell you if I survive in winter.

So, how is your winter? Mine starts to be difficult. Effectiveness is dropping. I hope to see few Soviet attacks from my opponent soon.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)

Post #: 85

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/11/2021 5:54:14 PM

AlvaroSousa

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It is just a formula. There is no set date.

To address the comment about about +100% cost -33% less effect... The double cost was 100% required because of it's effectiveness with armor. There is zero reason to spend it on infantry when the firepower you gain from armor is twice as much.

So I see it as armor was half the cost it should have been and now it is accurate.

It's like paying the same price for a cheap battery or an excellent battery. You will always pay the same price for the excellent battery.
But when there is a price differential then you have to choose based on need.

This beta will be for a while to make sure this mechanic is correct.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 86

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/11/2021 6:40:56 PM

ncc1701e

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All right will wait to see when the formula ends

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 87

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/11/2021 8:09:23 PM

ComadrejaKorp

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Finally I was able to advance a lot and my opponent gave up the game.
As it was a mirror game, we continue in the one that I am Ally, it is February 1943, after resisting 2 campaigns I have 6 tanks supported by the Lutwaffe 1 hex from Moscow, its fall seems inevitable when the first clear turn arrives, but the Russian economy is good and I can counterattack, very exciting.
I still have a lot of Rifle Corps.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 88

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/11/2021 9:37:53 PM

Harrybanana

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

It is just a formula. There is no set date.

To address the comment about about +100% cost -33% less effect... The double cost was 100% required because of it's effectiveness with armor. There is zero reason to spend it on infantry when the firepower you gain from armor is twice as much.

So I see it as armor was half the cost it should have been and now it is accurate.

It's like paying the same price for a cheap battery or an excellent battery. You will always pay the same price for the excellent battery.
But when there is a price differential then you have to choose based on need.

This beta will be for a while to make sure this mechanic is correct.

You are absolutely right Alvaro that Players used supply trucks primarily on Armour. But, of course, that was historically the units that received supply priority in the War itself for the very reasons you mentioned. Supply priority was always given to the mobile units.When supply was short in North Africa which units do you think received the bulk of supply (oil, ammunition, etc) that was available; the armour/mechanized units, of course. The same is true of Russia and Normandy. But even if you are correct that the cost for armour and air should be 2X that of infantry (and I can see where armour should cost more, just not sure about 2X), why double the cost for armour and air, why not halve it for infantry? And why the double whammy of also reducing its effectiveness by 50%. Personally I just think this was too drastic a measure (similar to the drastic cuts made to air units effectiveness), but we will have to wait and see.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 89

RE: Supply Truck mechanic need input. - 2/11/2021 9:39:47 PM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

It is just a formula. There is no set date.

To address the comment about about +100% cost -33% less effect... The double cost was 100% required because of it's effectiveness with armor. There is zero reason to spend it on infantry when the firepower you gain from armor is twice as much.

So I see it as armor was half the cost it should have been and now it is accurate.

It's like paying the same price for a cheap battery or an excellent battery. You will always pay the same price for the excellent battery.
But when there is a price differential then you have to choose based on need.

This beta will be for a while to make sure this mechanic is correct.

You are absolutely right Alvaro that Players used supply trucks primarily on Armour. But, of course, that was historically the units that received supply priority in the War itself for the very reasons you mentioned. Supply priority was always given to the mobile units.When supply was short in North Africa which units do you think received the bulk of supply (oil, ammunition, etc) that was available; the armour/mechanized units, of course. The same is true of Russia and Normandy. But even if you are correct that the cost for armour and air should be 2X that of infantry (and I can see where armour should cost more, just not sure about 2X), why double the cost for armour and air, why not halve it for infantry? And why the double whammy of also reducing its effectiveness by 50%. Personally I just think this was too drastic a measure (similar to the too drastic cuts made to air units effectiveness), but we will have to wait and see.