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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now?

 
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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/9/2021 5:07:32 PM   
Randy Stead


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Thanks for the tip, BB. Yes, I have taken advantage of Port Kembla and Newcastle in just that manner. I think Brisbane has no shipyard in this Guadalcanal scenario; I will confirm when I load my next turn.

Poor Washington... every time I get her into the shipyard along comes another needy, low-damage but needing a shipyard beggar for repair. I figure let them have it and get them on the way again. If I insist on holding the yard only for Washington, she will hog it for the expected 88 days. In that time I can patch up any number of low major damage ships. This game really forces you to set priorities. I can only imagine the nightmare facing me when I first play Dec 41, with all them broken ships at Pearl.

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/9/2021 5:14:48 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

Speaking of fortifications. I have Noumea at 6 of 9 and it will not go any higher. I have red numbers there and the increment toward 7 has been sitting red at 23 % for a long time. Do I need 20,000 supply to get it higher? I think so, but I'm not going to sweat it at this point.


You are wasting supply to build the forts at Noumea any higher. It is out of danger now and has no need of them. Same for other bases in the theatre - do a once-over and turn off forts wherever the enemy will not be attacking - anywhere in OZ for example. Devote the engineer efforts and supply to building the AF or Port, to add to your VP total and to enable operations to proceed at a higher pace.

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/9/2021 5:16:32 PM   
Ambassador

 

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Auckland also has a size 15 Repair Shipyard, while Perth has a size 3 RSY perfect for submarines.

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/9/2021 5:37:42 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Auckland also has a size 15 Repair Shipyard, while Perth has a size 3 RSY perfect for submarines.

But do those show up in the Guadalcanal Scenario?

BTW Randy, I recall being surprised when the Guadalcanal Scenario ended on March 1, 1943. I was misled by the presence of reinforcement ships or LCUs showing for the scenario arriving much later. It's possible the end date was changed in the newest official patch, but checking the scenario end date in the Editor will confirm one way or another. IRL, Guadalcanal was declared secured at the end of Feb. 1943, which is a good reason for the scenario to end there.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/9/2021 6:04:58 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Auckland also has a size 15 Repair Shipyard, while Perth has a size 3 RSY perfect for submarines.

But do those show up in the Guadalcanal Scenario?

I don’t think so, it’s a general remark for the full campaign (do I pass my saving throw ?), but I haven’t played that scenario in a long time. Auckland is due south to Noumea, so the eastern limit of the map would allow, but I don’t think the scenario borders extend sufficiently south.

I don’t believe Melbourne appears either, and it would pay to check Brisbane. I’m not sure there is a RSY in the scenario, but I may be wrong.

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/9/2021 6:36:49 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

For practice, recon the next islands in the chain to see where the next targets are. You want to bypass strongly held bases. You might be able to capture empty bases.


Already there, Joe. I have determined that the little island next to Tossafaronga is empty, as is the nearest hex on that long skinny island that stretches off to the NW.

Had a huge pile of action all in one turn. I didn't plan it quite that closely, but it was serendipitous in the way it worked, out, sorta...

I obliterated any remnants of enemy on the island of Guadalcanal with a final attack on the remnants that came in at several hundred to one. At the same time I had a large number of engineers and supplies coming in over the beach and what small tonnage could fit into that little port at Tossa which is now being rapidly expanded to a size 3 port, then the airfield will be expanded to 3. I am going to land on that island at the south end then move north overland. Just as the LCU reaches the adjacent hex next to the base at the top end I plan to use my LCIs to land supplies and some reinforcements as I believe I will have to fight for the base.

Looks like I am slowly moving up the chain, building bases and getting my air cover closer to Shortlands and Rabaul.

On New Guinea at Buna I brought up a powerful bombardment fleet of two BBs, several cruisers and DDs. I had reconned Buna for a while and had high DL. I kept bombarding the base and the LCUs there have been without supply for quite some time. I hit them with air strikes and one deliberate attack the next turn after the fleet bombardment and the structure just collapsed. I made quite a mess of the place so my engineers will be busy for a while. Anticipating its capture I have been moving engineers and reinforcements overland from Port Moresby. The Jap LCUs at Buna lost thousands in the battle and I am in hot pursuit. I will give them no rest as they retreat up the peninsula. I may hit them with a nasty surprise by landing a good sized LCU behind them and cut off their retreat, then if that works out I can hop into the size zero hex.

Now some bad news and some good news. The bad first... I got cute with my four carriers. I sent one group of two to follow the bombardment force at distance 0 to give them air cover. They got in and hit Buna hard. The IJN had been launching air strikes from NW of New Britain at range to hit Port Moresby. I detached the two carriers that were with the bombardment force and moved them closer to get within range and set my planes to range 6. The other two carriers were a day behind, as I wished them to cover the rear and possibly hit any supply runs down the Solomons. I should have put all four carriers in the same hex and had a nice size CAP for what came next...

I hit them first, seeing the sinking of CV Hiyo and a CVL. I think I bagged the other two CVLs or terribly mauled them, as there have been no carrier base strikes since the battle. My losses... Wasp got hit with four torpedoes and sank before I could make any attempt to save her. Saratoga hot about 28 systems damage and 50+ flotation. Enterprise got some annoyance damage from a Val's attention.

Saratoga is healing up systems damage in Milne Bay, the closest sanctuary. When her systems damage is down to 0, and if she is still alive, I shall move her to Sydney. Enterprise is on her way to Sydney, in the company of Hornet, which is undamaged. She has less than ten each in systems and flotation.

The surviving air groups from Saratoga and Wasp landed at Milne Bay. Some could not make it so I had some ditchings and a few rescues. I am gathering the strays and moving them down to Sydney for the reunion. The orphaned air groups from Wasp will find new homes on those escort carriers. I may take a few pilots out of the units and put them in reserve, in order to flesh out the refitting units with veterans.

I could have done better and of course this is all a learning experience. But if you do the math, the exchange rate has been well in my favour: one CV for 3 CV, 2 confirmed CVL and 2 probable CVL. I forgot to mention that in those air strikes Kirishima took 10-11 1000 pound bombs, Hiei took a pile, as did some cruisers and a few destroyed DDs. There were a few torpedo hits in there as well on various ships, including two annoying hits without booms. Grrr.

The consolation is that my fleet boats with the Mark 14s are now getting more booms and have taken a few Marus down. I hope to see more success for them as 1943 rolls on. I am near the end of the second week of January 1943; the scenario ends in April 1943 from what I have heard. I doubt Saratoga will be operational by then, perhaps just in under the wire. Once Enterprise is repaired from her fairly light damage I shall still have two CVs and several CVEs with which to fight, as well as a sizeable surface fleet.

It has all been tremendous fun so far and I have done as well as I have because as the song goes, "I get by with a little help from my friends..."


Next time, have all of your carriers follow them in the same hex but have them stay one hex away from the destination. Not a bad trade but with four CVs you may have been able to keep them all afloat. But the Wasp is always more brittle with the Lexington and Saratoga normally harder to sink.

CVEs are even more brittle . . .

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/9/2021 11:03:30 PM   
Randy Stead


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Yeah, that was my mistake, trying to be cute. I've survived similar or even larger raids when 3-4 CVs are all in the same hex; lots of CAP helping each other out. Concentration of force is a military foundation. As Guerian said, klotzen, nicht kleckern. Hope I spelled that correctly. Wasp is, as the Italians say, fra-jee-lay.

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/13/2021 7:26:51 PM   
Randy Stead


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Wow, just finished the scenario a few minutes ago. I've been grinding it out for day after day in real life time to get it done. Scenario runs from August 6th, 1942 to April 2nd, 1943; don't believe the scenario notes in the briefing section.

Number 1 takeaway from this scenario: you must learn logistics. Supply management was my #1 headache throughout this whole scenario. It was nice to have so many ships, planes and LCUs as the Allied player, but you will not be able to train all of those rookie fliers, accumulate enough political points to do as you please with your LCUs and you will have to watch your fuel supply if you are fond of sending task forces on far flung missions. By the end of the scenario I had a huge fuel stock at Noumea but that was only because I had virtually wiped out the Japanese supply chain. Taking out 3 CVs and 3 CVLs, plus a number of CAs and CLs made the IJN not want to come out to play. Early in the scenario we had a brawl up around Lunga and I got hurt. I lost Wasp when I unwisely divided my carriers into two groups, whereas the IJN kept theirs together. However, over several engagements I whittled them down but not without cost. Enterprise and Saratoga got hit. Enterprise was repaired in good order, but Saratoga, South Dakota and Washington spent the rest of the game in Sydney harbour fighting over dock space at the ship yards. Fortunately the shyness of the IJN meant I did not have to square off with those monsters they had in the game while I was down to one effective carrier for a while.

I made the mistake of sending most of my land units up to Townsville. All they did was sit there eating supplies that had to be sent up from Sydney. All of those air units I had on training just chewed through my supply stockpiles. A couple of turns of bombing with my B-17s and Liberators chewed through 5,000 supply like a plague of locusts. You just can't do it all in spite of having so many planes. If you devote a lot of time to training, that eats supplies, combat eats supply and of course just being alive consumes supply. In spite of the warnings about fuel, it was supply that concerned me the most. Early in the game I made the rookie mistake of hauling a lot of that Sydney stockpile over to Noumea and New Guinea. It got to the point where I was so starved for supply that I had many air units on shutdown. Even that was not enough; as they sat there for turn after turn with zero supply the planes started deteriorating from lack of supply. I ended up shipping almost all of it down to Sydney. I never did quite get the knack of manipulating the supply ticker so I will have to devote more attention to that in future.

Of course, a portion of my problems were self inflicted. I "Rommeled" my logitistics, trying to do too much with a limited supply. Yeah, it was fun but I got a few worry ulcers at times with all of those exclamation marks over my forward bases. Once I took Guadalcanal and Tulagi and shored up Port Moresby I could have just sat on my haunches for the rest of the scenario. That just doesn't suit me. I ended up going up the Solomons, taking several bases as I edged toward Shortlands. I landed on Munda with the intention of building a nice sized base for moving on Shortlands but the game ended before that was accomplished. I was shuttling engineers and SeaBees by the shipload and quickly building it up, but the timer ran out. On New Guinea I took Buna, then moved up the coastline grabbing and building bases and had land units in the Lae hex. After the game was over I was able to see that Lae had zero supply. Rabaul had less than 600, Shortlands was almost zero. A few more months of this and the Allies would have taken it all.

In spite of the frustrations over supply, it was fun and extremely educational from the perspective of being a rookie learning this game. I made key mistakes from which I have learned, I engaged in quite a few land, air and sea battles and learned valuable lessons which will help me be a better player in future. I can only imagine the headache of being the Japanese side in this scenario. The time period covered in this scenario was the early stages of the Allied push back against the Japanese advance. It was a very tough learning experience for the Allies as they were not yet geared up and they were still being tutored by a competent enemy. However, the tragedies they experienced helped them learn what they needed to win a long, grinding war with the hind end of the prodigious war economy which saw most of the gear go to Europe.

I can't say it enough how important it is for new players to play this scenario. And of course, thank you to those of you who encouraged me to play this and helped me along the way.

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/13/2021 7:38:59 PM   
Randy Stead


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Silly rabbit, I forgot the summary:

Decisive Allied victory; 10236 to 1329. Ships lost: Allied 29, IJN 102. Aircraft losses from all causes: Allies 521, Japanese 1103.

As an addendum to my previous post...

I wasted time and resources building smaller bases up, thinking they would help take the strain from my larger bases like Noumea and Townsville. For example, just because I wanted to I built up Koumac, the little dot at the other end of the island from Noumea. I thought it might help to be able to base my search planes the four or five hexes closer towards the Coral Sea area. Really wasn't needed. Likewise with a few of the smaller island bases in the Solomons. By the time I got Thousand Ships Bay built up it wasn't needed as the front had moved north. I also wasted resources on building up Charters Tower, Cairns and Cooktown. Perhaps in real life it might have made sense, but as it worked out in the game they weren't needed. Building up Port Moresby was, on the other hand, a good move, as I was able to base enough fighters there eventually to stem the bomber raids. Toward the end all they sent over were small, unescorted raids. I don't know why there were not more fighters as the game end screen showed plenty of fighters at Rabaul. Perhaps it was a supply management issue.

It did seem a crying pity to have so many squadrons of inexperienced bombers and fighters which spent most of the scenario training and never fighting, and even more tragic, spending a lot of time grounded due to lack of supply. Those six or so small escort carriers I was given sat the whole game in port. I took one out for a cruise to Sydney and back to escort some cripples while my carriers were laid up for repair and that was it. I do believe, though, that all of that gear would be put to use later as the Allied logistics chain got into high gear.

And I was absolutely floored how quickly 60 or so 4-E bombers can gobble up a baseful of supplies. My fellow rookies, do your math once you start sending them out on raids and keep an eye on your supply stocks once they are in the war in earnest. I can't hammer it home enough, logistics is the spine of this game; but of course I am preaching to the choir as far as the experienced players here go.

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/13/2021 8:14:40 PM   
RangerJoe


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I am glad that you enjoyed it. I am sure that you learned a lot.

Now you know what to do when you switch sides and try the Japanese side . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/13/2021 8:36:03 PM   
Ambassador

 

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Congratulations !

Like you say, the first lesson of this scenario is : logistics.
Second and third lessons are : logistics and logistics, too.

Now that you’ve finished, ponder on the amount of supply you’ve received since the beginning of the scenario, the starting one as well as what you’ve received daily from the automatic and production sources. I don’t remember how much you get, between industry and free supplies, but multiply that by 240 (roughly the length of the scenario), and see how much it makes. It’ll look huge, but always remember that you were mostly short of supply, and this is for only one theater of operations - remember that when you plan your supply train for the grand campaign. One of the key aspect of the full campaigns is planning your logistics, and for that you need to know :
- how much supply you produce, and where, and if you need to bring any Fuel or Ressources for that
- how much supply you need for your operations, where you need it, and in which timetable
- the distances your supplies and fuel have to cross, as it tells you how much tonnage you have to devote to supplying a given area to bring enough of both.
For example, I have a note somewhere telling I need to bring 1.745 Fuel, 1600 Ressources and 450 Oil per day to keep the main Australian industry active, and doing that means it produces 5.055 supplies per day. The required Ressources may come from Tasmania and Noumea (it wouldn’t be efficient to bring Ressources from farther away), but Fuel has to come from either the USA or Abadan - and I have notes telling me the San Diego-Tahiti-Sydney route is 192 hexes long (182 if going through Pago Pago instead, Eastern US-Panama-Tahiti-Sydney is 273, Eastern US-Cape Town-Perth is 309, while Abadan-Mombasa-Cape Town-Perth is 255. Thus, I know that 8 T2 Tankers (those with the 14.000 capacity) are enough on the San Diego route (but I need a refueling point on the way), but I’ll have to allocate 14 tankers if doing it from Eastern US through Cape Town. This is the kind of planning that you’ll have to do.

A lot of the toys you receive are not of great use during that scenario, but you’ll have ample time to use them to their full utility during a full campaign. CVE’s are a really important asset, if you know how to use them. The war really evolves for the Allies, a bit less so for the Japanese once the shift to a defensive posture happens.

Regarding the bases, a lot of them are included to provide options for the players. Not all of them are useful every game, in fact a great many of them, in the DEI and in SoPac, are useless most of the time, and you really don’t have to develop them all - in fact, you probably couldn’t, even if playing until ‘46. You have to check them all, to determine which you’ll need, and define your strategy. And if you plan to use a base, you have to consider the level of investment you need to do - for example, if you plan to base Patrols at Koumac to extend the range of your searches, you don’t need any construction, you just need to bring an AV or some AVP/AVD.

Remember too that the AI is not always the brightest opponent. A human player will probably develop the airfields near Lae, to provide a better escort for the bombers. In such a case, Cairns and Cooktown’s usefulness rise exponentially. In fact, they’re already important, as Netties from Rabaul might otherwise attack them, and the LRCAP you can provide on your convoys from Townsville and Port Moresby might not have the range (or if it does, it’ll increase the fatigue). Both bases can also base more ASW planes. So, just because they weren’t useful in this game, doesn’t mean they never are.

What do you plan to do, now ? Embark in a full campaign as the Allies, or try the Guadalcanal scenario from the other side ?

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/13/2021 9:11:13 PM   
Randy Stead


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All good advice; thanks, Ambassador.

As much as it is de rigueur advice to play the Japanese side next, I am thinking of long campaign as Allies. After I take a bit of a rest and do some more reading. I've been playing this game 10-12 hours or more per day the last while and I need a bit of a breather. I confess to feeling a bit intimidated to think that I will have to play China, Britain, Dutch, etc. every turn and fear going down a rabbit hole and not coming out for years. Which I have no doubt many here have felt. On the other hand, I do seem to enjoy a game where you start off on the ropes and have to plan and build up for a great comeback. Many players like doing a Barbarossa style game as the superior force at the beginning, for example, but there's something appealing about having to marshal your forces and resources and then gradually coming back to finally overwhelm the foe. As much as I despise communism and the evils of the Soviet system, it is quite satisfying clawing your way back after a rough start.

I'm intrigued to learn more about the ship repair routines and see how the Americans convert that pile of smoldering scrap metal into a war winning fleet. I confess that I felt inadequate with my repair management in the Guadalcanal scenario. I need to really nail down which ships deal with which types of damage and which tenders you use to keep certain vessels armed and operating. I had some SCs at Sydney that would not reload their "mousetrap" depth charges. I thought I would be alright with Sydney built up to size 9, but turn after turn the entry numbers were red. I also thought I would be able to repair low levels of major flotation damage of less than 5 at Noumea with certain vessels but I was wrong; I had to send smaller vessels like destroyers and LCIs to Sydney for repair. I did something wrong, so it is back to the Ship Repair 101 guide that somebody [Alfred?] so handily put together.

So, instead of rushing off to my next war, I think it best to do some post-battle analysis of my Guadalcanal campaign; what worked, what did not. One thing that really surprised me was how tiny a sliver of land on the map can be a movement corridor. After I expelled the garrison at Buna, the screen said they were retreating to that little red dot next to Lae; is it Wau? I thought I would be a sneaky Round Eye and land an Aussie brigade on the coast to cut them off. I took Salamaua and to my surprise a Japanese LCU suddenly appeared in the hex. WTH did he come from? Then I peered carefully at the screen and there is an ever-so-small sliver of land connecting Lae to Salamaua. I confirmed it by hitting the "W" key and saw the red hexside indicating the hex side from which the enemy LCU entered the hex.

And that is another area in which I need to improve, facility with hex side control. When quite new here I asked why a Chinese LCU in a certain hex could not cross the hex side E to W to enter another enemy occupied hex. Then I realized that hex side control is a very important concept to master. I believe I have a better grasp on it now, but not perfect. This was brought home to me when the LCU I was chasing squirted away from me because I did not have a solid lock on the hex sides. That was a valuable mistake to make and one which I hope not to repeat. I can see this game has tremendous depth to it. This is the first time I have played a hex game without the traditional ZOC [zone of control] concept that has been my milieu for decades of war gaming. In this game you move 'days per hex" not "hexes per day." When I first looked at this game I almost dismissed it out of hand based on this "hoaky" concept but I decided to stick with it. I am glad I did not give in to a first impression.

< Message edited by Randy Stead -- 2/13/2021 9:12:09 PM >

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/13/2021 9:35:40 PM   
Randy Stead


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Sorry, should have posted this earlier; just remembered another area in which I would play it differently next time.

I followed quite closely the opening moves of the YouTube setup of Guadalcanal scenario by "HarPlonked" and upon reflection I would play it differently. Perhaps his advice was more relevant to playing a human opponent, as his reasoning was that due to the points awarded for control of certain bases, the Japanese player is advised to take Port Moresby. He was playing PBEM and thus would have a potentially more challenging foe than AI. He feared his opponent would make an early play for Port Moresby so he had just about every unit in Australia prepare for Port Moresby and shuffled many LCUs up to Townsville, as well as many air units and much of the shipping assets.

He disbanded one infantry brigade equipped with the 1942 squads so that their devices would go into the pool; next turn he had a brigade upgrade their militia squads to 1942 squads, and repeat turn after turn until all militia were upgraded to 1942 squads. He did this because at the initial production rate of about 2 squads per turn it would take about two to three months to accumulate enough squads to upgrade the normal way. I followed his advice and disbanded a brigade. As it turned out I needn't have bothered, as it takes so long to accumulate the political points necessary to release a brigade of Aussie infantry. I was able to accumulate enough squads the slow but steady way that upon reflection it was a needless disbanding of a brigade. It is tough for the Japanese player, human or AI to take Port Moresby, or am I being precociously naive in saying so? If he tries to take PM overland he will slog his way. Even if he should manage to push the Aussies back down the trail he will have tough supply line over that trail from Buna and then will have to oust the garrison from the base, which is not easy. By the time he might manage to do so the Allied player should have been able to get some reinforcements over the water.

In the end I did not get all of the land units over to New Guinea that I thought I would, and even if I did they would not have been needed in the timespan of this scenario, but of course in real life yes it would have been nice to have three or four divisions. As it was I was able to get into the Lae hex overland. My advice to new players is don't be in a rush to disband units to get quick device upgrades. By the time you have enough political points to get units across to Port Moresby you may well have saved enough squads to do it without disbanding. HarPlonked was in a hurry to get the 1942 squads over to New Guinea. As he is a more experienced player I don't wish to seem to disrespect his advice; it just turned out not to have been necessary in my play of the scenario.

Another important factor which I had to learn the somewhat hard way was to make sure you had the relevant HQs and supply levels for upgrades. As per the YouTube video, I moved all the HQs up to Cooktown, Cairns and Townsville so their radius could reach across the sea to give bonuses to combat on New Guinea. This turned out not to really figure into it for me and it backfired on me as when I need naval support to speed up ship repair in Sydney, my one HQ with a large number of naval support was up in Townsville! Several days, call it a week, to get it packed up, back down the coast and setup shop again in Sydney. If you only have one repair yard in the scenario, you better have your naval support close by. I relocated South Pacific HQ early in the game to Lunga to "speed up" unloading over there. Again, a bit of overkill as at one point I had almost 60K of supply at Lunga, but I needed the HQ and 20K of supply back at Noumea for upgrades. My advice is to really think about your moves of HQs. And of course, when you start off with a "yooge" supply dump, don't treat it as if you had just won the lottery. I felt really stupid when I emptied Sydney and then later ahd to ship supply back so I could perform certain actions.

Right near the end of the scenario I was trying to get the infantry regiments of 1st and 2nd USMC to upgrade to 1943 squads. I had over 200 squads of 1943 in the pool and over 20K of supply at Noumea but they would not upgrade. Then I realized I had South Pacific HQ, their command HQ, at Lunga. I loaded it back on ships and brought it back to Noumea but still no upgrade. I had one unit set to rest, upgrade allowed but the squads did not upgrade. Any ideas why they would not do the device swap? I had only a couple of turns right at the end to try this and suddenly the game ended, so I don't know if the device swap would have eventually occurred. The process seemed to work alright when I did it for the Aussie militia squads.

< Message edited by Randy Stead -- 2/13/2021 9:48:29 PM >

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Post #: 133
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/13/2021 9:46:16 PM   
Randy Stead


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Disregard; I muffed an edit.

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Post #: 134
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/13/2021 11:12:18 PM   
Randy Stead


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Lest any think I am lazy, I consulted the manual and the forum squeeze binder to find the answer. It's all in the manual starting at page 249, "Logistics" and one or two other places. Basically it comes down to requiring surpluses over base requirements, distance of receiving unit from supply source and other factors. I simply posted a quick question because I am so tired after non-stop many-hours sessions in order to get through the scenario to the final turn. I've been up since 02:30 and playing all day and I am so tired that it is now 7:05 and I am getting ready for bed. Taking the manual with me as put-me-to-sleep reading. Every time I reread it, it gets a bit clearer and I realize why things weren't working in my game as I had hoped they would.

Essentially, I borked my logistics and suffered the consequences from violating the process. Instead of feeling angry I am feeling enlightened as I come to understand how it works [or does not work] and it burns into the mind as hard won knowledge. And it will all be very useful when it comes time for me to teach my brother, who got a copy of this game from me at Christmas. That's often how we've done it since we were young teens with our first Avalon Hill board games. I've always been the "bookish" one in my family so it often comes down to "Give Randy the rule book and he will teach us." Yeah, I'm the one who gets called when the computer doesn't work or the audio system needs rewiring, reset the VCR clock [haven't had that one for a long time] and so forth.

It's a Gary Grigsby game; I've come to expect having to dig deep for the gems.

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Post #: 135
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/13/2021 11:13:25 PM   
Randy Stead


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Looks like I fumbled the keyboard again and got that strike through lining. I think RangerJoe told me once before that it has something to do with brackets.

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RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 12:51:40 AM   
Ambassador

 

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Besides the Ship Repair 101, there are also numerous threads on the use of the tenders (AD, AG, AKE, etc). Read them, they’re useful - the threads, but even more so, the ships themselves, whether for rearming purposes, or for repairs. The Guadalcanal scenario, and on a smaller scale the Coral Sea, is really limited on repair possibilities. In the campaign, Sydney is a frontline repair shipyard, you don’t conduct any long term repair - this is what the West Coast is for. You would have sent the carriers and battleships to Pearl, and from there to Seattle, Alameda, or any other of the 11 US or Canadian repair shipyards back there.

You’re right that the full campaign is daunting by its scope, but it’s just a matter of organization. My advice would be as follow:
1) start a no-stress, no-goal, no-pressure campaign. Just let the turns roll, only change few things, try to move some TF and units, to get the feel of the initial invasion. You’ll see how fast the IJA/IJN really move, the dangers of reinforcing some places. A lot of people recommend to keep numerous saves, and to go back in time when you realize you’ve made a serious mistake, but this takes a lot of time and effort : if you have to go back two weeks when you need 4 or 6 hours to issue the orders for a turn, it’s a lot of time wasted on fine-tuning a lot of orders, which in the end were rightly done, but that you’ll have to do again because a minority of orders were a bad idea. Take no more than 30 minutes to issue your order, to keep the turns rolling - the focus is on understanding the larger picture, and not on getting the details right.
2) during that time, familiarize yourself with the scenario’s map ; distances between key bases, where your supply & fuel are produced, where you need them, which routes are safer, which bases are hidden gems (undeveloped bases with high SPS for the area, or islands in CenPac with a bigger stacking limit). Where the repairs may be done. How the off-map bases are connected to each other and to the map. Use the keyboard shortcuts to have a good view of the roads & railways, and also for the type of terrain and hex sides (F6).
3) familiarize yourself with your units, what their TOE is, which ones are unrestricted, how much the restricted units would cost (in PP) to be released, find the hidden gems there too (PP cost is reduced when a unit suffers from disablement, and there are a few units useful in the future). Check the databases, in game or in the editor, to compare the devices. Simply checking the Anti-Soft values of different infantry squads will show you why some nationalities are less useful, as they don’t have the better upgrades. Check the upgrade paths of devices, and how many of them you receive as replacements (or in convoys).
4) learn to use SigInt and the OpsReport to gather intelligence, as well as recon and other ways.
And only then, after you’ve let the scenario roll for a couple months of game time, should you start again, and this time in earnest.

Managing the full campaign requires a routine too, a way to keep your focus when reviewing your turn’s result and issue next turn’s orders. Find what works best for you. Not everything has to be checked each day : for example, pilot training may safely be checked only once a week, or even once a month. But others have to be checked daily, like you’re carriers or any ongoing air or land battle. You also need a clear view of your strategy : keep notes of the operations you plan, assign them names, time tables, units, supports, etc.

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Post #: 137
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 1:00:29 AM   
Ambassador

 

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This is an example of the notes I made about distances :
quote:

Eastern USA
- Canada = 20
- UK = 82
- - Aden +115 = 197
— - Abadan +47 = 244
— - Karachi +39 = 236
— - Bombay +52 = 249
— - Cochin +61 = 258
— - Colombo +67 = 264
- Panama = 45 (Cristobal) or 60 (Balboa)
- - San Diego +78 = 138
- - San Francisco +89 = 149
- - Pearl Harbor +107 = 167
— - Midway +30 = 197
— - Wake +49 = 216
— - Tabiteuea +57 = 224
— - Ponape +64 = 231
— - Guam +80 = 247
— - Manila +120 = 287
— - Noumea +93 = 260
— - Adak Island +55 = 315
- - Sydney +203 (up to 246 south route) = 263 (up to 306)
- - Auckland +184 (up to 201 south) = 244 (up to 261)
- - Pago Pago +140 = 200
— - Auckland +45 = 245
— - Sydney +62 = 262
- - Noumea +175 = 235
- - Tahiti +125 = 185
— - Auckland +61 = 246
— - Sydney +88 = 273
- Cape Town = 170
- - Perth +139 (+183 south route) = 309 (up to 353)
- - Adelaide +173 = 343
- - Melbourne +185 = 355
- - Mombasa +63 = 233
— - Karachi +60 = 293
— - Bombay +61 = 294
— - Abadan +53 = 286
—- - Karachi +27 = 313
- - Colombo +109 = 279
- - Bombay +129 = 299
- - Karachi +140 = 310
- - Batavia +114 = 284
- - Singapore +130 (north of Sumatra) (or +131 (south)) = 300
- Aden (after 05/14/43) = 162
- - Abadan +47 = 209
- - Karachi +39 = 201
- - Bombay +52 = 214
- - Cochin +61 = 223
- - Colombo +67 = 229
- - Singapore +111 (at least +143 via south Sumatra) = 273 (or >305)
- - Batavia +119 = 281
- - Perth +166 (or up to 220) = 328 (or up to 382)
- Port Stanley = 162
- - Auckland +189 (+212 south route) = 351 (up to 374)
- - Sydney +223 (+246 south route) = 385 (up to 408)
- - Pago Pago +168 = 330
- - Noumea +202 = 364

EDIT: sorry, the tabs are messed up on the forum. See this as mind-mapping, really, with different branches.

And this is about the devices, upgrades, replacements :
quote:

Indian squads
- I.S.F. Militia (1012) => Ind Inf Section 44 (1019, 44/02)
- Burmese squad (1011) => Ind Inf Section 44 (1019, 44/02)
- Indian Cavalry (H)(1013) => AFV Staghound I (1077, 43/09)
- Frontier Scouts (#918) => Frontier Scouts (#919, 41/12) => Ind Inf Section 43 (43/03)

Production :
- Burmese (5/12) : 6/month (41/12->42/04) = 30 squads
- Frontier Scouts (#918) (15/20, static) : none (42/03->43/02)
- Frontier Scouts (#919) (15/20) : 1/month (41/12->43/02) = 15 squads
- I.S.F. Militia (5/12) : 8/month (41/12->44/01) + convoy (36 in 42/03) = 244 squads
- Indian Cavalry (H) (5/12) : Pool 5 + 2/month (41/12->42/06) = 19 squads
- Ind Inf Section (5/14) : 12/month (41/12->42/01) = 24 squads
- Ind Inf Section 42 (15/19) : 48/month (42/01->43/03) + convoy (12 in 42/01, 24 in 42/02, 24 in 42/03, 48 in 42/05) = 828 squads
- Ind Inf Section 43 (75/21) : 60/month (43/03->44/04) + convoy (48 in 43/03) = 888 squads
- Ind Inf Section 44 (75/22) : 90/month (44/02->) + convoy (180 in 45/08) = 2.250 squads*
- Ind Cmbt Eng (25/16) : Pool 5 + 8/month (41/12->42/06) = 60 squads
- Ind Cmbt Eng 42 (25/20), 10/month (42/06->43/06) = 110 squads
- Ind Cmbt Eng 43 (75/29), 15/month (43/06->) = 465 squads*

*I stop the count December ‘45, and I include the anti-armor and anti-soft values of the different squad models (the numbers separated by a / in the parentheses).

Or the Commonwealth’s AFV upgrade paths :

quote:

British & Commonwealth tanks
- Marmon Herrington (#1078, 42/04) => M3A1 Armoured Car (#1079, 42/08) => Staghound I (#1077, 43/09)
- Improv. AFV (Lgt) (#1081) => Stuart I Light Tank (#1081, 42/01) => Stuart VI Light Tank (#1082, 43/10)
- RR/Vickers A/C (#1093) => Marmon Herrington (#1094, 41/12) = Humber I (#1095, 42/03) => Humber IV (#1096, 43/09) => Daimler (#1097, 44/06)
- Beaverette A/C (#1099) => ACV-IP (#1100, 41/12) => Humber I (#1095, 42/03)
- Improv. AFV (Hvy) (#1083, Australian) => Matilda II Tank (#1087, 42/01) => M3 Grant/Lee (#1090, 42/05) => Churchill VII (#1092, 45/09)
- Improv. AFV (Hvy) (#1085, Brit/Ind) => Vickers Tankettes (#1086, 41/12) => Valentine III Tank (#1088, 42/03) => General Lee (#1089, 42/07) => General Grant (#1084, 43/04) => Sherman Tank (#1091, 43/12) => Churchill VII (#1092, 45/09)

WitP Tracker is useful, but having those references under the eyes is helpful. Understanding the quantities of replacement devices, of planes, of pilots, of supply, that you will receive in the game is key to determining your strategy.

< Message edited by Ambassador -- 2/14/2021 1:05:28 AM >

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Post #: 138
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 9:36:26 AM   
RangerJoe


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Too bad the Brits did not use the Matilda as well, there are so many of them!

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Post #: 139
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 10:09:42 AM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Too bad the Brits did not use the Matilda as well, there are so many of them!

374 Matildas is not that much, knowing the 7 Australian Armoured Regiments will require 40 each. But the nearly 750 M3 Grant/Lee they upgrade to, those are a sizable pool of devices.

But it is much easier to upgrade the Australian units than the Brit & Indian ones, if only because the Vickers Tankettes chokehold is avoided.

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Post #: 140
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 12:33:53 PM   
Ian R

 

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Logistics.

Mmm.

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Post #: 141
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 1:32:29 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Logistics.

Mmm.


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Post #: 142
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 1:38:17 PM   
RhinoDad


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quote:

Mr. Stead
Looks like I fumbled the keyboard again and got that strike through


[S] is cross out [/S] is end cross out (Lower case s though)
is cross out is end cross out (Lower case s though)

< Message edited by RhinoDad -- 2/14/2021 1:45:11 PM >


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Post #: 143
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 1:45:34 PM   
Randy Stead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Auckland also has a size 15 Repair Shipyard, while Perth has a size 3 RSY perfect for submarines.

But do those show up in the Guadalcanal Scenario?

BTW Randy, I recall being surprised when the Guadalcanal Scenario ended on March 1, 1943. I was misled by the presence of reinforcement ships or LCUs showing for the scenario arriving much later. It's possible the end date was changed in the newest official patch, but checking the scenario end date in the Editor will confirm one way or another. IRL, Guadalcanal was declared secured at the end of Feb. 1943, which is a good reason for the scenario to end there.


I suppose the version I played is different to the version you played. My game ended April 2nd, 1943. The scenario notes say August 4 1942 to Feb 7 1943 but my game ran from Aug 6 1942 to Apr 2 1943. The scenario I played is the stock Guadalcanal scenario in the scenarios list supplied with game version 1.8.11.26b Sep-17-2016 17:03:37. I have the stock map and scenario list that are supplied with that version.

I do wish to play with a prettier map; I do like the look of the Paifica Bellum Kamikaze map [hope I quoted the name correctly but I am sure you know the map to which I refer] but I am under the impression that there are a few hexes in that map that appear playable or unplayable but are in fact the opposite. I do hope I am wrong in this but whichever map I eventually choose to use, I desire that all hexes be playable or unplayable as they appear. I heard that there is a hex near Manila that appears unnavigable but which in fact the AI will use.

After some reflection upon my previous post about what to do next after completing the Guadalcanal scenario I have decided that in spite of my "intimidation" I will proceed with the full 12-8-41 historical campaign as Allies vs AI Japan. I don't feel quite ready to take on any of the more challenging versions produce by scenario designers. Before doing so, however, I plan to engage in a period of study, rereading the manual and other game documents in an attempt to have a more solid grasp of the "simple" fundamentals that are required for a masterful play of this game. In particular I need to comprehend the intricacies of ship repair; how best to pair up the tenders and repair ships with their respective clients in order to be able to refuel, rearm and repair them without recourse to voyages to shipyards for issues that I should be able to cope with locally. An example of this was during my Guadalcanal scenario play I had vessels with minor levels of flotation and/or engine damage that could not be removed with normal readiness or pierside repair. I did not figure out how best to use the tenders in play and of course I eventually did receive an AR but to be honest did not know how best to employ it. Same with the small carriers. Some of this mishandling or underemployment was simply due to lack of resources to undertake larger operations, but some was due to lack of knowledge.

Therefore, a period of study is required, just as I did to prepare myself to play the Coral Sea and Guadalcanal scenarios. That seems to be my game learning style; study and preparation followed by trial, followed up with post-play contemplation and review. When I begin my long campaign I do not wish to do any re-dos of muffed turns. Errors of judgment I can live with, but I find it frustrating reloading because I goofed up simply due to poor preparation caused by lack of knowledge. For the next few days I will be poring over the manual, the forum squeeze and various documents I have accumulated in The Binder, and of course more forum study.

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Post #: 144
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 1:56:52 PM   
Randy Stead


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To add to my previous post... I wish to find a map that will be "for keeps" as well as investigate the AI updates I have heard about. In other words, I wish to take this game beyond its out of the box condition and tweak/mod it to my satisfaction as I have done with other games over the years, such as Silent Hunter 3, another favourite of mine, once I remedied the stock version into something playable and enjoyable once the bugs and ugliness were eliminated, reduced, enhanced. And then there the other tools available which I have not even touched yet, such as trackers; don't know what they do or how to use them or even if I have the ability and inclination to make it worthwhile using them. It's already challenging enough just learning the game itself.

One last question or two: is there a key you use to pull up where all of your shipyards are? Can you pull up a list of the initial and SPS of all the bases and dots in the game, aside from compiling all this data manually? At its core this game is a compilation of databases so perhaps there is an easier way to access this information without visiting every hex in the game?

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Post #: 145
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 2:13:29 PM   
RangerJoe


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The AR can reduce the major damage at 5 points or less. Read Alfred's very excellent repair guide as well as the tenders guide.

Play the Japanese side in this scenario before the campaign game.

But load up the campaign game and look at what the buttons on the top provide in the details that you are looking for.

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Post #: 146
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 2:18:53 PM   
RhinoDad


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In this thread is an comment you might find interesting from Kull Kull on Guadalcanal scenario

Here is another post from Kull Allied Setup Spreadsheet

You might find these to be of good read.

I would suggest that you save your first turn or two as they can take upwards of a day to complete. That way when you start over again you will have a very short time to spend, unless you are going for whole new strategy, to get your game going. As Ambassador stated, some will recommend that you make lots of saves and lots of restarts. I am not much of a mulligan taker and tend to live with my mistakes.

I have started a number of games over the years and so it is handy to just recall a saved game and make any adjustments before firing off a turn. I would suggest saving one copy down the list a bit as well as one for your daily use. The one down the list can be used as suggested as a restart even if it is a couple years down the road. It then gets you ready for Dec 8th. I prefer the Dec 7th start. Either way it saves may hours of initial turn set up.

Personally I would not be so quick with the moves as Ambassador but I agree I would not worry so much about getting it correct. But as I age I do not hold as much info in the head, for instant recall, and find myself referring repeatedly to notes and looking up bases, TFs, etc., so he is probably much quicker. It is just those first to 8 - 10 hour turns that I do not want to do repeatedly; so I save them. The large scenarios are more forgiving as you have more time to undo your oopses.

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Post #: 147
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 2:52:26 PM   
RhinoDad


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quote:

And then there the other tools available which I have not even touched yet, such as trackers; don't know what they do or how to use them or even if I have the ability and inclination to make it worthwhile using them. It's already challenging enough just learning the game itself.

One last question or two: is there a key you use to pull up where all of your shipyards are? Can you pull up a list of the initial and SPS of all the bases and dots in the game, aside from compiling all this data manually? At its core this game is a compilation of databases so perhaps there is an easier way to access this information without visiting every hex in the game?


Tracker Tracker 1.1 is very easy to use. I use no where near what it is capable of, but it is up and running in 15 min or less. At least what I use it for, it is rather intuitive.

With a click or two will be all your bases, a click more and all bases that need garrison and what is currently garrisoned there; resources, oil, shipyards, etc. It is a quick way to look at/print game data tables for future reference.

For this reason I would suggest that you give it a go.

It is also a quick way to sort your intel, etc. reports for quick review.

But then you will have to load each turn.

I am sure I am only using a small portion of its potential but it is a tool that simplifies data mining of game data tables. If you want you can export files and then manipulate them further in excel or other spreadsheet.

Although you can update it every turn my use is mostly to organize game data tables for reference. I updated the regions of bases in excel to better fit my geography and marry that to the game tables for my quick reference.

Believe Kull posted some work on forum with base geographic area but her(?) set up sheet has them as well.

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Post #: 148
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 2:57:29 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

quote:

And then there the other tools available which I have not even touched yet, such as trackers; don't know what they do or how to use them or even if I have the ability and inclination to make it worthwhile using them. It's already challenging enough just learning the game itself.

One last question or two: is there a key you use to pull up where all of your shipyards are? Can you pull up a list of the initial and SPS of all the bases and dots in the game, aside from compiling all this data manually? At its core this game is a compilation of databases so perhaps there is an easier way to access this information without visiting every hex in the game?


Tracker Tracker 1.1 is very easy to use. I use no where near what it is capable of, but it is up and running in 15 min or less. At least what I use it for, it is rather intuitive.

With a click or two will be all your bases, a click more and all bases that need garrison and what is currently garrisoned there; resources, oil, shipyards, etc. It is a quick way to look at/print game data tables for future reference.

For this reason I would suggest that you give it a go.

It is also a quick way to sort your intel, etc. reports for quick review.

But then you will have to load each turn.

I am sure I am only using a small portion of its potential but it is a tool that simplifies data mining of game data tables. If you want you can export files and then manipulate them further in excel or other spreadsheet.

Although you can update it every turn my use is mostly to organize game data tables for reference. I updated the regions of bases in excel to better fit my geography and marry that to the game tables for my quick reference.

Believe Kull posted some work on forum with base geographic area but her(?) set up sheet has them as well.


I do believe that you are using the wrong gender pronoun for Kull:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showProfile.asp?memid=25668

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Post #: 149
RE: Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now? - 2/14/2021 3:05:42 PM   
RhinoDad


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quote:

I do believe that you are using the wrong gender pronoun for Kull:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showProfile.asp?memid=25668


Probably so, thank you. Can never tell from avatar.

Although the avatar is a spitting image of a good friend of mine have known since we were both very young. Although now much older. Now we are in two far away places; brings back good memories.

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