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Experience gain without combat

 
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Experience gain without combat - 1/21/2021 8:19:53 PM   
Will952

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 9/29/2018
Status: offline 		All power to my erstwhile opponent for putting this tactic to widespread and effective use, however it rather rubbed me the wrong way.

It seems that fighters and bombers (this probably extends to carriers) can target empty towns/cities and, in the case of the fighters doing nothing but scouting the area, build up regular and reliable experience.

In the case of the USSR, with its initially feeble air force with little to do, but plenty of Finnish tundra to mess around in, this lets them build up to strength 12/13 over the course of not very long. Plus of course any attached HQ, which similarly benefits.

Is this intentional? And if so - am I just bitter at my loss or is it an issue?

And on a related topic (but not wishing to spam the forum..) I know there was some previous discussion about removing XP gain from ships hitting unoccupied settlements etc - any word on this becoming a thing? For the same reason as above, it is gamey and frustrating to fight strength 12 battleships who's only combat experience has been teeing off on the farmers in Brittany...
More maddening is that even naval units which do not damage to those settlements (i.e. destroyers) still gain experience from firing at settlements fruitlessly!
Post #: 1
RE: Experience gain without combat - 1/22/2021 2:03:11 AM   
mdsmall

 

Posts: 461
Joined: 4/28/2020
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline 		I use fighters all the time for scouting and reconnaissance - this seems a perfectly legitimate use for your planes. However, it does seem unfair that they should build up experience points by doing so. A reasonable fix would be to only give units experience points if they had engaged in combat and thus risked taking casualties.

(in reply to Will952)
Post #: 2
RE: Experience gain without combat - 1/22/2021 1:39:27 PM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		Do the aircraft not take losses at all while doing this?

As to experience gains from shore bombardments, they were reduced to the minimum possible a few months ago, so I'm not sure if this is still something of concern or not.

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Post #: 3
RE: Experience gain without combat - 1/22/2021 4:36:07 PM   
mdsmall

 

Posts: 461
Joined: 4/28/2020
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
quote:

Do the aircraft not take losses at all while doing this?


When I use fighters for reconnaissance, I have learned to have them target a terrain hex next to an urban resource because if they try to spot an urban hex directly, there will automatically be a combat (even if the hex has no AA capacity) that could cost a strength point. I do the same thing at sea, by having planes targeting ocean hexes for spotting purposes. I have never checked to see if they gain experience by doing this, since this has not been my purpose in using them this way. But if they can gain experience without any risk this way, players will exploit this feature. I agree with Will952 that this should be fixed.

I think the situation is slightly different with ships as I don't believe they can bombard unoccupied, non-resource hexes. So even if they are "bombarding for experience" they still run a degree of risk of losing a strength point. You already fixed ships ability to spot inland in an early patch, so they can't be used for reconnaissance on land the way that planes can.

(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 4
RE: Experience gain without combat - 1/22/2021 5:37:58 PM   
Gilber


Posts: 234
Joined: 6/13/2018
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline
quote:

All power to my erstwhile opponent for putting this tactic to widespread and effective use, however it rather rubbed me the wrong way.

It seems that fighters and bombers (this probably extends to carriers) can target empty towns/cities and, in the case of the fighters doing nothing but scouting the area, build up regular and reliable experience.

In the case of the USSR, with its initially feeble air force with little to do, but plenty of Finnish tundra to mess around in, this lets them build up to strength 12/13 over the course of not very long. Plus of course any attached HQ, which similarly benefits.

Is this intentional? And if so - am I just bitter at my loss or is it an issue?

And on a related topic (but not wishing to spam the forum..) I know there was some previous discussion about removing XP gain from ships hitting unoccupied settlements etc - any word on this becoming a thing? For the same reason as above, it is gamey and frustrating to fight strength 12 battleships who's only combat experience has been teeing off on the farmers in Brittany...
More maddening is that even naval units which do not damage to those settlements (i.e. destroyers) still gain experience from firing at settlements fruitlessly!


as I was the opposite player to Will952 I take the liberty of commenting.
I am not sure I understand.
when an air unit attacks a resource there is necessarily combat and when there is combat there is a potential loss (even when the expected losses are announced at 0).
I understand that it is always more pleasant to win than to lose but a good game with inventive strategies is always interesting and I think I can say that it was the case on both sides.
I enjoyed the game with WIll952 very much even if it made me suffer with its very offensive play.



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(in reply to mdsmall)
Post #: 5
RE: Experience gain without combat - 1/22/2021 5:59:50 PM   
Will952

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 9/29/2018
Status: offline 		It was a good game Gilber, and this is no criticism of you - you are only using the game mechanics to the best of your advantage, as I'd expect anyone to do in a competitive game.

But don't you think it's a bit strange that units can gain combat without being in combat? I appreciate there is the potential for loss even when expected losses are 0, but how often did you actually take those losses?

Certainly when I have hotseated this to test, my aerial units took no losses when bombing and recon flying a town for 5-6 turns in a row. They did however rack up a good pip and a bit of experience.

The shore bombardments I think are still a concern - even though the XP gain may be small now, given there is not much for the Allied surface navy to do for a good ~2 years of the game, that's still plenty of time to build up unrealistic levels of experience.

(in reply to Gilber)
Post #: 6
RE: Experience gain without combat - 1/22/2021 9:33:25 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

Posts: 5199
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		Units should only gain experience from combat, if there is a reproducible example that shows otherwise please let us know and I'd be happy to take a look and make any corrections as needed.

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(in reply to Will952)
Post #: 7
RE: Experience gain without combat - 1/24/2021 4:47:01 PM   
Will952

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 9/29/2018
Status: offline 		Fighters targeting empty towns grants experience. Any attached HQs also build up experience as a result.

As do all non-Battleship surface vessels against ports and settlements - even though their attack rating is 0.

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 8
RE: Experience gain without combat - 1/24/2021 7:01:44 PM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline 		Since we are on the subject. Should capital ships be able to attack subs to reduce supply and gain experience? My vote is no.

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Post #: 9
RE: Experience gain without combat - 1/24/2021 9:30:24 PM   
Dorky8

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 10/31/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Since we are on the subject. Should capital ships be able to attack subs to reduce supply and gain experience? My vote is no.



I vote yes subs are still too strong

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 10
RE: Experience gain without combat - 1/25/2021 12:30:20 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Since we are on the subject. Should capital ships be able to attack subs to reduce supply and gain experience? My vote is no.



I vote yes subs are still too strong


Try the WW1 game and you will get what you want

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Post #: 11
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