RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 9:35:07 PM

rkr1958

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

SEP/OCT 1939 Commonwealth

The program default is - as Centuur says - really poor. The furthest oil from the UK is being sent to Glasgow to be saved, all other oil is used in production (transported to the UK), except the Burma oil which sits idle..... I suspect a lot of work is going to be needed to make an AI even remotely capable.

It's useful to have the unused convoys box ticked here so as I stop the more extreme and wasteful convoy routes, so I see the convoys appear on the map becoming available.

So, first things first. I know I want some oil saved this turn and what I don't save I want to be the closest to the UK to save convoys.

So Burma oil is saved in Rangoon
NEI oil x 2 is saved in Singapore
Persia oil is saved in Amman

I only need 21 factories producing because of the production modifier to get the maximum 11 BP.

I now have 11 BP but only 4 saved oil. It is not obvious where I can get the fifth saved oil from. Ah - but then I see it. There are spare convoys from West Africa to South America. I can use these to get a South African resource to the UK (together with the convoys that transported the oil from Port of Spain to the UK - but won't be now doing so). Port of Spain oil is saved in place instead.

I have now achieved Centuur's nos. I quickly check the French and they too are okay. I'd never thought of keeping the unused convoy screen open when doing this before. It really helps!

Well done grasshopper! Though I like to propose an alternate. Really a question, that only each player can answer for themselves. What's more valuable, an additional BP or two additional oil saved to the UK at this point in the game?

I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer to this. But pose it for consideration.

I would also like to point out that my alternate could be modified to give full production and save an additional oil to the UK. All one would have to do would be to move the 2 of the 3 oil saved to the UK (e.g., Glasgow & London) to production.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 2/19/2021 9:37:04 PM >

_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 61

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 2:30:32 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Though I like to propose an alternate. Really a question, that only each player can answer for themselves. What's more valuable, an additional BP or two additional oil saved to the UK at this point in the game?

I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer to this. But pose it for consideration.

warspite1

Hi rkr1958 - no there absolutely isn't a right or wrong answer (please see sentence in bold in post 58). I generally like swimming in oil as it provides a comfort zone. But between you two you've shown two ways to get the best results for the CW and either approach may be adopted.

And that is what this thread is all about*; given the convoys in place, how can I be sure I am maximising income (oil and/or BP) rather than losing out because of limitations of the program allied to my inability to spend an entire day trying to make it work (even if I knew how)....

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I would also like to point out that my alternate could be modified to give full production and save an additional oil to the UK. All one would have to do would be to move the 2 of the 3 oil saved to the UK (e.g., Glasgow & London) to production.

warspite1

Are you sure this is doable without losing the French point from French Indo-China? I can't get down to 3 idle CW resources that you show without removing this point from French income, because I have nothing surplus in the Arabian Sea (which is why I have the two Malayan resources as idle).

So unless I've missed something this is another trade-off for the Allies to consider. One additional oil for the CW, but at the expense of a BP for France.

* LOL - this thread isn't designed to show players how to maximise income - but is doing just that! Bonus

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/20/2021 3:05:49 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to rkr1958)

Post #: 62

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 4:10:34 AM

rkr1958

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Though I like to propose an alternate. Really a question, that only each player can answer for themselves. What's more valuable, an additional BP or two additional oil saved to the UK at this point in the game?

I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer to this. But pose it for consideration.

warspite1

Hi rkr1958 - no there absolutely isn't a right or wrong answer (please see sentence in bold in post 58). I generally like swimming in oil as it provides a comfort zone. But between you two you've shown two ways to get the best results for the CW and either approach may be adopted.

And that is what this thread is all about*; given the convoys in place, how can I be sure I am maximising income (oil and/or BP) rather than losing out because of limitations of the program allied to my inability to spend an entire day trying to make it work (even if I knew how)....

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I would also like to point out that my alternate could be modified to give full production and save an additional oil to the UK. All one would have to do would be to move the 2 of the 3 oil saved to the UK (e.g., Glasgow & London) to production.

warspite1

Are you sure this is doable without losing the French point from French Indo-China? I can't get down to 3 idle CW resources that you show without removing this point from French income, because I have nothing surplus in the Arabian Sea (which is why I have the two Malayan resources as idle).

So unless I've missed something this is another trade-off for the Allies to consider. One additional oil for the CW, but at the expense of a BP for France.

* LOL - this thread isn't designed to show players how to maximise income - but is doing just that! Bonus

I was able to get the extra oil to the CW without the French losing a BP. Here's how I did it:

Change major power to France. Default the Hanoi and Keyes RP to French factories and the (TR) Mosul oil to Beirut. This get France to their max production for the turn and allows them to save their 1 oil.

Now change major power to the CW. Save the two (TR) NEI Oil to Singapore. Save the (TR) Persia oil to Suez and the Burma oil to Rangoon. I then saved the the Port of Spain oil in place. This got the CW to full BP production. But after looking at the unused CPs I noticed that I had a route that should get the Port of Spain oil to the UK. I defaulted that oil be saved to Glasgow an confirmed that France was still at 5 BPs.

Again, if one believe that saving two more oil to the UK is worth a BP then they could change the 2 of the Venezuelan oil used for production at Glasgow to being saved at Glasgow.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 2/20/2021 4:13:35 AM >

_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 63

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 4:11:54 AM

rkr1958

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Attached is a save of the convoy routing for the CW and France for the pervious post.

Attachment (1)

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Ronnie

(in reply to rkr1958)

Post #: 64

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 4:39:50 AM

warspite1

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I am really feeling stoopid at the moment but I can�t see how you are getting 11 BP and more oil than Centuur or I got.

Pending rkr1958 clarifying, I want to move on with the game. The next phase is oil reorganisation. This moves away from the convoys but is all to do with production and, as said previously, there has been problems with oil. So I'd like to run through this too.

But before moving away from this first stab at the convoys here are three useful things I have learned:

Preliminary Production Planning

1. Don't close down any major power until you are happy that all is as it should be

2. Do the powers in order of convoy complexity

3. Start planning with the oil you may want to save and have the unused convoy map ticked as open as you go through the various resources and oil.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/20/2021 8:07:44 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to rkr1958)

Post #: 65

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 8:13:36 AM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 39 - OIL REORGANISATION

GERMANY

First off a question. The top portion of the picture is from the oil reorganisation (OR) screen.

The bottom portion is from the preliminary planning (PP) screen.

The PP is as it should be. The Germans started with 3 oil and saved one this turn = 4. The saved one this turn from the trade agreement, I understand, can't be used to reorganise.

But why do the Germans have the option to spend the two German oil resources on reorganisation in the OR? These were sent to production in the planning phase and so should be unavailable for reorganisation no?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/20/2021 8:20:53 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 66

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 8:28:53 AM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 39 - OIL REORGANISATION

GERMANY

Question answered. I tested it out and used one of the oils to reorganise and the BP duly dropped by one from 15 to 14 and the Action/Destination boxes confirm why.

MIGHT BE NICE TO HAVE A WARNING IN THAT OIL REORGANISATION BOX TO REMIND PLAYERS THAT IF THEY ARE USING OIL RESOURCES (RATHER THAN SAVED OIL) THAT MAY AFFECT PRODUCTION.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/20/2021 8:40:02 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 67

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 10:42:03 AM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 39 - OIL REORGANISATION

So the reorganisation should be straightforward. The Germans used one from Berlin and the CW one from Bombay. All other powers either didn't have anything to reorganise or limited their reorganisations to save precious oil at this stage of the game.

Finalise Production

Germany

All seems good. Looking at Saved Oil Points, the saved at start (start must refer to this phase) shows 2 - and this must be the 3 saved at the start of the game less the one used in the OR phase. So controlled is now 3 and includes the saved oil from the PP phase. There are still 15 BP so all is WAD.

Italy

I don't bother showing this. There are 2 BP and 2 controlled oil and is correct as per the PP (1 saved) + OR (no oil spent).

Japan

Ditto for Japan. There are 10 BP and 6 controlled oil and again, is correct as per the PP (2 saved) + OR (no oil spent).

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/20/2021 10:55:30 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 68

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 10:56:22 AM

warspite1

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Finalise Production

China

No need to show China - 5 BP and No change to the 1 oil from the start of the game.

Commonwealth

The CW all seems fine. The Saved Oil Points section shows 2 oil saved at start of this phase (in Manchester and Coventry). This is the three oil the CW started with less the 1 oil (Bombay) used up in the OR. The five remaining oils are those saved in the PP stage - Amman, Rangoon, Port of Spain and Singapore x 2.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/20/2021 11:02:27 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 69

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 11:05:01 AM

warspite1

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Finalise Production

France

All good here to. 1 oil saved at start plus the one saved in Beirut (no oil used in reorganisation) and 5 BP.

United States

No need to display - 3 oils rising to 4 and 11 BP all as per PP and OR phases.

USSR

Ditto with the Soviets. 3 oils rising to 4 and 8 BP as it should be.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/20/2021 11:30:38 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 70

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 11:56:55 AM

warspite1

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Trade Agreements

Two trade agreements have been set up:

CW - France - 4 resources (inc 1 oil)
CW - China - 1 resource (inc 0 oil)

Anyone know what the significance of the bottom box is, and what, if anything, I should be doing with it at this stage?

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 71

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 12:47:10 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Trade Agreements

Two trade agreements have been set up:

CW - France - 4 resources (inc 1 oil)
CW - China - 1 resource (inc 0 oil)

Anyone know what the significance of the bottom box is, and what, if anything, I should be doing with it at this stage?

I don't. This is too much information, where I'm concerned, because everything comes back to the big unknown: which convoys are where after the last impulse of the turn.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 72

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 8:14:04 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Trade Agreements

Two trade agreements have been set up:

CW - France - 4 resources (inc 1 oil)
CW - China - 1 resource (inc 0 oil)

Anyone know what the significance of the bottom box is, and what, if anything, I should be doing with it at this stage?

I added the bottom panel showing the program's current best guess as for which resources will be used to fulfill the selected (in the top panel) trade agreement.

I expect this form to only be used for setting up Lending Agreements, so the choice of resources etc. is likely to change as the turn progresses and the player moves/loses convoys and control of resources.

===

When I created/added the bottom panel, I was trying to debug some problems with production planning.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 73

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 8:22:46 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I added the bottom panel showing the program's current best guess as for which resources will be used to fulfill the selected (in the top panel) trade agreement.

I expect this form to only be used for setting up Lending Agreements, so the choice of resources etc. is likely to change as the turn progresses and the player moves/loses convoys and control of resources.

===

When I created/added the bottom panel, I was trying to debug some problems with production planning.

warspite1

Okay thanks Centuur and Steve. I'll try and get turn 2 progressed tomorrow so that we can look at Nov/Dec End of Turn in the next few days.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 74

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/20/2021 8:23:14 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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When using oil to reorganize units, using Oil Resources OR Saved Oil Points can take that oil away from production (or total saved oil).

For example, if you have both German Oil Resources marked to be saved (in Preliminary Production) and then you use one of them for reorganization, only one will be saved.

Likewise, if you have 2 of the 3 German Saved Oil Points being used in production, and then use two of them for reorganizing units, only one of them will remain to be used in production.

===

NOTE that you cannot use oil points being received as part of a trade agreement (e.g., the Venezuela oil) to reorganize units. That is an Australian Design Group rule decision. It often frustrates new players.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 75

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/21/2021 6:14:28 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

When using oil to reorganize units, using Oil Resources OR Saved Oil Points can take that oil away from production (or total saved oil).

For example, if you have both German Oil Resources marked to be saved (in Preliminary Production) and then you use one of them for reorganization, only one will be saved.

Likewise, if you have 2 of the 3 German Saved Oil Points being used in production, and then use two of them for reorganizing units, only one of them will remain to be used in production.

warspite1

See post 67. I suggested a warning could be added to the box. This wouldn't need to be added only if the situation applied - it would be a permanent, standard wording to remind players to be careful that they don't upset their best laid plans from the preliminary planning stage.

===

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

NOTE that you cannot use oil points being received as part of a trade agreement (e.g., the Venezuela oil) to reorganize units. That is an Australian Design Group rule decision. It often frustrates new players.

warspite1

Same with this. How about something like this? Just another tip to avoid potential player frustration and aiding with rule understanding.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/21/2021 6:17:04 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 76

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/21/2021 12:38:14 PM

Joseignacio

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Centuur or rkr:

Are you using the 4.XX version of the game or the 3.2X?

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 77

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/21/2021 5:02:38 PM

paulderynck

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Judging from the saved game file that was posted, they are using version 4.2.1.1 in Solitaire mode.

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Paul

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Post #: 78

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/21/2021 9:07:34 PM

Centuur

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As beta tester, I always use the latest version given to us by Steve. That's 4.2.1.9 in my case...

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Peter

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Post #: 79

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/21/2021 10:10:46 PM

Joseignacio

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Thanks for the info.

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 80

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/22/2021 6:55:37 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Warspite, how's this?

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 81

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/23/2021 3:55:33 AM

warspite1

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Hi Steve - that's great. Just a couple of suggested amendments. Could we say (amendments suggested underlined):

"Oil received in trade this turn can't be used to reorganize units and isn't listed here. If 0.5 or less of an oil point remains, the entire oil point must be expended. Oil fully expended to reorganize units can't be be saved or used in production and so may affect your preliminary production planning".

I don't know whether there is space for this but just wanted to make the latter point in particular clear. This would stop a player thinking the program was at fault if he/she suddenly lost a build point or two between PP and finalisation - and not realising that oil usage in reorganisation can affect that planning.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/28/2021 12:40:30 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 82

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/23/2021 7:06:49 PM

AllenK

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A great masterclass plus good idea from Warspite1 and response from Steve on the additional text as a warning.

Due to the potential production impact, I am always cautious about sending oil to production. Generally only when I have a healthy surplus and/or can anticipate low oil use.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 83

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/25/2021 5:10:08 PM

warspite1

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Right so NOV/DEC 1939 played through so at the weekend I will do the end of turn run-through. Nothing majorly different, but Germany lost an oil to Strat Bombing (and got its Baltic convoys back up and running) and the CW added 2 convoys to the Arabian Sea which may make a difference iirc. I am particularly interested in the oil counter.

The idea is not to get swamped with lots of different things every turn, but instead a steady ramp up of demands on the program as more trade agreements come into play for BP, oil and resources - more losses start to hit convoy lanes and more strat bombing (I'll either introduce Italy in JAN/FEB or MAR/APR 1940).

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/25/2021 5:15:27 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to AllenK)

Post #: 84

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/27/2021 10:03:02 AM

warspite1

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Nov/Dec 1939
Preliminary Planning

Germany

So Germany first and all looks good. The Saved Oil Points (Saved at Start) = 3 in Berlin and this is as per the position last turn.

The German factories are fully up and running and they can save an oil and get 16 BP. However, the Germans want to build up a bit of a stock of oil for the future (they saved nothing in the first turn due to the loss of the Swedish convoys).

So in addition to the one being saved, they add a second one. Adding a second saved oil drops the BP to 15. But because of the rounding up/down mechanism, a third oil can be saved that keeps the BP at 15. Germany chooses this.

The Germans lost an oil to strat bombing and this is reflected. All 6 oil are being saved in Berlin.

Italy

I don't bother to show this. This is all good. 1 oil is being saved again. So 2 at the start saved in Milan will be joined by a third this turn. 2 BP are available.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/27/2021 10:18:45 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 85

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/27/2021 10:19:14 AM

warspite1

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Nov/Dec 1939
Preliminary Planning

Japan

The program reverts Japan back to the default that it did on the first turn. This means that the two NEI oil are being saved in Japan/Manchuria, meaning that the Hainan resource can't be transported to a factory. This is annoying. QUESTION to Centuur and rkr1958
Is there someway of stopping the program from doing this?

I switch the oil so that it is saved in Canton and the Hainan resource can now be transported overseas. All is good here too. There are 6 oil saved at the start and 2 oil added to this. Japan has 10 BP.

I close the three Axis PP screens.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/27/2021 10:26:50 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 86

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/27/2021 10:37:25 AM

warspite1

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Nov/Dec 1939
Preliminary Planning

China

Right, China is receiving a non-oil build point from the CW this turn. It has also lost a resource to strat bombing and another to enemy zone of control (EZOC).

So the form is telling me that the Chinese have 7 resources plus 1 from the CW = 8. Take away the point lost to EZOC = 7 less one lost to strat bombing = 6. This gives 3 BP to China and no additional saved oil.

However, the CW appears to be sending its resource all the way from Coventry which takes up 7 convoys.... we don't want that. This potentially destroys the CW convoy program.

QUESTION TO Centuur and rkr1958: What are the steps required to amend the source of this resource?

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/27/2021 10:41:57 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 87

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/27/2021 10:58:27 AM

warspite1

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Nov/Dec 1939
Preliminary Planning

China

Pending a response I will see if I can make this work.

The resource provided by the CW should come from Malaya or India. There appears to be no continuous land route so assume a convoy(s) will be required.

I have a convoy in the South China Sea that can take the resource from Larut in Malaya to Hanoi and then overland to a factory.

I don't close China but switch to the CW. I click on the Larut resource and then the 'Trade' radio button.

A message comes up:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/27/2021 11:02:24 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 88

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/27/2021 11:05:02 AM

warspite1

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Nov/Dec 1939
Preliminary Planning

China

As instructed, when I click on the top row in the table (the blue line under Non-oil Larut) I get another box. This seems to ask me which country I want this resource traded with - France or China. I pick China:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/27/2021 11:06:41 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 89

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/27/2021 11:11:12 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

Nov/Dec 1939
Preliminary Planning

China

I now get this message which is counter-intuitive. China? Yes. Production? Yes. In Place? What? What am I supposed to click now?

I ignore 'In Place' and decide to click recompute....