RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/7/2021 10:03:42 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Question for Centuur and rkr1958

So on the first impulse of the Jan/Feb turn the Italians join the war and get lucky with attacks on the Allied convoys in the Med.

When something like this happens what action (if any) do you as the Allied player take?

My immediate thought would be to start checking the PP screens and seeing what effect the convoy loss has had. However, I am (rightly or wrongly) loathe to play around too much with the PP screen at this time because the program seems quite temperamental and sensitive to changes out of time.

Keen to know your thoughts please so that I can then do the next Allied impulse.

What I usually do is to see how much of the convoy line can be repaired, using surplus convoy points (and you have a lot of those now). Of course, you can look into the production planning form, but I would not make any changes to production at this stage. That's because next Axis impulse, the Axis might invoke more losses of convoys and that might mess up the changes you've made again.

warspite1

So, if not using the PP form, do you use a spreadsheet or some other tool to help you work out what needs to go where to maximise (as well as possible) production?

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 121

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/7/2021 4:33:30 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Question for Centuur and rkr1958

So on the first impulse of the Jan/Feb turn the Italians join the war and get lucky with attacks on the Allied convoys in the Med.

When something like this happens what action (if any) do you as the Allied player take?

My immediate thought would be to start checking the PP screens and seeing what effect the convoy loss has had. However, I am (rightly or wrongly) loathe to play around too much with the PP screen at this time because the program seems quite temperamental and sensitive to changes out of time.

Keen to know your thoughts please so that I can then do the next Allied impulse.

What I usually do is to see how much of the convoy line can be repaired, using surplus convoy points (and you have a lot of those now). Of course, you can look into the production planning form, but I would not make any changes to production at this stage. That's because next Axis impulse, the Axis might invoke more losses of convoys and that might mess up the changes you've made again.

warspite1

So, if not using the PP form, do you use a spreadsheet or some other tool to help you work out what needs to go where to maximise (as well as possible) production?

I use the global map to give me the active Allied convoys.

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Peter

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 122

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/7/2021 6:05:13 PM

Courtenay

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When I was first working out the Allied convoys, I used a spreadsheet, but once I got them, I haven't touched the spreadsheet in years.

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Post #: 123

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/12/2021 12:37:06 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
During the Turn

Right so the Italians are in the war and used their surprise impulse to good effect. The Allied convoys in the Eastern (3) and Western Mediterranean (3) and (2) convoys in Cape St Vincent have been destroyed or aborted.

So what, as the Allied player, do you need/want to know now? Well the obvious things are:

- What is the effect on my BP and Oil at the end of the turn?
- Do I have CP I can use to replace those lost?

- Do I want to simply replace them? Italy is in the war so do I re-route the convoys or continue to take my chances?

How good are the in-game tools at being able to provide a player with key information to help plan their response to the losses?

The obvious place to look first is the production screen for the CW and France (and China as resources are being sent there).

However, what I don't want to do is start playing around with the PP forms at this stage of the game. This may be wrong, but from previous experience I think they are too temperamental and run the risk of blowing up the game.

However, I can't see any harm in just getting information. So this is what I'm told:

A quick look at the tables show everything is fine and I'm getting more BP than last turn. However, that is because the Production Multiple went up at the start of 1940.

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/12/2021 1:07:10 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Courtenay)

Post #: 124

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/12/2021 1:12:57 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
During the Turn

A closer look at the PP shows that there is 1 more idle resource for the CW and 1 more for the French. The Chinese are unaffected.

Considering the number of convoy points lost this is not disaster, but it still represents points lost. So if I don't want to start fiddling with the PP screen and I don't want to muck about with spreadsheets what is the best way of trying to maximise convoys between now and the end of the turn?

It's a shame there is not a way to view unused convoys on the Global Map. Equally, unless I've missed it, its also a shame that the Production Planning Reference (Players Manual Vol.2 P.231) isn't available in the Global Map.

Unfortunately this doesn't come out very well when downsized.

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/12/2021 1:44:12 PM >

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Post #: 125

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/12/2021 1:47:08 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
During the Turn

I am going to assume for this example that the Allies decide its too risky to keep the Mediterranean convoy lanes going. Anything coming from east of Suez will need to find its way around the Cape of Good Hope (South Africa).

So it strikes me that the first thing I need to do is to work out where my excess convoys markers are. I go to Info and Units In Game and select the CW and Convoy. Maybe something the Allied player should do right from the outset when setting up the game.

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/13/2021 8:41:15 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 126

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/12/2021 2:23:59 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
During the Turn

Having not wanted to use a spreadsheet....I use a trusty but simple spreadsheet. These numbers tie up with the PP screens.

Note: The unused are not all necessarily available as some of those in port would have been aborted convoys from the Italian attack in the previous impulse. But I don't need to worry about that yet.

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/13/2021 8:42:21 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 127

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/12/2021 2:27:37 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
During the Turn

So the next question is: what are the resources that have suddenly turned idle as a result of the convoys being sunk/aborted?

Well we have idle:

France - 2 (Hanoi - French Indo China), (New Caledonia)
Commonwealth - 4 (Malaya), (Kimberley - South Africa), (Broken Hill - Australia), - (Newcastle - Australia)

Of these, it was the Hanoi and Kimberley resources that have no longer got a route as a result of the loss of the convoys.

So we can forget for the moment about the Australian and New Caledonian resources, and see if we have enough unused convoys in port to move to where they are needed to form a convoy pipeline to the UK/France.

The below is taken from the PP screen (again I am just viewing and not making any amendments to this screen at this point in the game).

What can we tell from this. Well first of all I can remove a Red Sea convoy (I will keep one for supply purposes I think - unless someone tells me otherwise).

But it also tells me that to get the FIC resource to France I need a convoy in the Bay of Bengal, Mozambique Channel, Cape Basin and Cape St Vincent. If I look at my spreadsheet above, I can see that I have unused convoys:

- 1 in Bombay I can put into the Bay of Bengal
- 2 in Cape Town that I can put into the Mozambique Channel and Cape Basin.
- 1 in Gibraltar I can put in Cape St Vincent.

This will restore the French point lost.

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/13/2021 8:43:49 AM >

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Post #: 128

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/13/2021 3:19:56 AM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
During the Turn

During the naval impulse for the CW I start putting the convoys to sea as per the above and , eh voila, the French Hanoi resource is back in use at a French factory.

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/13/2021 8:44:41 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 129

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/13/2021 3:23:01 AM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
During the Turn

So can I get the South African resource back in play? The resource is carried by rail to Banguella I believe, and so I need to have a continuous supply line only from the Gulf of Guinea, through Cape Verde and then Cape St Vincent (I already have surplus in the Bay of Biscay).

Again I look at my spreadsheet and I can see I still have unused convoys points in Gibraltar, Cape Town and Durban that I can use to fill these slots.

The convoys are restored and the dangerous route through the Med is no longer necessary.

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/13/2021 8:45:45 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 130

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/13/2021 3:33:52 AM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
During the Turn

What I need to do is remember to spread out some of the convoys in Rekjavik/Plymouth to ensure that as many sea boxes are covered for future use.

I don't want to do this yet because the u-boats may inflict yet more pain.

Of course there are three CW resources idle (and 6 factories). One school of thought it to try and maximise every last resource - but that has the danger of thinning out the convoy assets, leaving insufficient spare to repair broken routes. Another is to not maximise necessarily, but to keep plenty in reserve to cover u-boat strikes.

Until I have more convoy points available, that is the plan adopted here.

I must also keep my spreadsheet updated!

Note to Centuur and rkr1958: Is there anything in the above you disagree with or would do more economically?

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/13/2021 8:49:11 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 131

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/13/2021 10:47:56 AM

Centuur

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It depends on the chance that the turn might end. If it's late in the turn, I will maximize the convoy lines to get maximum production. If not, well there's another impulse coming for me, so why sail those convoys out to sea at this time.

Of course, the CW needs to build 3-4 convoy points every turn...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 3/13/2021 10:48:25 AM >

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Post #: 132

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 6:32:43 AM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

So a limited turn - due to the weather. The Germans have gained the Netherlands but fell short of attacking Belgium as the weather closed in.

The Italian oil expenditure has been high as the fleet was put to sea.

There was just one bit of successful strategic bombing - the Germans losing a point to the CW.

No Partisans - but I will introduce them into the mix next turn.

Germany

All is almost as it should be. But the program has not optimised the return for Germany.

The program saves 3 oil and has all other oil and non-oil resources given over to production. However, because of the rounding up/down mechanism I can save a 4th oil and still maintain 15 Build Points.

The Germans started the turn with 5 oil - all saved in Berlin. It receives 6 oil and four are now saved.

I am going to save 3 oil in Berlin and the 4th in Lodz.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/20/2021 6:45:25 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 133

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 6:52:34 AM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

Italy

Italy started with 3 oil, all in Milan. The program continues to save the oil from Romania, giving the Italians 4 oil and 3 build points.

However, with Italy now in the war and German trade not coming on tap until next turn, I decide to put the oil to production and the effect of the production modifier is to then increase the Build Points to 4.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 134

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 6:57:56 AM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

Japan

And so to Japan.

Japan has 8 saved oil from last turn and that is reflected here so all good.

But, there are two idle resources so I need to check what that is all about. Note: the Japanese have gained a resource in China this turn.

I check the unused convoys and can see that the China Sea is probably now requiring a convoy. However I also suspect that the NEI oil is part of the problem again.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/20/2021 7:04:03 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 135

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 7:20:42 AM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

Japan

Sure enough the NEI oil remains a problem as it keeps reverting to Mukden as its saved destination. I change to Canton again and one of the idle resources starts producing.

However I still have one idle resource - and plenty of unused convoys now. So why can't I use this newly acquired resource?

I look at the resource 'causing the problem'. The Japanese control the hex and the hex northeast. There is a rail line leading to the port of Shanghai and Japan owns all the hexes.

I assume the issue is the part underlined below:

Transporting Resources By Rail (Extract from RAC Page 100)

This move does not count as a rail move and the resource does not have to start its move at a station.

The move can only pass through:
- Hexes you control;
- Hexes in neutral minor countries; and
- Hexes controlled by another major power, but only if it allows you.

Allied major powers (except the USSR) may only trace resources through Soviet controlled hexes while the USSR is at war with Germany.

The resource�s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

QUESTION: IS THIS WHAT IS STOPPING THE RESOURCE, HAVING ENTERED THE HEX IN EZOC (even though there is a friendly units in that hex), FROM LEAVING IT?

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/20/2021 7:32:05 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 136

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 7:33:41 AM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

QUESTION: IS THIS WHAT IS STOPPING THE RESOURCE, HAVING ENTERED THE HEX IN EZOC (even though there is a friendly units in that hex), FROM LEAVING IT?

Yes.

Rule edit will follow shortly.

Cut from RAC 13.6.1 Resources
.....
The resource�s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex.
Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can
be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

< Message edited by Orm -- 3/20/2021 7:36:04 AM >

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Post #: 137

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 2:24:29 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

China

Nothing to show here. China still has its 1 oil saved. It has 6 resources plus the CW non-oil resource from Larut, Malaya. No resources idle.

USA and USSR

Ditto these two. Both are saving the maximum 1 oil while neutral (both up to 6) and no idle resources for the USSR and 1 idle (Philippines) for the US.

France

France too does not need to be shown. Its position is as per post 129.

Commonwealth

However the Commonwealth's data has changed from Post 130. This is all fine and reflects that the Netherlands were attacked by Germany. The changes are:

a) The oil resources controlled have jumped from 3 to 7
b) Oil trade sent has increased from 1 to 3
c) Non-oil Resources have increased by 1 to 22

What has happened here is that:

a) the Dutch East Indies were subject to an incomplete conquest and the four oil are now Commonwealth controlled.

Trade received drop by two from 6 to 4. This is because the two NEI oil are included in the 'controlled' section above.

b) Trade sent increases by 2 because the two Dutch East Indies oil that are sent to Japan now appears here as the oils are controlled by the CW

c) There is a non-oil resource in Dutch Guyana. This resource has used part of the route that the Kimberley resource used when I calculated what I needed mid-turn. The South African resource is now idle (note: the program has actually changed the idle resource to Ndola but it is of no consequence.

So CW idle non-oil resources are back up to 4, but the BP and oil saved has not altered.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/20/2021 2:59:18 PM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 138

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 3:09:45 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

Finalise Production

Germany

1 Oil was used by Germany. The form confirms that 4 were saved at the start (5 less the 1 used in oil reorganisation) and that with 4 saved this turn, the German stockpile is 8. 7 of these are in Berlin and 1 in Lodz.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/20/2021 3:19:08 PM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 139

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 3:20:31 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

Finalise Production

Italy

Houston we may have a problem. I will come back to Italy once I've finished this phase and I've been able to look at the oil reorganisation phase again.....

Edit: Phew = no problem! I thought I had used two oil to reorganise but I only used on and so these numbers are all correct.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/20/2021 4:01:58 PM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 140

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 3:24:42 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

Finalise Production

Japan

All good with Japan. No oil was used to reorganise and so she keeps the 10 oil as per the Preliminary Production Phase.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 141

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 3:32:45 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

Finalise Production

China

All good with China - nothing to report.

Commonwealth

The Commonwealth Saved At Start seems wrong. The CW had 10 oil at the start of the turn and saved 5 = 15. 3 oil were used in reorganisation. Now it could be something to do with the fact that 2 oil used to reorganise were from Singapore, but I would have expected 'Saved at Start to be 10 - 3 = 12.

As said, I expect that this is what it would show had I used, for example the Manchester and Coventry oil. When I check Italy I will try this out.

Ultimately though, the CW has the right number of oil - 12 - at the end of the turn.

France

All good and as expected. No oil expended and so saved oil increases to 4.

United States and USSR

As previously discussed, all good one extra oil saved each.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/20/2021 3:35:37 PM >

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Post #: 142

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 4:05:18 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

Finalise Production

Commonwealth

Yes, it appears that my guess was right. So when I used previously saved oil (in the UK and Burma) the Saved at start reduces by 3 but the controlled increases by 5 - which is the 5 I saved this turn. So we still come out at 12. It reduced by only 1 in the previous screen because I used a controlled oil resource this turn. I guess I can now do this because the oil is not coming to the CW under a Trade Agreement and so can be used this turn.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/20/2021 4:07:27 PM >

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Post #: 143

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/20/2021 4:08:41 PM

warspite1

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Jan/Feb 1940
End of Turn

Okay for this next turn I've added a German Trade Agreement with Italy and will be adding in some partisans.

Comments welcome as ever on any glaring errors or whatever.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/20/2021 4:09:25 PM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 144

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/27/2021 2:26:17 PM

warspite1

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Mar/Apr 1940
End of Turn

So we get to the end of the March/April 1940 turn and are at Production Planning. At the end of the last turn a Trade Agreement was set up so that Germany gives 3 resources (including 1 oil) to Italy.

Also at the end of the last turn, the Germans had 8 oil saved - 7 in Berlin and 1 in Lodz. This was checked to what was on map and all was okay.

But a look at the Preliminary Production form shows something potentially a little odd. The Saved at Start shows just six oil - 5 in Berlin and 1 in Lodz. Why?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/27/2021 2:36:19 PM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 145

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/27/2021 2:41:59 PM

warspite1

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Mar/Apr 1940
End of Turn

First thing is to check if the Controlled figure is correct.

Germans start this phase with: 8

They have 6 oil incoming: 2 from Romania, 2 from the USSR and 2 on their own territory.

So before looking at oil reorganisation, production or trade etc, the Germans should have 14 oil at the end of this phase - not the ten showing.

But while we don't know what will be used in oil reorganisation, we do know 1 oil is going to Italy and, at the moment, 1 oil is being used for production. So that means that 4 oil are being saved. So why is German oil not showing as:

Saved at Start: 8
Controlled (i.e. the four saved): 12

Here is a screenshot of the map to prove that I am not going mad and there are 8 German oil saved. And please see post 139 to confirm that 8 were actually saved last turn and so should be the German's opening number of Saved at Start oil.

So what has the program done with two German oil?

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/27/2021 2:58:16 PM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 146

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/28/2021 9:13:22 AM

warspite1

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Mar/Apr 1940
End of Turn

I think the best thing to do is play through the rest of the turn for Germany and Italy only, and see what happens. There is a disconnect between what oil is showing on the map and what the production screen thinks the Germans have.

It's a shame I don't have a screenshot of the moment the program went awry. I will remember to take regular screenshots at the end of this turn to see if it does it again, when did the problem occur.

Germany

So the first thing I do is to increase the German production. Instead of saving 4 oil, I decide to save only 3 oil and so get another Build Point.

Doing this does something weird to the Saved at Start number. This now moves from 6 to 7 (remember it should be 8 anyway). In moving this number, the Controlled total has not changed from 10 (remember this should now be 11 (before the oil reorganisation phase)).

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/28/2021 10:56:59 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 147

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/28/2021 10:05:17 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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Mar/Apr 1940
End of Turn

Italy

I now move to Italy. Italy had 2 saved oil in Milan and this is showing correctly on the Saved at Start. Controlled also shows 2 because, at present, the Italians are using both oil it receives (1 from Romania and 1 from Germany) in production.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 148

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/28/2021 10:09:57 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

Mar/Apr 1940
End of Turn

Italy

The Italian navy is using a lot of oil so I will amend this to save both oil in Milan.

So all looks in order for Italy.

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/28/2021 10:10:29 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 149

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 3/28/2021 10:17:36 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

Mar/Apr 1940
End of Turn

Germany

So now we come to oil reorganisation for Germany. And this is what I see....

The 7 German saved oil in Berlin are showing, as is the oil in Lodz, plus the Austrian oil. This should all be correct. The 3 oil saved this turn was from trade and so can't be used to re-organise this turn. The German oil is being used to send to Italy. So this screen is correct - and makes the PP screen difference even more baffling.