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RE: Week 6 - 2/19/2021 11:24:42 PM

Light4bettor

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Don't know if my screen shot will post but here it goes:

This is an OKH produced sitrep (situation report) as of the evening of 02 Aug 1941 AGS. It would be somewhat equivalent in location to finishing all your MPs on Turn 6 (27 July 1941). 14 Pz and 60 Mot divs are a little over 200kms from Poltava as the crow flies on this date (and of course still on the wrong side of the Dnper).

It seems plausible that if AGS had not found itself pocketing and destroying forces in the vicinity of Uman (in the mid July to early Aug period; apprx. 3 game turns), then they may well have had the combat power, time, and logistics to push hard toward Poltava (during the time frame in question). Now, how well they could have been supplied and with ammo and fuel once they made it to that area is another question. On the balance, I think at least closely approaching Poltava at this stage of the war (at the finish of turn 6) is at least within the realm of possibility. However, it seems it should be in a slightly more precarious position.

Also need to take into account the Soviet player's disposition and other factors, e.g., maybe he/she has weighted the Northern fronts at the expense of the Southern, deciding not to seriously contest southern Ukraine.

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< Message edited by Light4bettor -- 2/20/2021 12:25:05 AM >

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Post #: 61

RE: Week 6 - 2/20/2021 9:37:25 AM

Hanny

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That�s from the LoC resource Ww2 sit reps, which is online free to download for the war in the Eastyou could also use Glantz weekly maps which would give you where a formation was, where it went by each week, both will give you about the same outcome. 14 panzer in game has over achieved by around 1100 klm to 800 historically achieved. You can cost out mps to get a more accurate explanation of weekly movement and supply, and I don�t have the 2.0 numbers, but 14 panzer is achieving around 10 hexes a week in game, when we know from QM reports it was losing c40% of MTV to lack of spares by end off July to more far less distances.

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Post #: 62

RE: Week 6 - 2/20/2021 10:48:03 AM

Nix77

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I got those Barbarossa day-by-day 21.6. - 6.12.1941 maps from Digital Archive, absolutely an amazing resource.

I guess a big deviation from history in Bobo's game is the Soviet side's reluctance to hold the river lines. Historically Dnepr river south of Kiev was a difficult obstacle for the Germans, and I think any Soviet player should strive to make it so in the game too. First crossings were not made until late August, with major breakthroughs in September.

My strategy as the Soviet player would be to make the Germans pay every extra MP possible to cross any of the rivers, minor and especially major. Rivers are a huge MP sink for the units and supply if controlled by the opposition.

Here's the situation on 11.9.1941, that would be Turn 12-13 in the game. Dnepr still being the barrier blocking the majority of German southern advance.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 2/20/2021 10:54:56 AM >

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Post #: 63

RE: Week 7 - 2/20/2021 7:31:13 PM

rmeckman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAS

I believe it's due to the presence of the 9th army HQ and an FBD creating a "super depot", but I'm just guessing based on what I think I've read in these posts. I don't understand how a 9800 tons freight capacity can actually receive 29,948 tons.

I think WiTE2 still draws railyard capacity from near the depot sending freight and not the receiving depot, so the 30k tons of freight arriving at Vitebsk was mainly using railyards around Berlin. The 9800 tons at Vitebsk would be used to entrain units nearby or to send freight from a depot in the area that can forward freight on to other depots.

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Post #: 64

RE: Week 7 - 2/20/2021 9:17:44 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmeckman

quote:

ORIGINAL: MAS

I believe it's due to the presence of the 9th army HQ and an FBD creating a "super depot", but I'm just guessing based on what I think I've read in these posts. I don't understand how a 9800 tons freight capacity can actually receive 29,948 tons.

I think WiTE2 still draws railyard capacity from near the depot sending freight and not the receiving depot, so the 30k tons of freight arriving at Vitebsk was mainly using railyards around Berlin. The 9800 tons at Vitebsk would be used to entrain units nearby or to send freight from a depot in the area that can forward freight on to other depots.

yes, the rail capacity is derived from the location it starts in, so its what is around Berlin that matters for the first stage.

what then happens is that the cost of moving freight steadily escalates till it can't move from X - y in a single turn, so gets dropped off at an intermediate depot (which is why you need to build and retain a chain of depots from the NSS to the front line).

As an eg, send a division by train say from axis held Novgorod and you will consume the local rail stock pretty quickly, send it from Berlin and it'll entrain (the issue that remains is how far it will reach)

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Post #: 65

Week 8 - 2/22/2021 9:09:14 AM

821Bobo

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Turn 8, 10.8.1941

After few turns break, series of unpleasant events this week. Partisan activity is increasing and garrison shortage in the west once again.

Enemy launched couple of mostly successful attacks and opened the small pocket in south.

Soviet air force bombarded railyards in Mogilev(is not connected to my supply network yet) and Gomel. The whole of JG51 was stationed in Gomel but none of the fighters intercepted, otherwise that could have been a nice slaughter. Anyway Soviets did lost 160 planes.

Didn't gain much territory this week but there were some local successes.

AGN

In the north Tallinn was taken, 4th Panzer Group crossed the Luga on a broader sector and the main rail connecting Leningrad with the rest of Soviet Union have been cut. I hope this will cause supply difficulty for the Soviets.

AGC

Very limited activity in the center. I have launched the first attack on Smolensk and surprisingly the city fell. I was expecting some 2 or 3 deliberate attacks will be needed, definitely I got lucky here.
Panzers are still resting, more infantry is needed.

AGS

Kiev was taken but other than that only trying to get into the contact with enemy. Panzers are resting here as well.

Italians arrived.

Again bad weather forecast for next week. Rain from north towards Smolensk.

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Post #: 66

RE: Week 6 - 2/22/2021 2:12:48 PM

MAS

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quote:

LoC resource Ww2 sit reps

If it's not too much trouble, could you post a link to these maps?

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Post #: 67

RE: Week 6 - 2/22/2021 2:59:31 PM

Hanny

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Hi

I am using the wife�s I pad while we are moving house so the best I can do is say, search for library of Congress world war2 military situation maps, that will take you to a selection for all fronts, the eastern front one is the one your after.Once you find it, IE, you have the title and author,you can download as a pdf with ease.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 2/22/2021 3:00:15 PM >

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Post #: 68

RE: Week 6 - 2/22/2021 3:01:05 PM

Light4bettor

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https://www.loc.gov/item/map51000141/

You can download it in different resolutions. TIFF is the highest resolution, but takes awhile to download.

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Post #: 69

RE: Week 8 - 2/22/2021 3:06:32 PM

MAS

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Hello Robert, et al - Some questions on Kronstadt please.

1) From the AGN screenshot, it appears there is a fortification unit there. Since the land access has impassable beach hexsides, it would seem the only purpose of fortifying Kronstadt is to repel amphibious assault, or are there other benefits such as making it more resistant to port damage from bombing?

2) Do the Germans have an amphibious capability in the Baltic? (They should as evidenced by their successful assaults against defended beaches on Saaremaa and Muhu Islands in Sept/Oct '41, operations Beowulf II and Siegfried).

3) If they do, how would that potentially interact with the Baltic Fleet? How does naval gunfire support work in WITE2?

4) Does Kronstadt have any Naval Gun batteries intrinsically attached, such as AA and engineers can be attached?

5) Any other information re: Naval Transport / Amphibious abilities vs. defense systems would be appreciated, such as defensive minefields, small craft, submarines, etc. I know it is abstracted, would just like to know how it works in the game.

Thanks much!

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Post #: 70

RE: Week 6 - 2/22/2021 3:53:24 PM

MAS

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thank you!

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Post #: 71

RE: Week 8 - 2/22/2021 4:30:00 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAS

Hello Robert, et al - Some questions on Kronstadt please.

1) From the AGN screenshot, it appears there is a fortification unit there. Since the land access has impassable beach hexsides, it would seem the only purpose of fortifying Kronstadt is to repel amphibious assault, or are there other benefits such as making it more resistant to port damage from bombing?

2) Do the Germans have an amphibious capability in the Baltic? (They should as evidenced by their successful assaults against defended beaches on Saaremaa and Muhu Islands in Sept/Oct '41, operations Beowulf II and Siegfried).

3) If they do, how would that potentially interact with the Baltic Fleet? How does naval gunfire support work in WITE2?

4) Does Kronstadt have any Naval Gun batteries intrinsically attached, such as AA and engineers can be attached?

5) Any other information re: Naval Transport / Amphibious abilities vs. defense systems would be appreciated, such as defensive minefields, small craft, submarines, etc. I know it is abstracted, would just like to know how it works in the game.

Thanks much!

1 - A lot of work has gone into the OOBs, the game may actually be worth buying as a near definitive pulling together of the current research into the historical OOBs on the key dates. Which is a long way of saying, there are some things in the game that exist simply because they were there historically

2 - not ampbib as such, but they can invade the Baltic islands

3 - The Soviets have a TF similar to WiTW in the Black Sea but its not got the gunnery or overall power of the Western Allies. But they have some capacity for naval invasions as a result.

4 - the OOB around the various Soviet naval forts is being reworked but yes, the FZ has attached AA etc which all adds into the challenge of attacking Leningrad

5 - both sides can do naval transport in the various sea areas (incl the Soviets on Ladoga and the Caspian). Ports auto-generate naval interdiction and that picks up all the small crafts, minefields etc. For the most part, both sides then use naval air missions to either close down or keep a port open. So really the variable is the naval air commitment (both the specialist planes and any others you commit to the task)

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Post #: 72

RE: Week 8 - 2/22/2021 5:10:24 PM

MAS

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Nice to hear about the near definitive OOB! I really appreciate all the hard work the developers have put into this. Even better to hear about continuing OOB work such as the naval forts. Don't forget about the 4 twin 305mm turrets at Sevastopol!

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Post #: 73

RE: Week 6 - 2/23/2021 7:20:10 AM

Hanny

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAS

thank you!

Your welcome. All simulations are only as good as the data they contain, and where there is conflicting data, you have to make a choice as to which to use. Your example for the TOE of 1st Panzer, the game uses askey data, rather than German production and in service numbers, compare Askey number of trucks in the pool, c170k at game start, which is usually reported as 60k tons of Grosstruppen capacity, so Askey data is around thrice that of Wagners, with German production numbers of all trucks, (USSBR Motor vechicles industrial report)and you see Askey gives the Heer more trucks to move supplies than Germany has built, ( more than all of Europe had built)let alone put into military units or into civilian or state economy.

Upthread you can see Panzer Groups with c40 mps which gave them 10 hexes of manouver on average, (look at a Div after it moves its full turn, it has moved all its fuel munitions etc forward on its own, combat units with a combat load moved c a third of that on their own, the rest on Div asset, it has also sent each day for replacement of wanted items in the last 24 hours, so 7 round trips from the nearest supply source, does it look right to you or not?, we will all have in our minds an idea of what is probable)

In game the difference on which data is preferred is that Germany has greater forward lift capacity with Askey numbers over German in service numbers, so it�s pace of operations is faster and reaches further.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 2/23/2021 7:36:57 AM >

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Post #: 74

RE: Week 6 - 2/25/2021 1:40:18 AM

Bozo_the_Clown

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quote:

https://www.loc.gov/item/map51000141/

You can download it in different resolutions. TIFF is the highest resolution, but takes awhile to download.

Thanks for the link. Amazing material. The maps stop December 1941. Do you know if the second volume is available as well?

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Post #: 75

RE: Week 6 - 2/25/2021 2:33:31 AM

Light4bettor

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Hi Bozo,

You might not read all this but I'll put this caveat out there for others.
Honestly I'm trying to find out the background of this volume.
I can speculate though with a some degree of certainty (based on my limited military/life experience):

1) Divisional protocol would be that individual divisions would be required to report their location and status to Korps headquarters at a certain time every evening no matter what they were doing (lets say 2000 hours or 8 pm).

2) Korps HQs would then send this info up to Armee HQ level, Armee HQ would combine all their Korp reports which would go to Armee Group HQ level, then those Armee Gruppe reports would be sent to OKH HQ- where a couple of Junior officers under a Captain would combine all the info and then mark all the units on the Big map that evening/ early morning.

Purpose A: to have a big map somewhat current for the whole front for the General Staff/ Hitler
Purpose B: military study/ posterity: in the beginning of Barbarossa most are expecting an easy victory, so lets make something for posterity so we can relive our victorious campaign with our fellow veterans and grandchildren, and have guide for training schools.

You'll notice in September-Oct-Nov (right when most realize they've just been married to a war that has no easy end in sight, you'll notice the start of missed days that are not recorded on the maps).

So, short answer-- no incentive to record the horror/embarrassment of what happened in Dec/Jan (at least in terms of a publishable volume), and with the war's conclusion looking uncertain, there is no incentive to continue making a second volume.

By the way, if you look at 45 ID in the first week, its not made clear that they are investing Brest Litovsk (it shows them there but no indication of enemy forces, unless the way its circle is drawn means that..),
and 8th Panzer divisions being cut-off at Stoltsy in mid-july for a few days is not made clear either on that map (just for a couple of small examples). There seems (and again I'm just speculating) to be a propensity to downplay setbacks on that map.
On the other hand, the Yelnya salient battles, the Russian assaults on it, and the German's eventual withdrawal from it is made fairly clear.

and their listings of Red Army units on the map is only their best guesses based on intel/air recon/ interrogations.
Just saying don't rely on it for absolute accuracy in certain instances, but yeah its invaluable.

Just looking at June 21 evening report, you can see the actual location of everything on the evening of the invasion. which is fascinating in itself.

Side note: I'm guessing those Junior OKH officers who were marking the maps every evening-- were called to the front during the Winter emergency. (last map is Dec 6 right).

< Message edited by Light4bettor -- 2/25/2021 3:07:05 AM >

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Post #: 76

RE: Week 6 - 2/25/2021 4:57:39 AM

SigUp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor
I can speculate though with a some degree of certainty (based on my limited military/life experience):

These maps are based on the daily situation maps prepared for high command / Hitler. The below link contains a good description of these maps:
http://downloads.sturmpanzer.com/Guides/NARA_SituationMaps_Guide_EasternTheater.PDF

Years ago a lot of these maps (very comprehensive for 1941, partially comprehensive for 1942 in centre and north) were available on a website called wwii-photo-maps (via a link to an FTP server). While that is no longer openly accessible anymore, it seems you can still get access by mailing the guy who is maintaining it(he seems to have Russian maps as well):

http://wwii-microfilm.blogspot.com/

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Post #: 77

RE: Week 6 - 2/25/2021 5:24:30 AM

Light4bettor

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Thank you!

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Post #: 78

RE: Week 6 - 2/25/2021 5:49:51 AM

Light4bettor

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Of course its not definitive, but I like to use the map in conjunction with other primary sources like Halder's war diary. the first picture is situation AGS evening 11 Jul. The second picture is an excerpt from Halder's diary of 12 Jul.

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Post #: 79

Halder - 2/25/2021 5:53:53 AM

Light4bettor

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RE: Halder - 2/25/2021 7:48:18 AM

loki100

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all fascinating stuff but perchance better as a thread on its own rather than as a distinct divergence within a MP AAR? Makes it hard for someone who is just following that to work out what is relevant here?

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Post #: 81

RE: Halder - 2/25/2021 3:13:05 PM

Light4bettor

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Correct, sorry.

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Post #: 82

Week 9 - 2/26/2021 3:05:43 PM

821Bobo

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Turn 9, 17.8.1941

The Soviets committed their airforce to bombing the Pskov railyard without effect. Only few bombers reached Pskov and all were shot down. However they also hit Smolensk hard. First wave was intercepted and slaughtered to the last pilot but the second wave found empty skies, causing heavy damage. At least FlaK got another 18.

AGC

The two axis drives towards Moscow continue. 3rd Panzer Group moved along the Minsk-Smolensk-Moscow road, literally the only one good road in Soviet Union. Hoth's men reached and captured weakly defended Vyazma. Defended only by some 3000 men strong cavalry division.

Tim is using cavalry very effectively, cutting my spearheads or intruding behing my lines. But the cavalry are also paying the price and are often massacred, most of the cavalry divisions are barely few thousand men strong now.

2nd Panzer Group did some progress as well. I decided to bypass Orel and threaten Soviets with big encirclement.

AGS

1st Panzer Group is advancing to Donbas. Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye both of which have been turned into the fortresses therefore I decided to divert FBD towards Kremenchug because I have no idea when I will be able to get Dnepropetrovsk.

More to the south 11. army and Romanians crossed Dneper on broad front.

Not much to report from the north. Raining as forecasted, Panzers are resting and next week will rain too. If I am not mistaken this will be fifth week with rain, its a little frustrating.

< Message edited by 821Bobo -- 2/26/2021 3:06:35 PM >

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Week 10 - 3/3/2021 8:50:52 AM

821Bobo

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Turn 10, 24.8.1941

Soviets launched series of attacks, mostly aimed against AGC. 19th Panzer Division was most heavily punished. Divided into three regiments, guarding the rear of 18th Motorized Division in Vyazma. All 3 regiments were routed.

Its worth noting that worn down formations, especially if they now lack active combat elements, are at risk of this sort of collapse.

In general with WitE2 you find that actions have consequences, so having made a rapid advance some of my key formations are now suffering till they have chance to rest and refit.

Still raining therefore no progress this week. AGN on rest. AGC regained the lines from previous week.

In the south, 1st Panzer Group is severely weakened and on rest too. Some panzer divisions have no more than couple dozens of tanks. 17th Army did isolate Dnepropetrovsk and 11th Army made big push from the shores of Dneper towards Crimea.

The happy times of big gains are definitely over.

Probably due to the bad weather, I had tremendous ops losses this week. Lesson learned, don't fly in bad weather. Soviets grounded their air force.

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RE: Week 10 - 3/3/2021 12:37:15 PM

MAS

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Thanks for showing the consequences of flying in bad weather - that's eye opening.

A potentially new Kesselschlacht is forming between Panzer Groups 2 & 3. It will be interesting to see if Gloriousruse withdraws from that area or not.

Where are your FBD's located? It looks like you may have a super-depot in Smolensk? Does 2nd Panzer Group have enough fuel for such a drive? And lastly, given the current weakness of many of your motorized troops, could you even maintain an encirclement?

Although you are "ahead of schedule" compared to the historical Barbarossa, the consequence of driving too far ahead of your logistics appears to be catching up (as you and Gloriousruse have described).

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Post #: 85

RE: Week 10 - 3/3/2021 12:57:19 PM

821Bobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAS

Thanks for showing the consequences of flying in bad weather - that's eye opening.

A potentially new Kesselschlacht is forming between Panzer Groups 2 & 3. It will be interesting to see if Gloriousruse withdraws from that area or not.

Thats the plan, if they retreat I will unleash Panzers into the open terrain if not I will go for pocket.

quote:

Where are your FBD's located? It looks like you may have a super-depot in Smolensk? Does 2nd Panzer Group have enough fuel for such a drive? And lastly, given the current weakness of many of your motorized troops, could you even maintain an encirclement?

Although you are "ahead of schedule" compared to the historical Barbarossa, the consequence of driving too far ahead of your logistics appears to be catching up (as you and Gloriousruse have described).

FBDs are at Luga, Smolensk, Bryansk and Kremenchug. 2nd Panzer is literally sitting on a depot so yes they do.
Soviets have the capacity to open encirclements so I always count it is 50/50 (break/hold).

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Post #: 86

RE: Week 10 - 3/3/2021 2:06:19 PM

MAS

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Kremenchug is fairly distant from PzGrp 1, and Luga a bit distant from the last screen shot of PzGrp 4. Are FBDs still the only way to convert rail gauge, or can other engineer support units do it automatically?

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Post #: 87

RE: Week 10 - 3/3/2021 2:45:56 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAS

Kremenchug is fairly distant from PzGrp 1, and Luga a bit distant from the last screen shot of PzGrp 4. Are FBDs still the only way to convert rail gauge, or can other engineer support units do it automatically?

you have less (both sides) of the auto-repair SUs. If I recall the Germans start with 9, and in testing most players are giving these initially to AGN as they are good at piecing back together the Baltic rail net.

The bigger issue though is (& I realise this sounds obvious), this isn't WiTE1. A functioning 'super' depot 10-12 hexes behind the front is of far more practical value than having your rail net up to the front lines.

Which, predictably, sets up a dynamic. Repair to a big railyard, set it up to supply operations, at some stage the front moves too far that it starts to really cost trucks to access that depot. So you disband the infrastructure (HQ and FBD) and repair another stretch and repeat the process. Behind one of your army groups you can have one FBD repairing and one aiding the logistics but elsewhere its getting a feel for when to make these moves

if your FBD just repair, you're going to run into real problems.

All this applies to both sides pretty equally. In the end the Soviets have about 8-9 NKPS but then they need more (& larger depots) to supply their offensives

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Post #: 88

Week 11 - 3/5/2021 6:58:55 PM

821Bobo

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Turn 11, 31.8.1941

As seems to be common practice, the Soviets launched again few counterattacks when they saw some opportunity. Nothing serious this week but they managed to cut off 3 mobile units in south.

I already mentioned that 1st Panzer Group is severely weakened. Some of the Panzer divisions can now hardly be called tank units. Won't do any offensive operation with them this week.

Dnepropetrovsk looks lightly defended, attack value only 4 and defense under 100. That is good sign, my estimation is 2 or 3 divisions inside.

Dnepropetrovsk was successfully attacked, defended only by 2 rifle divisions. I am not sure if building fortress was worth the admin points.
17th Army is marching towards Donbass and leave Romanians to deal with Zaporozhye. The city is not on the main rail therefore no pressure here.

11th Army started to grind into the Crimea.

The only new offensive operation conducted happened in north. Though the advance has been only 3 hexes, we finally reached gates of Leningrad. As a bonus five enemy units ended isolated. Those rainy weeks enabled a build up to 100CPP for 4th Panzer Group.

That infantry division on train is the Spanish Blue Division.

In center, 2nd and 3rd Panzer Groups are building CPPs for planned operation against the salient between Vyazma, Kaluga and Orel. There is a chance for decent pocket if Soviets will not abandon it.

After continuously poor weather, there will be rain all over the Europe next week too. However our eastern armies have new ally in form of high pressure front that will hold the guard over the whole east front. If so, I can look forward to some clear weather at a critical stage.

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Post #: 89

RE: Week 11 - 3/5/2021 9:01:30 PM

MAS

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Regarding the AGN screenshot:

1) the 'blue' division's rating of 1=1 is obviously weak for a new, fresh division. Is it shown that way because it's onboard a train?

2) presumably you have converted the double track to Luga, and established a priority 4 depot there. Given the direction of your schwerpunkt (PzGrp 4), I'm surprised at the single track conversion you appear to be conducting 2 hexes NE of Luga. I would have thought you'd continue converting the double track more directly behind PzGrp 4, or left the FBD at Luga for a 'super-depot'. What am I missing?

3) the motorized division 2 hexes SW of Leningrad shows 6=4. Is it that weak due to high fatigue, low supply, low CPP? That spot looks very vulnerable to a Soviet counter-attack from just the adjacent 10 and 11 stacks, with the unknown tank division 2 hexes east possibly able to exploit and re-occupy the hex. Given how retreating units in WITE2 seem to take high casualties, would it have been better to leave another one of your exploiting divisions (perhaps the 7=12 motorized xx to the NW) in that hex as well?

Maybe you have a cunning plan... :-) BTW, I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just jealous you have the game and I have to wait 3 weeks! Thanks for your excellent AARs and patience with my many annoying questions.

(in reply to 821Bobo)

Post #: 90