couple of questions about scrap, upgrade and replace

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couple of questions about scrap, upgrade and replace - 2/5/2021 3:03:21 AM

yutowap33

Posts: 71
Joined: 11/1/2017
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> Scrap - Returns soldiers to population and recovers 50% of equipment construction cost.

1. Why scarp returns soldiers to population instead of recruitment pool? that just extra cost for troop upgrade, and we already have an option to return recruits to population through colonization option.

>Upgrade - Replace unit equipment, works for infantry units
>Replace - Same as Upgrade for other units.

2. Upgrading seem to auto scraps the old equipment in return 50% of old equipment cost, however that calculated per unit model, thus due to rounding it means that if you upgrade 100 grunts recruited at the cost of 100IP+100metal you get 0 refund. But if you recruit 100 grunts at the cost 200IP+200Meal you get 100IP+100Metal.

3. The purpose of replacement seem to make production more realistic, so we have to utilize older models. But it works exactly the same as Upgrade just with extra step as first you have to buy a whole new unit (and no auto scraps the old equipment.) Why the extra step, why it can't do it for me?

< Message edited by yutowap33 -- 2/5/2021 3:06:25 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: couple of questions about scrap, upgrade and replace - 2/5/2021 10:15:40 AM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
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1. Recruiting back doesn't necessarily cost you extra, but I see what you mean and I agree.

2. Heh, those 1 metal 1 IP grunts are indeed worthless, aren't they !

(But yeah, it would be nice if it didn't work per model...)

3. Because you might actually want to keep the old model around to kick non-aligned ass and bully minors ? (Or even in the most desperate situations, send it immediately back to the main front again.) Rinse and repeat once the new recruits have been trained.

But it would be nice if instead there were options to :
- send recruits to the unit and keep the old vehicle there (if the unit still has space left), therefore avoiding double waste of logistic points and waste of readiness.
- auto-scrap the old vehicle (speaking of which, where is the subunit scrapped, and where do the items go ? If not to the closest zone, but to the SHQ, does scrapping cost logistic points even if it doesn't need them ?)

(in reply to yutowap33)

Post #: 2

RE: couple of questions about scrap, upgrade and replace - 2/6/2021 2:55:51 PM

BlueTemplar

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Joined: 4/29/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: yutowap33
2. Upgrading seem to auto scraps the old equipment in return 50% of old equipment cost, however that calculated per unit model, thus due to rounding it means that if you upgrade 100 grunts recruited at the cost of 100IP+100metal you get 0 refund. But if you recruit 100 grunts at the cost 200IP+200Meal you get 100IP+100Metal.

Actually, where did you get this idea, what have you tried to upgrade those grunts to ?

quote:

5.10.12. uPGradInG trooPs
[...]
The cost is the difference of the cost between the two Models + 33% of
the cost of the new Model (excluding recruits though).

Is the manual wrong/obsolete ?

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 2/6/2021 2:56:58 PM >

(in reply to yutowap33)

Post #: 3

RE: couple of questions about scrap, upgrade and replace - 2/6/2021 7:56:16 PM

yutowap33

Posts: 71
Joined: 11/1/2017
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I assumed its 50% because that what scrap function says, I haven't actually tested it, that why i wrote 'seem'.

I did test that the cost of upgrade lvl1 troops (1IP 1Metal) to anything else is the same as building new ones, while costlier unit do get some discount, whether it's 50%, 33% or something else it doesn't matter just determine how frequent the rounding issue will show i.e. if it's 33% then your best return would be on troops that cost 3/3, 6/6, 9/9..

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 4

RE: couple of questions about scrap, upgrade and replace - 2/6/2021 8:30:59 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
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I think you mean 3/3, 6/6, 9/9... extra, so 4/4, 7/7, 10/10 in your example ? (Or even 4/7, 10/4, &c.)
EDIT : No, you're right, it's not 33% of the difference, but of the new model's cost.

And it's not a discount, but a penalty (probably indeed rounded up than down ?)

Now, let's see if I have any examples at hand...

Yeah, ok, so, upgrading :
- a 1/1 to a 1/3 costs... 1/3
- a 3/4 to a 2/2 costs... 1/1
- a 3/4 to a 5/6 costs... 4/4

We get :
(1-1)+1/3 = 1 : 1/3 has been rounded up to 1
(3-1)+3/3 = 3 : exact fraction
(2-3)+2/3 = 1 : 2-3 = -1 has been set to 0, 2/3 has been rounded up to 1
(2-4)+2/3 = 1 : 2-4 = -2 has been set to 0, 2/3 has been rounded up to 1
(5-3)+5/3 = 4 : 5/3 has been rounded up to 2
(6-4)+6/3 = 4 : exact fraction

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 2/7/2021 9:40:10 AM >

(in reply to yutowap33)

Post #: 5

RE: couple of questions about scrap, upgrade and replace - 2/6/2021 8:31:22 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: yutowap33

> Scrap - Returns soldiers to population and recovers 50% of equipment construction cost.

1. Why scarp returns soldiers to population instead of recruitment pool? that just extra cost for troop upgrade, and we already have an option to return recruits to population through colonization option.

>Upgrade - Replace unit equipment, works for infantry units
>Replace - Same as Upgrade for other units.

2. Upgrading seem to auto scraps the old equipment in return 50% of old equipment cost, however that calculated per unit model, thus due to rounding it means that if you upgrade 100 grunts recruited at the cost of 100IP+100metal you get 0 refund. But if you recruit 100 grunts at the cost 200IP+200Meal you get 100IP+100Metal.

3. The purpose of replacement seem to make production more realistic, so we have to utilize older models. But it works exactly the same as Upgrade just with extra step as first you have to buy a whole new unit (and no auto scraps the old equipment.) Why the extra step, why it can't do it for me?

1. I doubt there is any particular reason, other then "did not come around to change that yet".

2. Fractional math is always a problem. Especially if you do not want to deal with the uggliness that are floating point numbers.
A simple fix is to just multiply all deposits, production and costs by 10.

3. I pointed that one out as well. There is a small difference - that it costs twice the Logistics points - but really Upgrade is more a mater of convenience then a actually rules difference: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4940295

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 2/6/2021 8:32:15 PM >

(in reply to yutowap33)

Post #: 6

RE: couple of questions about scrap, upgrade and replace - 3/22/2021 5:18:24 PM

BlueTemplar

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Joined: 4/29/2010
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Unlike what the manual says, Infantry units can be replaced too !

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 7

RE: couple of questions about scrap, upgrade and replace - 3/22/2021 6:47:56 PM

BlueTemplar

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Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

I think you mean 3/3, 6/6, 9/9... extra, so 4/4, 7/7, 10/10 in your example ? (Or even 4/7, 10/4, &c.)
EDIT : No, you're right, it's not 33% of the difference, but of the new model's cost.

And it's not a discount, but a penalty (probably indeed rounded up than down ?)

Now, let's see if I have any examples at hand...

Yeah, ok, so, upgrading :
- a 1/1 to a 1/3 costs... 1/3
- a 3/4 to a 2/2 costs... 1/1
- a 3/4 to a 5/6 costs... 4/4

We get :
(1-1)+1/3 = 1 : 1/3 has been rounded up to 1
(3-1)+3/3 = 3 : exact fraction
(2-3)+2/3 = 1 : 2-3 = -1 has been set to 0, 2/3 has been rounded up to 1
(2-4)+2/3 = 1 : 2-4 = -2 has been set to 0, 2/3 has been rounded up to 1
(5-3)+5/3 = 4 : 5/3 has been rounded up to 2
(6-4)+6/3 = 4 : exact fraction

Sadly, the above doesn't seem to always work :
Upgrading 2 to 7 : (7-2) + 7/3 = 7.33 : should have been 8, but in practice it ends up as 7.
Upgrading 3 to 14 : (14-3) + 14/3 = 15.67 : should have been 16, but in practice it ends up as 14.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 8