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RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events System

 
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RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 3/15/2021 7:26:24 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

You get a direct warning about 5 turns in advance when the unit status shows as 'withdraw' (& can be identified as such using one of the map modes) but thats just to advise you that the unit will go at some stage soon


Does the 6th Army remains in the game if they are not lost at Stalingrad?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 31
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 3/15/2021 8:25:57 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

You get a direct warning about 5 turns in advance when the unit status shows as 'withdraw' (& can be identified as such using one of the map modes) but thats just to advise you that the unit will go at some stage soon


Does the 6th Army remains in the game if they are not lost at Stalingrad?


the formations that were refitted and that returned to the Soviet front are, the ones that refitted and remained in France are treated as transfers.

if you opt for full theatre control, you can over-ride this, but that has the cost of lost VP (lack of forces in the West) and, even worse, more rapid advances by the Western Allies

_____________________________


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Post #: 32
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 3/15/2021 10:40:07 PM   
juv95hrn

 

Posts: 242
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		What would be the effect of a player of Germany, moving more mobile forces to the East, replacing them with "low" quality garrisons from the Ostheer? Would Germany be able to recreate the unstoppable panzerballs of WITE1 again? (maybe a bit more spread out due to logistical constraints but still unbalancing the game).

Also in WITE1 players would come up with tactics of wasting units that were to be withdrawn, while preserving the ones who would not be. What are the implications in regards to Theatre boxes in this aspect?

As excited as I am to the war opening up into more theatres of war, I foresee a multitude of potential semi-exploits or strategies unbalancing any player-vs-player engagement.

Yes, you can play with historical reinforcement schedules. This post is not about that.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 33
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 3/15/2021 10:47:22 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn

What would be the effect of a player of Germany, moving more mobile forces to the East, replacing them with "low" quality garrisons from the Ostheer? Would Germany be able to recreate the unstoppable panzerballs of WITE1 again? (maybe a bit more spread out due to logistical constraints but still unbalancing the game).

Also in WITE1 players would come up with tactics of wasting units that were to be withdrawn, while preserving the ones who would not be. What are the implications in regards to Theatre boxes in this aspect?

As excited as I am to the war opening up into more theatres of war, I foresee a multitude of potential semi-exploits or strategies unbalancing any player-vs-player engagement.

Yes, you can play with historical reinforcement schedules. This post is not about that.


what we've seen in testing:

a) you cripple your logistics, the opening can be dramatic with the swaps of armour etc but somehow at the end of a stretched logistic chain you have to supply them come the end of August. Also, its not easy to replace, you can't voluntarily pull a Theatre < 90% of its needs, and replacing a Pzr division with second rate stuff is not that easy

b) pointless, they are needed where they are going for the Theatre numbers, if they are badly under-strength they will refit in theatre, you can shed VP and possibly see the Allies advance and still have to find the missing assets

c) I'm sure there are, but the system has a lot of trade-offs and balances

More generally, put too much armour at the end of one of your logistics chain (either side) and all it will do is strangle itself. This is not the WiTE1 binary system where merely having a rail line solves a lot of your problems.

_____________________________


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Post #: 34
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 3/16/2021 12:11:41 AM   
TheFerret

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 3/9/2021
Status: offline 		Does the AI take advantage of enhanced TB control if it's on?

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 35
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 3/16/2021 2:18:51 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 514
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

You get a direct warning about 5 turns in advance when the unit status shows as 'withdraw' (& can be identified as such using one of the map modes) but thats just to advise you that the unit will go at some stage soon


Does the 6th Army remains in the game if they are not lost at Stalingrad?


the formations that were refitted and that returned to the Soviet front are, the ones that refitted and remained in France are treated as transfers.

if you opt for full theatre control, you can over-ride this, but that has the cost of lost VP (lack of forces in the West) and, even worse, more rapid advances by the Western Allies


Sorry loki, this is still a bit unclear to me. Say if you avoid the historical defeat at Stalingrad and reach the relevant date with 6A fully intact where do those divisions go?

My guess from what you are saying would be that the historically destroyed divisions in all cases get disbanded, their elements go back to the pool to potentially be sent elsewhere and the divisions themselves show up later as 'shell' reinforcements. Whereas the divisions that remained intact enough to be transferred to France will be transferred there under 'default' TB rules and (assuming they are much stronger than their historical equivalents) will slow down Allied progress in France in 44 compared to history. If you have full TB control and a much stronger set of 'surviving' 6A divisions than was the historical case you could potentially keep other theatres at 'par' in terms of historical force commitment and be left with 'spare' divisions to play with in the East?

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 36
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 3/16/2021 8:36:03 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		no, what I'm saying is that historically a number of the 6 Army formations were left in France post-refit due to increased fears of an invasion of France.

the game models that by a withdrawal to the Western Theatre. if they go intact, that is a huge gain to the axis player overall as the assets used for their historical rebuild are then available for other formations.

Those that were refitted post-Stalingrad and returned to the Soviet front are simply never removed in the game, so if you lose them somewhere its up to you to decide to refit or not.

_____________________________


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Post #: 37
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 3/16/2021 8:59:09 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 514
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline 		Gotcha

Thanks loki

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 38
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 3/16/2021 11:44:05 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFerret

Does the AI take advantage of enhanced TB control if it's on?


afaik, no

with it on, you can keep all the scripted moves, you have to manually cancel one to stop it (but since a given unit may move between theatres many time, if you do this once you cancel the rest of the chain).

I don't think the AI is subtle enough to walk the tight-rope this option opens up.

I realise most players will want to use it (at least once) but for myself, I really wouldn't. There are all sorts of chains of on map/off map that you put at risk, get the allocation to a Theatre wrong and you can be shedding 1-2 VP a turn (remember the best bonus for an early city capture is +6) and if it involves the Western Allies the axis player can find themselves shedding both VP and seeing a faster advance in the West. That is not just geographical, it affects how quickly the west becomes a serious drain on your equipment and manpower pools.

so picking up on the post above. the only 'spare' axis Pzr/Mot formations worth having in the east in 1941 are in N Africa. So lets say you run down the N Africa theatre and manage to extract them. You will probably lose a VP every other turn as a result (so those divisions had better deliver big time vs the Soviets), if the Allies get to Sicily earlier (& they will), that sets in train the events that ultimately lead to the invasion of France. With France in play, the theatre boxes cease to be a marginal hit on your assets and starts to really eat into what you have available. Do you really want to start that earlier?

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Post #: 39
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 3/16/2021 12:46:29 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

no, what I'm saying is that historically a number of the 6 Army formations were left in France post-refit due to increased fears of an invasion of France.

the game models that by a withdrawal to the Western Theatre. if they go intact, that is a huge gain to the axis player overall as the assets used for their historical rebuild are then available for other formations.

Those that were refitted post-Stalingrad and returned to the Soviet front are simply never removed in the game, so if you lose them somewhere its up to you to decide to refit or not.


Thanks, understood.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 40
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 4/4/2021 2:12:05 AM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

no, what I'm saying is that historically a number of the 6 Army formations were left in France post-refit due to increased fears of an invasion of France.

the game models that by a withdrawal to the Western Theatre. if they go intact, that is a huge gain to the axis player overall as the assets used for their historical rebuild are then available for other formations.

Those that were refitted post-Stalingrad and returned to the Soviet front are simply never removed in the game, so if you lose them somewhere its up to you to decide to refit or not.


This was always something that annoyed me about East Front games - and I mean ALL East Front games I have ever played - that units are withdrawn according to their historical schedule, but not all units were pulled back to garrison other locations, more than a few were withdrawn because they were so heavily damaged they were no longer combat viable. Some underwent refit in the process - upgrading to panzer units for example - and others were simply rebuilt before being returned to the front. In some cases they would later be returned, and in others they would be sent to another front while they underwent rest and replenishment, and another unit was sent to replace them in the Soviet Union. The obvious problem in a game is if you have a unit that isn't shot to hell but is suddenly pulled off the line you have a hole - even if you know it is coming the Germans rarely had enough units to spare to fill too many random holes - and on the other hand a unit that could do with refit is left in place.

So, if I understand what is said here, this is not completely the case here. If a unit was pulled historically and ended up being sent to another front, that still happens even if the reason they were historically withdrawn was because they were shot up, but they still ended up in garrison somewhere else so that is still performed, but as you point out, if a healthy unit is withdrawn it ends up boosting the garrison in the other theatre more than was done historically, which has other benefits. On the other hand units that were only withdrawn for refit and then returned are not actually withdrawn in WitE2, it is up to the player to pull back damaged units for refit, correct?

What about upgrades, if a unit was upgraded (Großdeutschland for example was upgraded several times) are they still withdrawn for that, or is that also handled in theatre? So for example if its not a good time you can delay the upgrade until later?

Thanks.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 41
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 4/4/2021 10:08:32 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

...
So, if I understand what is said here, this is not completely the case here. If a unit was pulled historically and ended up being sent to another front, that still happens even if the reason they were historically withdrawn was because they were shot up, but they still ended up in garrison somewhere else so that is still performed, but as you point out, if a healthy unit is withdrawn it ends up boosting the garrison in the other theatre more than was done historically, which has other benefits. On the other hand units that were only withdrawn for refit and then returned are not actually withdrawn in WitE2, it is up to the player to pull back damaged units for refit, correct?

What about upgrades, if a unit was upgraded (Großdeutschland for example was upgraded several times) are they still withdrawn for that, or is that also handled in theatre? So for example if its not a good time you can delay the upgrade until later?

Thanks.


yes, you are right, if xxx ID went to France post Stalingrad to refit and stayed in the West, then the game has it move to France. If it goes intact, then that is no demand on your resources to refit and you may end exceeding the Theatre garrison requirements (so some extra VP/AP, maybe even delay the Allies)

I think the upgrades vary a bit. From observation, some times you lose a unit for a while when it changed roles but others happen while on the map

GD seems to alter in situ, I *think* some of the SS Mot disappeaar for a while then come back as PzrGr


< Message edited by loki100 -- 4/4/2021 10:09:41 AM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 4/5/2021 3:07:15 AM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

yes, you are right, if xxx ID went to France post Stalingrad to refit and stayed in the West, then the game has it move to France. If it goes intact, then that is no demand on your resources to refit and you may end exceeding the Theatre garrison requirements (so some extra VP/AP, maybe even delay the Allies)

I think the upgrades vary a bit. From observation, some times you lose a unit for a while when it changed roles but others happen while on the map

GD seems to alter in situ, I *think* some of the SS Mot disappeaar for a while then come back as PzrGr



Cool, thanks for the info.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 43
RE: Showcasing WitE2 #4 - Theatre Boxes & the Events Sy... - 4/16/2021 7:59:35 AM   
Top(W.)Model


Posts: 48
Joined: 7/17/2020
Status: offline 		I have some issues/questions regarding the theatre box system, so I figured I may as well make a post about it here.
I've been looking in the editor for a list of soviet « patrol » aircrafts since I've noticed that my northern theater was always under the 90% strength threshold in the naval sub-section. Alas, it turns out that such aircrafts are in low supply for the soviets, and it doesn't seem possible to make naval-only air groups (those using torpedoes-equipped IL-2s or B-20s, for example) use these «patrol» aircrafts, even when they are available in the pool.

Since the player is not given any tools allowing him/her to correct this shortage, I'm wondering about the relevance of tracking this aircraft type in the theater box (for the soviet side, of course; Axis got plenty of patrol-type aircrafts).

This brings up the fact that it is quite unclear (to me, at least) how the game rates the units of a given TB, especially since CV is not relevant to air combat and therefore can't be used to assess air groups value or strength.

For instance, in my current game I am getting some of the «patrol» points in the naval category of the Northern Front TB, yet none of the air groups in this theater box, or anywhere else in the game for that matter, is currently using such aircrafts.

TLDR: IMO, the info/numbers given in the theater boxes screens could use a bit of re-organisation (or at least some re-wording), especially since the manual doesn't contain much information on this precise topic.

(in reply to neuromancer)
Post #: 44
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