Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Outposts?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> Suggestions and Feedback >> Outposts? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Outposts? - 1/16/2021 12:02:25 PM   
Hyregoth

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 1/6/2011
Status: offline
I cannot believe a game like this has no option for building outposts! I have to leave a unit sitting out by itself and watching it's supply every turn when it would be the simplest thing to build a series of small (upgradable) outposts to guard my frontier? Really? Outposts are one of the most ancient traditions for guarding a kingdoms frontier. Please add them .

Post #: 1
RE: Outposts? - 1/16/2021 12:21:29 PM   
AgentFransis

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 1/10/2021
Status: offline
But you can. Build a new asset and click the create new zone checkbox. Or click create new zone on an existing asset.

(in reply to Hyregoth)
Post #: 2
RE: Outposts? - 1/16/2021 3:33:04 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AgentFransis

But you can. Build a new asset and click the create new zone checkbox. Or click create new zone on an existing asset.

Those do not defend the terrain. At all. Without wich, those "outposts" are useless.

(in reply to AgentFransis)
Post #: 3
RE: Outposts? - 1/16/2021 3:34:29 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
You are not the first to be annoyed by the lack of (manned) Fortifications:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4827953
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4843059

No answer from Vic if he might add them or when. Until he does, I guess the 500 Indipendant MG Brigade is the closest thing we got for this.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 4
RE: Outposts? - 1/16/2021 5:24:49 PM   
redrum68

 

Posts: 1202
Joined: 11/26/2017
Status: offline
Yeah, it would be nice to be able to build some form of outposts/fortifications/bunkers/etc. Eventually you can build automated turrets but really need something early game.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 5
RE: Outposts? - 1/16/2021 5:57:01 PM   
springel


Posts: 363
Joined: 1/2/2005
From: Groningen, NL
Status: offline
A static defence covering 200 km isn't a minor asset.

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 6
RE: Outposts? - 1/16/2021 6:26:44 PM   
AgentFransis

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 1/10/2021
Status: offline
Cities are outposts. They provide logistics for (ideally mobile) forces patrolling the border and responding to incursions. That's how the ancients and everyone else did it.

Still it would be nice to have the option of building actual fortifications.

(in reply to springel)
Post #: 7
RE: Outposts? - 1/16/2021 9:33:06 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: springel

A static defence covering 200 km isn't a minor asset.

It does not need to cover every square Kilometer with a wall or something. It just needs to be enough that you know of a army of hundreds to thousands entering and maybe offering some resistance.

The Roman Limes Germanicus covered 550km (3 Hexes).
Overall Rome had a 5000 km Land Border (25 Hexes). And I never heard of them not knowing someone had invaded, so there was enough surveilance.

The inner german border covered ~1400km (7 Hexes).

(in reply to springel)
Post #: 8
RE: Outposts? - 1/17/2021 9:27:29 AM   
stryc

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 7/30/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: springel
A static defence covering 200 km isn't a minor asset.

By that same logic settlements cover the same area - which they clearly don't.

---

I have mused at the notion of being able to drop static fortifications, and I suspect that one reason why the player can't drop them down is because the AI wouldn't be able to do the same half-way competently.

The AI dropping down objects on resources is 'relatively' simple as the hex has already been identified by the presence of said resource; however, putting down fortifications requires the AI to identify a hex by some form of regional assessment routine, and that's a lot harder to do well. (And is, I suspect, one of the major reasons why we never see the AI start new settlements. Or at least, I've never seen the AI do this.)

Perhaps if the AI can't be made to do it then it constitutes too much of an advantage for only the player to be able to, and that might be why Vic hasn't commented on the subject thus far.

(in reply to springel)
Post #: 9
RE: Outposts? - 1/17/2021 10:13:00 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps if the AI can't be made to do it then it constitutes too much of an advantage for only the player to be able to, and that might be why Vic hasn't commented on the subject thus far.

Vics solution for roads was to give the AI the option to build dirt-roads for free. The same could be applied to outposts that defend a single hex.

(in reply to stryc)
Post #: 10
RE: Outposts? - 1/17/2021 4:02:25 PM   
beyondwudge

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline
My two cents is this,

The supply base allows for mobile units to protect terrain far beyond the city's working limit. Mobile units often can be very strong on the defence, especially when they have some decent entrenchment. I think you can achieve the effect of an output by using a supply base to extend your logistics out and then a powerful defensive unit placed in the hex you want to hold.

I'll admit, I did look for a 'fortification' asset or the ability to 'fortify' a hex on my units before I started building lots of machine gun infantry to wall off aggressors. But lets be honest, it's probably far more realistic to have troops with high entrenchment than to, as was pointed out above, try to claim that a fort could meaningfully block enemy movement for a 200km by 200km hex. I think you'd need mobile forces or some very serious long range firepower with sensors for it to make sense.

Yes, when you are just looking at hexes why not 'press F' like in another 4X game and get yours '50% defense bonus' but I think it would clash with the military sim part of the game. Don't get me wrong, if later tech let you build an giant immobile artillery piece or, even at some early point, you could build a hex asset that provided entrenchment, that is fine. However, I just think that the feature should be handled with some care.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 11
RE: Outposts? - 1/17/2021 4:26:53 PM   
redrum68

 

Posts: 1202
Joined: 11/26/2017
Status: offline
I think it would just be nice to see an alternative to early MG spam to hold borders.

(in reply to beyondwudge)
Post #: 12
RE: Outposts? - 1/17/2021 4:33:06 PM   
Akrakorn

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 10/19/2020
Status: offline
A tech that allows players to "fortify" a hex by changing its type would be useful to make cities that are surrounded by grass and plains more defensible by infantry. Entrenchment in these hexes can only reach 50 or 75 compared to the 200 or so of heavy forests/mountains, making vehicles dominate these sorts of terrains. A way to convert resources into better fortifications for your infantry would be nice.

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 13
RE: Outposts? - 1/18/2021 5:00:46 AM   
beyondwudge

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline
I think there is a clash between two paradigms here. By paradigm, I mean the ideas that are deemed important and should be revolved around by the different parts of the game.

One paradigm is of choice, customisation and personal preference. I can share an example I encountered just now. The animated emoticons on the left hand side of this 'fast-reply' GUI, at the bottom of the page as opposed to the separate post reply window, were distracting me. This is because I am on holidays and enjoying a relaxed day. I was irritated by the animation so I remembered that Vivaldi browser has an option to quickly disable looping animations. I found it (after some clicking on the status and address bars) and turned the animations off. I felt so relieved. I could now focus on my words, on how I might be read and understood by others, not on a cheap outlet for my emotions.

However, I then realised I could turn the emoticons off entirely. I just did so. I am even more relieved. Their bright colours were drawing my eyes to them, being recognised by my peripheral vision, causing me to find it difficult to just rest the centre of my vision on the word I was typing.

But, how extreme should I get about this? It is clear that I am tired and perhaps writing a structured response to a set of people, with a very vague constraint on their type and number, is not what I should do when I am feeling this way. The browser lets me turn the emoticons off. That power is making this so much more pleasant (I just put the zoom to about 180% on 1920x1080 screen as well). It is tangibly easier to maintain my focus and keep track of what I have written so far and what I am about to write, which I hope, makes it easier for you to read and understand as well.

Nevertheless, I can see the white blocks on the left hand side of my screen still. I notice them. Should I find a way to edit the page and remove them entirely? At this point I might as well open up a word processor and type my reply in an entirely separate application. If I do that then I have no need to change this forum page, no need for the power the browser has provided and no need for all that effort to make it possible for the images to be selectively disabled.

A small change on my part and the problem is solved. It might not be my preference, or choice, or desire but it is good enough for the purpose. Why would I make all of these other people work hard to fix an issue that I can fix myself?

This leads to the second paradigm: one about solving problems and creating clever solutions.

This game generates problems for you to solve. It is core to the game. This is why information is scattered across the UI and ‘hidden’ away in subordinate reports or within some kind of tool, like the various logistic view tools. Often it is simple to do an action in concept, but hard to do it with the game’s user-interface.

The difficulty can come simply from the breadth of options, toggles and sub-windows involved -- taxing your memory and endurance. It can also come from how narrow the solution must be given with tools that are rather blunt or limited -- you want to send just enough logistic points to an asset in the early game but the traffic signals don’t offer the correct blocking percentage.

The difficulty can also come from a lack of information. In a contrived way, the fact the admin level calculation doesn’t follow the stated formula caused me to have to experiment in order to fulfil a faction request for more admin level. That is a kind of difficulty, that creates a problem to be solved, that could be considered gameplay too. Many much older games were riddled with this sort of unintended gameplay.

The clash between these two paradigms here is simple. The first paradigm of preference-first would like a simple, signposted, fit-to-task solution to the problem of defending a hex or holding a contested border. The second paradigm of solving-problems wants the player to play with the system and observe that small MG units can easily create a front-line that will do the task.

The first paradigm would like to be able to reformat the game world so that any hex they found a city in can be surrounded by good hexes for defense (in this case with high max entrenchment values). The second paradigm would want the player to observe that the hexes contribute to the defense of a city and to be careful about where they place their cities, even determining that frontier cities should be put where the hexes have high entrenchment while inner core cities should be put where the agriculture, mining and city spread is most suitable.

You see, if the first paradigm of player choice and preference is always followed then many of the problems the game gives the player are removed or made trivial. The problems aren’t problems anymore and the game becomes more an activity to complete than a challenge. If the problem-solving paradigm is followed too strongly then the game becomes a chore and unengaging on an emotional level. There are many feelings that get squashed by the sheer labour of trying to make even a basic game concept actually work. The logistics system can be an example of this unless you dedicate a lot more than you might want of your asset budget to pumping trucks and trains in every direction.

In a clash like this, sometimes the game can’t be changed to suit everyone. There are veteran war simulator players who find the problem-solving component easy and can stay emotional about the game despite the unintuitive solutions the game requires. On the other hand, there are young players who can’t make the leap and stay engaged when the answer is “put mobile troops into a static role.” They don’t have the maturity to handle the disjoint between the two categories.

(For reference, I have attached two images showing what I did to the fast reply emoticons and then what kind of word processor I switched to for writing the rest of the reply.)




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by beyondwudge -- 1/18/2021 5:10:26 AM >

(in reply to Akrakorn)
Post #: 14
RE: Outposts? - 1/18/2021 5:03:10 AM   
beyondwudge

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline
- Due to the one image per post limit.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by beyondwudge -- 1/18/2021 5:08:39 AM >

(in reply to beyondwudge)
Post #: 15
RE: Outposts? - 1/18/2021 10:11:27 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

The supply base allows for mobile units to protect terrain far beyond the city's working limit. Mobile units often can be very strong on the defence, especially when they have some decent entrenchment. I think you can achieve the effect of an output by using a supply base to extend your logistics out and then a powerful defensive unit placed in the hex you want to hold.

The thing is that mobile units have to have exatra costs, as they are mobile.
They cost PP to raise.
The need you to through recruitment for manpower for replacemens and the like.

A purely defensive force is hindered by those expenses. And would not need those expenses, as it can be largely static.

I do not think anyone here is asking for a border protection with the power of hte Marginot line. But even 100 guards per hex can be a 1-turn slowdown of the enemy advanced, giving you more time to redeploy or raise defensive mobile forces.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/18/2021 10:12:24 AM >

(in reply to beyondwudge)
Post #: 16
RE: Outposts? - 1/18/2021 11:31:43 AM   
beyondwudge

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline
Zgrssd,

For a start, men sitting in garrison or men sitting in a fort I doubt would have any meaningful difference in supply requirements. For instance, most turns they would be eating about the same. They would both require ammunition. They would both require replacements after combat. There are no 'magical soldiers' that man bunkers and gun emplacements which differ in any major way from the men who walk around and go on patrol. In fact, the need for these troops to still engage in patrols (or else they'd exert almost no zone-of-control or recon points for that 200km x 200km hex) makes it mandatory that they aren't some kind of useless conscript. At best you could argue for allowing militia to produce units for this task (in fact, you just can use militia and let them supply themselves I think).

Forts wouldn't really differ from units and would probably be best represented by a unit, such as a pillbox capable of only strategic movement (like the GR one automated turret). This is because within the game's internal logic the fort would require some kind of person to operate them. This person would be either a worker (for a public asset), a population (for a private asset) or presumably a recruit for the fort as workers and population cannot fight. When recruits are used in this game they cost political points and are a one-time allocation, such as to a military unit. Therefore, it would be likely that recruits would be spent to make a fort and that those recruits would need food and supplies (as they already do) on a turn by turn basis. If it was an asset, it would draw even more logistic points than I think most infantry units of a reasonable size would, being 50 for private and 100 for public I think.

At this point, there is not terribly much difference between creating a unit and placing it in the hex and in creating a fort. In fact, the unit would use less resources and logistics most of the time and could be swapped out for something stronger, could be moved to a superior position, could suddenly go on the attack and grab territory or be put on guard mode as to avoid being detected by the 'next unit' hot key and so forth. In fact, it being a unit means that questions about ammunition usage and other requirements are already answered and there isn't an arbitrary limitation on the kinds of weapons or abilities the garrison / guard / pillbox style unit might have.

All things considered, if you could just put a pillbox class of unit into the game with all the model design choices you'd expect and produce that. Militia could also make them and non-player factions would stick them on the ends of their roads, in their cities or with a bit of training at the end of road networks designed to hold a frontier. It would already have most of its questions answered for it and to be blunt, be more flexible and useful than building an asset or adding in an entirely new class of building. Of course, I did want to build a fort too but it sounds like a lot of work for a very limited gain.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 17
RE: Outposts? - 1/18/2021 12:06:01 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

For a start, men sitting in garrison or men sitting in a fort I doubt would have any meaningful difference in supply requirements. For instance, most turns they would be eating about the same. They would both require ammunition. They would both require replacements after combat. There are no 'magical soldiers' that man bunkers and gun emplacements which differ in any major way from the men who walk around and go on patrol. In fact, the need for these troops to still engage in patrols (or else they'd exert almost no zone-of-control or recon points for that 200km x 200km hex) makes it mandatory that they aren't some kind of useless conscript. At best you could argue for allowing militia to produce units for this task (in fact, you just can use militia and let them supply themselves I think).

They could not cost PP to raise/place.
They can be hired as a worker or even private worker, making them much cheaper then going all the way through recruitment and not taking them out of hte population (so they can still give growth).

When they do not fight, they do not need ammunition. A bit of surveilance gear can replace a lot of patroling - remember, they only need to be able to detect troops in the range of 10's of vehicles or 100's of soldiers. Indeed if they can miss the odd band of thieves and small groups of slavers, that really helps with some events.

For a Mobile force, none of those things would be viable things. But for a Garission those are entirely acceptable caveats/cheapenings.

(in reply to beyondwudge)
Post #: 18
RE: Outposts? - 1/19/2021 7:03:53 AM   
beyondwudge

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline
Zgrssd,

I haven't encountered the economic problem you are describing. I can't comment on this issue because, well, I generally have more than enough to supply a wall of machine gun infantry on whatever hostile fronts I have. Obviously, I'm using plea of friendship to befriend many of my potential opponents, reducing the frontage I need to hold considerably. However, I think I could literally encircle my entire territory with machine gunners and still be in the black.

This might be because I'm playing on an Earth-like planet. Perhaps the economics on a desert or death planet might be more limited. Perhaps it would be a good idea for the people who are talking about this to share what kinds of planets, conditions and economics (shortages and surpluses) they are encountering in their games before we continue the discussion. The alternative is we just start shouting at each other "yes it is!" "no it isn't!" and that is rather unhelpful to Vic.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 19
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> Suggestions and Feedback >> Outposts? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.766