Any practical reason to use low caliber guns?

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Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 1:13:04 AM

yutowap33

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Any practical reason to use low caliber guns, for arti or tanks? I feel that going for anything bellow 60mm is a waste.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 4:05:26 AM

jimwinsor

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More ammo expenditure, and probably fuel as well if mounted on a vehicle.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 4:17:42 AM

zgrssd

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For arti the rule is:
- bigger guns need a lot of ammo.
- the damage per shot is mostly fixed. However artillery with a lot of firepower is given additional attacks instead.
- the callibre is cut by 3, if ranged attack is used. And in defensive combat, Artillery adds a lot of Breakthrough protection thansk to shooting that often

For Tank/AT gun HV guns the rule is:
- Always get the biggest callibre. The last thing you want to do is ruin your hard attack, because you did not pack enough callibre
- pick the biggest tank to have the option for a big gun and heavy armor

For Howitzers:
- Actually 60mm is good enough for most cases.
- Improved Combat armor equals 60mm Armor, Battledress 80 and improved Battledress 100mm. So any Howitzer callibre beyond 100mm is propably wasted, unless the actuall enemy HP justify going bigger
- against infantry, 200 mm armor is also way enough
- I prefer using light tanks for anti-infantry

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/30/2021 4:18:56 AM >

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 4:29:50 AM

newageofpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

- against infantry, 200 mm armor is also way enough

Heavy Guided RPGs will punch through 200mm... But yes, 200mm is very safe in the early game.

< Message edited by newageofpower -- 1/30/2021 4:30:33 AM >

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 4:33:03 AM

redrum68

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Not really. In the vast majority of cases, its best to pick the largest gun you can unless you really have a wide front where you need cheaper units.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 4:57:42 AM

yutowap33

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My thought exactly. Sure in theory, lower caliber means lower ammo usage, and used to field it for early advantage and field testing. But in practice they are only good against low armor minors, which you can easily swarm without it, and if you need to wage war early against major you'd waste a lot more on upgrades/replacements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
..

As always very informative post

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 5:17:23 AM

newageofpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yutowap33
if you need to wage war early against major you'd waste a lot more on upgrades

Think of it as "economized field testing"; if you've got a decent technician sitting in the Model Design seat you want your model line to be experiencing as much combat as possible.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 8:39:20 AM

BlueTemplar

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But then if you have a very good Technician, wouldn't you tend to give him more BP anyway, resulting in more designs... making the effect of field testing maybe less important ?

As for more cheap weak units vs less powerful units - doesn't it take quite a lot of (sub?)units for a hex to become overstacked ? So I doubt that overkill on calibre/plating is helpful (depending on how fast the opponent is likely to upgrade his own calibre/plating, and how much you're lacking recruits & food...). Obsolete vehicles can also have a second life at fighting minors.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 2:22:37 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

But then if you have a very good Technician, wouldn't you tend to give him more BP anyway, resulting in more designs... making the effect of field testing maybe less important ?

The structural design roll is fixed after the first model in the line.
The base design is rolled once, then only increased via field testing.
All further design scores are rolled once per design pass - based on the structural and base design scores - and the better from the current or new roll is taken.

Unless you had exceptionally bad rolls on the subscores, Field testing is the only way for a Design to improove.

That all being said, the values for field testing are:
"- You�ll earn 1 Field Testing points for a Subunit of the Model placing a hit on an enemy.
- You�ll earn 5 Field Testing points for a Subunit of the Model being hit by an enemy." - 5.12.4. fIeld testInG

As artillery is in the backline it is very unlikely to be hit - ever - except by enemy artillery and breakthroughs. Meanwhile a lot of attacks give a good chance to hit and prevent breakthroughs.
A "suicide move" attack with only artillery might be a viable to way to get some field testing for resources by having the units be slaughtered, but it seems cheaper to "do unto others" instead.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 3:35:14 PM

BlueTemplar

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Well, no, it's not the only way, since your Technician might be able to roll better design scores, whether on an upgrade or a new design ! (Though does the Technician score helps getting better rolls, or just more "design BPs" therefore more rolls ?)

So it's more like if you have a *bad* (and/or unhappy) technician that you'll want to mostly rely on field testing, and only rarely make new designs / design upgrades ?

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 4:46:21 PM

AgentFransis

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Field testing is the only way to get a good unit. Just doing designs over and over without field testing will only produce trivial improvements unless some of the rolls are exceptionally low.

The technician skill only reduces design time.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 5:02:17 PM

BlueTemplar

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I guess that there's a limit to how high you can roll without field testing (which "only" directly increases Base Design, right?)? How high and how unlikely is it ?

Also, the increasing BP cost of new designs (or even just design upgrades) makes for diminishing returns...

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 6:58:04 PM

yutowap33

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
The structural design roll is fixed after the first model in the line.

Indeed. Unless playing on easy, between improving my line troops and fixing bad roll models, there is no time to play with low caliber arti or tanks, so I always start with 60mm arti and light tanks. And it is only later in the game that the decision becomes more nuanced.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 7:58:29 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

I guess that there's a limit to how high you can roll without field testing (which "only" directly increases Base Design, right?)? How high and how unlikely is it ?

Also, the increasing BP cost of new designs (or even just design upgrades) makes for diminishing returns...

I repeat:
Strutural Design is rolled once. Never increases or decreases for that entire design line. You want it as high as possible on the first model of a line. The only way to get a better value is to start model line from scratch.

Base Design is rolled once. And increases only via Field Experience. I high start roll is nice, but a low roll is easily fixed by field experience.

All the other design scores are either:
- a new roll being based on Structural and new Bases Design
- the previous roll, if it is higher
So they only trend upwards. The maximum/range of each roll is limited by Structural and Base Design, but it never goes down.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 8:23:46 PM

Soar_Slitherine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Base Design is rolled once. And increases only via Field Experience. I high start roll is nice, but a low roll is easily fixed by field experience.

Actually, the base design is also rerolled with new iterations of a model. It will increase even with 0 field testing if the new roll is better.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 8:54:56 PM

Nagabaron

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I wish Artillery could gain more experience being in the back. There should be a minor mechanic to distribute experience to back-line units from the front. Losing Artillery subunits means you were smashed like a Soviet Corps in 1941.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 10:01:49 PM

DTurtle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AgentFransis

Field testing is the only way to get a good unit. Just doing designs over and over without field testing will only produce trivial improvements unless some of the rolls are exceptionally low.

This is almost true. You need high field testing ONCE per model line (the earlier the better). Every iteration of a model does increase the maximum base design by 10. So there is always some room for improvement. But if you get your base design up to 120 or so with the first two iterations, you do not really need that much field testing any more for the next few iterations as the base design score can only go up a little bit after that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine
Actually, the base design is also rerolled with new iterations of a model. It will increase even with 0 field testing if the new roll is better.

Huh, never noticed that. However that reroll can only be between 70 and 100. So you will usually not really see that have any effect.

< Message edited by DTurtle -- 1/30/2021 10:07:02 PM >

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/30/2021 10:17:51 PM

zgrssd

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I did just write a suggestion to make small callibre guns have a purpose:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4952524

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 1/31/2021 1:12:15 PM

BlueTemplar

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I assumed that smaller calibre foot arty would be less expensive - how come nobody in this discussion has pointed out that smaller calibre is MORE expensive, when counting in attack power * shots / production cost, while costing the same for power * shots / ammo... and this is without even considering the calibre itself (which might be the most important stat) ?!?

(See the link above for the calculations.)

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 2/2/2021 11:42:15 AM

Mina

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Artillery has a maximum hard/soft attack value kind of thing going on, where more firepower just means more shots per turn.

I've made a 300mm, 105mm, and 40mm howitzer with identical model design rolls and they all have the same soft attack values. They only differ in that the 300mm Model has 8 attacks per round, the 105mm has 4 per round, and the 40mm has 2.

Things get weird when it comes to other calibres though, it's hard to predict how it'll scale attack values and attacks per round from a given firepower value.

At any rate: The values for a model's design rolls are determined at the time you start the design, and will remain the same for a given unit type. So you can save before giving your model council an order, make your design, end turn, and then reload your save after checking out your new design and doing it again. That way, you can figure out the perfect calibre choice for your current tech level and such to get the most efficient result.

Or just choose 300mm all the time. That'll get you the most attacks per round and near-highest attack values.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 2/2/2021 12:18:36 PM

BlueTemplar

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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4952802

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Well, a bigger gun does increase firepower indirectly, via its calibre !
By the way, why is there no intermediate howitzer calibre between 105 and 150mm ? 120mm would be perfect for ranged attacks against 40mm plating (like Combat Armor). Right now, you're forced to either go underpowered or overkill...

This is a great suggestion, however there needs to be some additional progression for firepower and costs, if you were to introduce right now a 20mm/5 attacks howitzer from the very start it would both be very expensive to field and absolutely SHRED <7mm plating targets !

So, let's see : right now a 25mm Howitzer costs 20 metal & 15 IP for 0.6 ammo/shot, while a 150mm Howitzer costs 50 Metal and 35 IP for 2.6 ammo / shot - both for a Padded Arty... hmm, now that I think of it, the 150mm with 6 time the calibre, 2 time the attacks and 2 time the attack power actually is waaaay too cheap (even for the ammo cost, which is only 4 times higher) !

And since both the 25mm and 150mm are available from the start, it's no wonder that players directly pick the biggest ! (At least for foot arty, where weight isn't a consideration.)
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4951892

So, at the very least, bigger calibre Howitzers (that foot arty can use) need to be made much more expensive to field and fire, because there's probably no point in using anything than the biggest 150mm!
(I didn't do the math for the stats of the intermediate calibres, but I guess it works in the same way?)

When smaller calibre is MORE expensive for its effective firepower rather than less, I don't see *any* point in designing a model with a smaller calibre, EVER.
The only situation I can think of would be if you're *so* lacking items that you can't even afford half a battallion / a battlegroup of 3 (whichever is the cheapest). But in that case you might want to instead slow down any construction you might have to 25% and/or buy the missing items from traders !

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 2/2/2021 12:21:21 PM >

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 2/2/2021 2:20:15 PM

newageofpower

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Well, weight. Light tanks with +15% movespeed can cover zoomed out plains with a good OHQ commander, and its almost impossible to do that while using 60mm guns.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 2/2/2021 2:27:09 PM

BlueTemplar

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That's why I said "when", and used towed arty as an example (I haven't done the math for other models yet).

AFAIK towed arty's model weight - different from logistic "bulk" weight of always 5 dat - has no effect whatsoever ?

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 2/2/2021 2:28:30 PM >

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 2/2/2021 2:28:26 PM

newageofpower

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Yeah, arty aren't hard targets though. Attacking into MGs with truck arty is... hairy.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 2/2/2021 2:31:02 PM

BlueTemplar

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Maybe, but I don't see what this has to do in this conversation, since we aren't talking exclusively about hard models ?
Also arty has (who would have thought it!) Ranged Attack !

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 2/2/2021 2:55:46 PM

newageofpower

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My point was there are some combinations of weapons caliber and hard targetness that are useful for flanking/deep penetration tactics, rather than always mounting the biggest gun possible.

Yutowap (OP) specifically mentioned tanks, so I dunno why you're twisting your panties over me talking about how towed arty =/= tanks

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 2/2/2021 3:56:10 PM

BlueTemplar

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You're right, my bad, I overreacted.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 3/13/2021 11:50:43 AM

BlueTemplar

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I hadn't noticed before, but what determines the biggest calibre that towed arty can use ?
It seems to go from 150mm to 300mm as the game progresses, but I haven't been to figure out what gives the intermediate 180mm and 240mm ?

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 3/13/2021 12:25:38 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

I hadn't noticed before, but what determines the biggest calibre that towed arty can use ?
It seems to go from 150mm to 300mm as the game progresses, but I haven't been to figure out what gives the intermediate 180mm and 240mm ?

I can remember Vic mentioning it once. I think it was general Techlevel?

I have no idea what to search for to find it right now, however.

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RE: Any practical reason to use low caliber guns? - 4/30/2021 4:10:27 PM

mek42

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Primarily for role-play reasons, for leg units (usually heavy siege infantry) I like to use no more than 88mm, to represent a 75mm pack howitzer sort of gun. For towed guns (i.e. I'm moving them with trucks or APCs), I tend to go big. For self-propelled guns, there would be a weight / engine size consideration.

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