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RE: the breakthroughs in T180 and T184

 
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RE: the breakthroughs in T180 and T184 - 3/10/2021 4:17:06 PM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blagrot

Thanks for the AAR.

I notice in the Breslau fight you apparently killed more Germans than were in the battle, assuming this isn't E-Adolf clearing out the people he blames for the cities fall then I'm curious to know what happened there?


tends to happen if there are formations attached to the city but not to the combat units, so I'd guess those would be fixed AA. possibly construction assets that happened to get in the way ...

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Post #: 181
RE: the breakthroughs in T180 and T184 - 3/10/2021 8:47:22 PM   
John B.


Posts: 3909
Joined: 9/25/2011
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Is see that the game has reached December 44/January 45. Is there some chance on the German side that EDolph commits the panzer reserves earmarked for the Ardennes and sends them east instead?

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Post #: 182
RE: the breakthroughs in T180 and T184 - 3/10/2021 9:03:25 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		unfortunately not, at the moment there is an event for the Ardennes offensive (raises the combat intensity of the Western Theatre Box) and then the scripted reinforcement of 6 SS Pzr in Feb (if I recall)

it would be neat to make it more situational, if the Soviets are around 5 weeks ahead of time (which is basically where I am) and taking Poznan and Breslau then the whole Ardennes thing becomes even more of an odd decision?

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Post #: 183
T189 - 3/12/2021 9:45:24 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		3 February 1945

So lets welcome 1945 ... and what may be the end game phase?

T185

Both 1 Blr and 1 Ukr in a similar problem. Supply lines are stretched (even my super depots are not filling up to capacity – first time this has happened).

1 Ukr swung 1 SA and 5GTA south towards Vienna and Bratislava – may give me an earlier capture, but should help 3 and 2 Ukr regain some momentum.

1 Blr was snagged up on the pockets around Brieg and the AI opened the main pocket in some heavy counter-attacks. Running very low on CPP but 1 GTA managed to break out towards Bautzen.

Geographically I am trying to avoid all that rough/heavy woods to the north, if I can cross the Elbe near Dresden I can start to threaten the German NSS network (I doubt the Western Allies will be much help) [1]. It also, maybe, may set up 1 Blr to take Berlin from the south-west.



Reason for my relative pessimism is 2 Blr was relatively well rested after the Poznan battles, has the best supply network of any formation and decent levels of air support. In the end the local German line fell apart but it took the efforts of my 3 best Gds Armies (1, 3 and 4) and had to commit 5SA and 2 GTA without a clear breakout just to secure my gains.

So that is 3 of the hexes towards Berlin with 9 to go, I can't sustain this and the AI is well placed to weaken its barrier to 1 Baltic (which is blocked) to reinforce this sector.



T186

Following 1 Ukr's attack towards Vienna the Axis position in Slovakia and Hungary started to fall apart. 4 Ukr secured the eastern edge of Lake Balaton, 3 Ukr made significant gains south and west of Budapest and along the line of the Danube while 2 Ukr moved to occupy Slovakia and improve the flank protection of 1 Ukr.



In turn 5GTA and 1SA maintained their drive on Vienna and Bratislava. Here and there, German resistance was enough to stall the offensive but they had been reduced to isolated strong points. By the end of the week, Soviet tanks occupied Bratislava threatening to undermine the entire German defensive line in Hungary.



The rest of 1 Ukr and 1 Blr co-operated in destroying the Neisse pockets and creating a new encirclement east of Koenigratz.



2 Blr continued its drive to the Oder hampered by strong German defensive lines and poor terrain. A combination of good supply and reliable air cover was enough to allow steady gains.



T187

Lull in the north due to weather and supply problems.

Situation along the Danube. 2 Ukr manages to cut off the retreat of some Hungarian units from central Slovakia. Also releases elements of 1 Ukr by filling in down the eastern side of the salient towards Bratislava and Vienna.

3 Ukr follows up the retreating axis forces north of the Danube and encircles Budapest. 7 GA is back to 100 CPP so ready to assault next turn.

4 Ukr managing a small encirclement south of Lake Balaton – only possible as the German units here are even weaker than the Soviets.

VVS bringing in around 2,000 tons of freight to the formations at Budapest and Bratislava – does make a real difference.



T188

2 Blr's offensive towards Berlin was blocked by strong German defensive lines, however 1 Blr managed to break out around Breslau and its armoured formations forced the Elbe just south of Dresden off the march.



The German position in Bohemia was equally catastrophic as all semblance of an organised defense fell apart. Lead elements of 2GA liberated Prague.



At the other end of its long front, elements of 5GTA fought their way into Vienna.

Meanwhile 7GA took Budapest by direct assault in heavy fighting.



T189

1 Baltic put the German lines north of Berlin under pressure. Of more importance 2 Blr cleared more of the east bank of the Elbe while elements of 2GA captured Frankfurt an der Oder giving them a bridgehead on the west bank. With no real scope for exploitation the armoured formations were not committed.



To the south, 1 Blr captured Dresden and cleared out the pockets around Koeniggraetz. The front started to redeploy to strike northwards, first towards Leipzig and then Berlin.



1 Ukr was stalled in Bohemia with long supply lines. Even a moderate German response was enough to place the formations around Prague back on the defensive.

Around Vienna, 5 GTA was locked into the front lines but managed to push one tank corps east to join up with lead elements of 3 Ukr and close off the German retreat from Slovakia. At Budapest, 3 Ukr managed to over-run the last of the bypassed German formations.

To the south, 4 Ukr made limited gains simply as the German formations facing them were so weak.



Losses – mine much as normal, Axis varies according to the number of pocketed units I finish off.



OOB - I'd like to reduce the size of 2 and 4 Ukr (to ease my supply position) but need the formations to deal with the final pockets. That should take me back to around 7.2m. German numbers consistently down, as they are no longer able to replace much that they actually lose.



Starting to worry about the weather – presume it will start raining sometime in mid-Feb if I recall from VtB.

I'm clearly over-stretched on logistics so mud is not good news, even with good roads.



In terms of winning, I now have two options. I have the VP for an auto-win at the start of April 1945 and can win earlier if I take Berlin before that date.


[1] So the NSS concept becomes important again. In the production model, they are where it is all pulled together and then the material sent out. But there are some special rules that now come into play:

a) if the Germans lose 1, then their auto-rebuilds stop (not much of a loss as they increasingly lack the material to refit their destroyed formations;
b) If an enemy unit is adjacent to a NSS then the huge stockpile bonus is lost and it reverts to the capacity of a normal depot (it regains this if it is then cleared of enemy units). This can happen at Moscow – and is quite an incentive for the German player in 1941. The stockpile over capacity is mostly lost;
c) If an NSS cannot trace a hex path (any type/length) to another NSS then it ceases to work as a NSS

Now (c) is important, as the assumption is the Western Allies will take Frankfurt in around March 1945, if the Soviets have Vienna and Prague then the German production system just collapses. Stocks in depots are available but no more are added.


< Message edited by loki100 -- 3/12/2021 9:55:43 AM >

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Post #: 184
RE: the breakthroughs in T180 and T184 - 3/12/2021 5:50:49 PM   
John B.


Posts: 3909
Joined: 9/25/2011
From: Virginia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

unfortunately not, at the moment there is an event for the Ardennes offensive (raises the combat intensity of the Western Theatre Box) and then the scripted reinforcement of 6 SS Pzr in Feb (if I recall)

it would be neat to make it more situational, if the Soviets are around 5 weeks ahead of time (which is basically where I am) and taking Poznan and Breslau then the whole Ardennes thing becomes even more of an odd decision?

Or make it optional to the German player at some cost in VP or accelerated western progress. This can give a human German player something to look forward to near the end of the game to avoid the "well, for the next two years of game time all I'll be doing is filling holes" that makes east front games such a slog for the Germans after 42/early 43. It's always fun to at least have the chance to hit back a little bit.

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Post #: 185
RE: the breakthroughs in T180 and T184 - 3/12/2021 7:17:48 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

unfortunately not, at the moment there is an event for the Ardennes offensive (raises the combat intensity of the Western Theatre Box) and then the scripted reinforcement of 6 SS Pzr in Feb (if I recall)

it would be neat to make it more situational, if the Soviets are around 5 weeks ahead of time (which is basically where I am) and taking Poznan and Breslau then the whole Ardennes thing becomes even more of an odd decision?

Or make it optional to the German player at some cost in VP or accelerated western progress. This can give a human German player something to look forward to near the end of the game to avoid the "well, for the next two years of game time all I'll be doing is filling holes" that makes east front games such a slog for the Germans after 42/early 43. It's always fun to at least have the chance to hit back a little bit.


aye I agree, branching events are ideal for this sort of situation.

Having said that, the second half of the game is far more dynamic than in WiTE1. Playing the axis in Stal-Berlin and there is all sorts of scope for being creative (& a need - a passive defence will just get crushed), even this late in the game both the AI and a German player can hit back.

In a way its the reverse of 1941 where the Soviet player is much less passive than in #1

If you take full manual control of the Theatres, then yes you could grab 6 SS PzrA and commit it to the map in November/December and take the hit vs the Allies, so even within the core game you regain that sort of agency.

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Post #: 186
RE: the breakthroughs in T180 and T184 - 3/13/2021 4:46:07 PM   
John B.


Posts: 3909
Joined: 9/25/2011
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Thanks!

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Post #: 187
T193 - 3/14/2021 10:49:31 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		3 March 1945


T190


Danube valley. 2 Ukr has finished off most of the by-passed formations and I'll start pulling some of its units back to the reserve. 4Ukr is still engaged with by-passed units around Lake Balaton. 3 Ukr starts moving into Upper Austria (and again releasing some formations for the reserve), its potential end target is Munich [1]. 1 Ukr broke out in S Bohemia with a notional target of Nuremberg.



1 and 2 Blr launch localised attacks to improve their position for the final assault on Berlin.

T191

Weather watch – looks like snow/clear again next week but then those low pressure areas may well bring rain and mud.

May as well make as much use of this turn and the next one and worry about sorting out supply lines etc for late February [2].



Every now and then encounter high experience LW formations, but despite my own losses can usually do so much damage they rarely sustain any effort.



Rare German counter-attack near Dresden but 1 Blr still managed steady gains along the Elbe. Clearly of more importance, 2 Blr broke out of its bridgheads around Frankfurt and its armoured formations reached the outskirts of Berlin.

Guess it now depends on what is defending the city. I suspect I'll need to cut the rail links first as I doubt the Allies will manage to capture the other Frankfurt at any stage soon – my guess is they are around 4 weeks behind schedule.



To the south, neither side now have a coherent front as the Germans seek to defend particular sectors. 1 Ukr pushes into western Bohemia, 2 and 3 Ukr swapping positions around Vienna to free up 3 Ukr for its drive on Munich. 4 Ukr has bypassed Axis formations on the Croatia-Hungary borders.



T192

Well weather forecast was wrong – heavy rain/heavy mud almost everywhere apart from the moutain regions.

Pressed on around Berlin, if I can surround the city that will collapse the German positions everywhere (no functioning NSS) so their only supply will be that currently in the depot system and the units.

Not much happened in Bohemia or along the lower Elbe. Everything here is now rather fragmented – and of little practical importance.

In S Germany/Austria, the German forces are falling apart – most defeats trigger a rout so I'm pushing my armour as far as it will go and worrying about flanks/encirclements later.

T193

The weather turned badly for the AI – apart from the Baltic region (blizzard) its cold and clear everywhere. Even worse (for them), looks like a similar pattern next week [3]:



1 Baltic finally breaks out around Stettin, 2 Blr cut the rail links to the north and west of Berlin (and is now rather over-extended) while 1 Blr took Leipzig.

Worth noting the number of German routs, that is happening off almost every combat now as I suspect their combat elements are very low, even in their few notionally relatively strong formations.



Not too much happened in Bohemia apart from destroying pockets and moving up fresh units.

Axis forces almost now driven from Hungary (a few to the south of Lake Balaton). More or less have swapped 2 and 3 Ukr so 3 Ukr is now driving on Salzburg while 2 Ukr into Carinthia.



Turn losses.



OOB, slowly reducing mine by dispatching formations to the reserve [4].



[1] I was getting a wee bit greedy at this point

[2] These two turns of snow rather than rain made a huge difference to my overall progress, having played the Vistula-Berlin scenario a few times, you'll find the weather in this phase variable. Also worth stressing that heavy rains/mud are not the end of operations – most of the worst effects are mitigating by the good road network.

[3] Which makes the point, that effectively removes every constraint on my mobility (apart from a lack of fuel and supplies). The VVS can fly unhindered, the only issue is a lack of airbases on the 1939 German-Polish border region so have a lot sat back in Eastern Poland.

[4] I really should have run down the VVS more than I did due to the issue above, but sort of like the idea that I could use it (if I could find both airbases and the means to supply them).


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Post #: 188
Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/16/2021 9:22:49 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		17 March 1945

T194

Possibly the most important turn/weather of the game. The spell of clear skies and frozen ground persisted, enabling Soviet armour to cut off Berlin.



As in the last post this matters in lots of ways. The Berlin NSS was already reduced to 30k capacity due to having Soviet formations next to it. That collapses the German economy (the other remaining NSS is Frankfurt), so the only supply they now have is what is left in the individual units and depots.

T195

A return to heavy rain and heavy mud. While this hurts a little the bulk of the effects are mitigated by fighting in regions with a good road network.

2 Blr having defended Moscow in 1941, was responsible for the fall of Berlin in 1945.

1 GA storms NE Berlin



3 GA (possibly the most combat experienced formation in the Red Army) takes the main city.



Which is that all over.



Anyway, some views and extra information.

Hopefully this gives you some idea of how WiTE2 comes together, especially around the really big concepts. For those of you moving from WiTE1 one piece of strong advice – don't try to play this as WiTE1, especially if your game play relies heavily on the various conventions that have emerged in the last 4-5 years.

So the world. Worth noting my allies were worse than useless (the reason has been sorted out in patches since this game was started). Soviet representatives suggest the Allies can establish a presence in Aachen to help with the administration of post-war Germany.



More generally, those two turns of clear skies and frozen ground probably knocked 2 weeks off the war. Without them, my guess is that Berlin would have fallen at the start of April (also even if I never took Berlin I now have the VP for a win at that point in any case).

The final butcher's bill. Remember that men treated as disabled and then returned to action are excluded from those totals so you can add 1 million + to the Soviet totals in terms of serious casualties across the war.



The air was was similarly brutal. Worth noting that my air losses are lower than historical, mainly as I actively tried to build up experience among my pilots by protecting them. In the end I commonly had fighter groups with average experience in the 80s.



The wider OOB. Note how much I've added back to reserve and also sent to the Far East. That can be a useful source of VP if you are still not sure about winning on the ground.



The main formations.



The shifting OOB across the game. As is being discussed in the MP AARs, the speed at which the Soviets can reach and sustain an army of 3 million is critical in 1941.



And to whet your interest in the data that can be found in the game. This chart can be found off the production screen. So a list of my formations using IS2s, if they are at full strength or not and if I have them set to refit. Checking the wider table, I found I had given some KV-1s to the Polish heavy tank regiments.



So hope you found this useful and informative. And that you all enjoy playing WiTE2 when its released.

According to my notes this is the 26th time I have played the GC since I started testing 5 years ago. Clearly some were short, others ended by patches, but that is actually the second time I have completed a full game. Add on 5 tests each of Stalingrad-Berlin and Vistula-Berlin so I think I can say this game has been enjoyable to play from when I first encountered it (so much so that I never bothered to reinstall #1 when I did a major computer migration).

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Post #: 189
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/16/2021 1:01:27 PM   
ranknfile

 

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From: New Orleans
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

...

So hope you found this useful and informative. And that you all enjoy playing WiTE2 when its released....


Both; thanks and well done!

Released?! Da 'ell wid dat, I wants it NOW! .... but I guess I can wait

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Post #: 190
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/16/2021 5:39:40 PM   
Repsol

 

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Status: offline 		Many thanks

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Post #: 191
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/16/2021 5:59:27 PM   
Marco70

 

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Joined: 11/4/2019
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Thank you Loki, very interesting and detailed AAR, the excitement for next week is great, can't wait for it.

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Post #: 192
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/16/2021 6:36:47 PM   
TheFerret

 

Posts: 64
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Status: offline 		Thanks, I've had a great time following along with this AAR!

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Post #: 193
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/16/2021 7:32:02 PM   
Arthurius

 

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Status: offline 		Could you show final Victory Points?

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Post #: 194
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/17/2021 1:10:57 PM   
Harain1

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 5/3/2014
Status: offline 		please tell me the game allows to keep playing (vs AI) after victory screen, doesn't look like it

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Post #: 195
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/17/2021 5:53:44 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Sorry, but no. If you want to play longer you just have to try and avoid triggering the victory conditions.

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Post #: 196
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/19/2021 9:29:03 PM   
markpalm1

 

Posts: 3
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Status: offline 		Are Axis losses in men higher than historical? If so, what could be the reasons?

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Post #: 197
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/19/2021 9:47:27 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: markpalm1

Are Axis losses in men higher than historical? If so, what could be the reasons?


in this game yes, I'd guess at the end the Axis forces pretty much collapsed, retreats became routs etc. Also its a good AI but its an AI, and I think it was less careful at force preservation in the late game than an axis human player would be.

Without digging too deep, I'd say the ratios and totals were pretty close up to 1943 when I started to generally set the operational tempo

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Post #: 198
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/22/2021 1:20:20 AM   
Wild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harain1

please tell me the game allows to keep playing (vs AI) after victory screen, doesn't look like it


It would be nice to be able to keep playing vs. the AI after the victory. It's fun to finish off the AI opponent.

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Post #: 199
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/22/2021 8:12:54 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harain1

please tell me the game allows to keep playing (vs AI) after victory screen, doesn't look like it


It would be nice to be able to keep playing vs. the AI after the victory. It's fun to finish off the AI opponent.


The reality is it would be very boring. When I isolated Berlin (& had already taken Prague and Vienna) that collapses the German economy. No production so their only supply is what is in unit/in depot. So that gives the Soviets the chance to take Berlin even if it is very well defended (& a German player will put more than the AI did). But outside it, its going to be a case of move adjacent to a German unit, hasty attack, it routs (& probably stays routed) or even shatters.

The only constraint becomes how many MP you can squeeze out of the Soviet logistics.

As you may have noted from the reports, over the last few turns I stopped moving units in the south as there was no residual point. I had the VP for an 1 April auto-win so the only remaining issue was whether I won that way or by taking Berlin.

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Post #: 200
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/22/2021 1:04:22 PM   
Kursk1943

 

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From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
Status: offline 		Loki, you are right for sure from the Soviet point of view. But vice versa it is a lot of fun: I really liked chasing the Soviets all the way back to Siberia playing WitE 1. You just had to play around a bit with the editor to make this possible.

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Post #: 201
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/22/2021 1:07:07 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		aye, I'm sure you can easily create a scenario with all the VP rules disabled, so that there is no forced end pt (apart from August 1945 - if I recall you can't go past there)

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Post #: 202
RE: Ending the 1000 year Reich - T195 - 3/23/2021 6:56:15 PM   
John B.


Posts: 3909
Joined: 9/25/2011
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Thanks for the great AAR. I really appreciated the level of detail you gave us as well as the answers to our questions.

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Post #: 203
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