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Tojo Choices - 2/25/2021 11:55:57 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		I usually move as rapidly as possible to the Frank but am curious as to what players think of the various models of Tojo? Which do you prefer and why? Which are mediocre and not needed?

Just curious for some thinking and feedback.


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RE: Tojo Choices - 2/26/2021 12:00:28 AM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline 		Well, this is an advice for all IJ players. You don’t need Tojos, nor the Franks. Just stick to the Nates, it’s good enough. You also have enough in the pool, so just shut all factories offline.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 2
RE: Tojo Choices - 2/26/2021 12:55:47 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Well, this is an advice for all IJ players. You don’t need Tojos, nor the Franks. Just stick to the Nates, it’s good enough. You also have enough in the pool, so just shut all factories offline.


+1

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Post #: 3
RE: Tojo Choices - 2/26/2021 1:38:51 AM   
Dan1977

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 1/28/2021
Status: offline 		John 3rd,
The Tojo & Frank have different uses. The Tojo II's are fast climbing, short range interceptors, good for CAP. The Frank has longer range, better firepower, better durability, but poor serviceability. The Oscar & Frank would be the IJA's offensive weapons (escorts, sweeps, fighter-bomber, etc), while Tojo is for defensive purposes. This is similar to the Navy's Jack vs. George question.

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Post #: 4
RE: Tojo Choices - 2/26/2021 9:26:53 AM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I usually move as rapidly as possible to the Frank but am curious as to what players think of the various models of Tojo? Which do you prefer and why? Which are mediocre and not needed?

Just curious for some thinking and feedback.



Do what you always do, move as fast to the Frank as possible. First Tojo version, then Frank.

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RE: Tojo Choices - 2/27/2021 1:33:15 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

First Tojo version


No. Need the one with all heavy MG's. JMHO.

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RE: Tojo Choices - 2/27/2021 10:12:42 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

First Tojo version


No. Need the one with all heavy MG's. JMHO.


When you get the -c version, you will have all Franks. Service rating aside, in every aspect compared to the Frank, the Tojo sucks. If people use Tojos, Oscars and Zeroes instead of Frank, George or Jack then they will play more historically but also take more losses. To each his own.

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RE: Tojo Choices - 2/27/2021 11:23:07 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		Tojo excels as a frontline CAP fighter in midwar, especially if you put research into the last model. It is marginally worse than Frank-a (-2 maneuver, 12.7 instead of 20mm, -15 mph) but it stays in the air while Frank begs to be shipped away via rail for R&R after a couple engagements. The downside is that Tojo research is wasted for late war, when Frank-r remains competitive.

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Post #: 8
RE: Tojo Choices - 2/27/2021 2:42:08 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I don't like the Tojo at all.

I've always researched and produced it, but I came to the conclusion that's not really useful.

If you put factories on the Tojo, you're taking them away from the Frank and it's the Frank-R the plane you want.


What Tojos are capable of, Oscars can somehow do. Same goes with A6M*s.


I'm a great proponent of producing some of the initial Tojos (Ki-44-IIa Tojo), which arrive in Sept-42 and that's it. They are useful as sweepers, yeah, but they become obsolete after mid-43.


Bottom line is this: Tojos help you a lot in 1943 if they don't meet the most advanced enemy fighters. However, you don't really need them since what can be achieved using Tojos, can be achieved using other planes such as the Oscars or the Zeros.
In my current PBEM, I decided to skip them for good.

Should be noted that without them you have a higher casualty rate in 1943, but that's life.

Another relevant aspect is that the Oscars can be used fairly well as multi-role in late game, while Tojos are very short-legged. Heavy MGs are just rubbish, also: they down enemy planes, yes, but you really need those 20mm guns against the heavies/most resistant ones.

Last, but not least, if you build thousands of them, once they become obsolete you just let them dust in warehouses, while Oscars can be used until the last day of the war in many roles. In a PBEM I produced literally thousands and thousands of Tojos because I had the (wrong) impression the allies would have done a major operation in 1943 and Frank would have arrived too late: had over 4.500 in the pool in Jan-44... Not good.


And don't let me speak about the downsides of its climbing rate if you run low-level CAPs.....


I think many will find my position wrong, though. It's quite heterodox.

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RE: Tojo Choices - 2/27/2021 8:29:12 PM   
Ambassador

 

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Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline 		After my earlier tongue-in-cheek answer, here’s a more serious one, from the POV of a mostly (over 90%) Allied player.

The two first models are mostly equal, by the time you field them, I have P-40K for CAP, and can use P-38 for Sweeps. Their meager weaponry is insufficient to reliably kill the latter, and even the former is well-protected (with 30 Durability and 1 Armor) : the 7.7mm CL peashooters won’t do much, so it’s down to a pair of wing-mounted 12.7mm. I get a lot of damaged P-40K, but most survive, and will often retaliate before leaving the fight (and 6 .50 MG will kill a Tojo half the time when they hit). So, I’m usually not afraid to see Tojos arrive. However, Oscars are notably weaker, the difference being mainly their much lower speed, and my PBEM opponent said that, had he not developed the Tojo and built a lot of factories, he would have had to concede the air war in ‘43 altogether.
Also, if I know a base has Oscars and no Tojo or Zeroes, I can ponder the use of the CV’s Wildcats - but against Tojos, F4F are at a disadvantage.

The third variant is useless. The 40mm cannon has a short range, and as the plane is as fragile as the previous versions, it rarely gets in range of the 4E heavies to use the cannons - and forget about hitting anything smaller or more agile than a B-24.

The one good version is the fourth, with four 12.7mm, but by the time you get it, the Allied receives the first P-47. The increased firepower is rendered nul by the increased durability, and the speed disadvantage. However, and again, the alternative, the Oscar, is so totally obsolete by then, as it’ll face not only P-47 from the USAAF, but also Hellcats from the USN.

So, from my POV, if you want to drop the Tojo and use the Oscar, I’m fine. The Tojo sure is not a wonderful plane, but at least it’s much closer match to the Allied planes (in an agile, fragile & lightly armed versus an armored over-gunned flying brick type of comparison). Well, by Allied, I really mean US - because that’s where Tojos can make a difference, against the Brits. I find them noticeably superior to the Hurricanes, and the quality improvement of the Brit fighters is slower than for the US fighters.

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 10
RE: Tojo Choices - 2/27/2021 9:52:20 PM   
jdsrae


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

When you get the -c version, you will have all Franks.



I skipped the Tojo IIb in my current PBEM to get the armoured IIc.
I’ll have to check when the IIc started production for me but it feels like I’ve had it for at least six months, so maybe late 1942.
Frank-A had 12x research factories on it from day 1 and started production about June 43.
I don’t think my game would have gone well if I had to rely on Oscars and unarmoured Tojos instead of Tojo IIc for the last 6 months.
I would have lost more IJA pilots KIA rather than just WIA.

I’ve used the Tojo almost exclusively in Burma/Bengal and they do very well against the RAF, and with veteran pilots can hold their own against USAAF P40K/N and P38s.

But now it is nearly Aug 43 and P47s are flying, so the Tojo is being replaced by Franks as quickly as possible.


< Message edited by jdsrae -- 2/27/2021 10:00:41 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Tojo Choices - 2/28/2021 1:49:21 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

First Tojo version


No. Need the one with all heavy MG's. JMHO.


When you get the -c version, you will have all Franks. Service rating aside, in every aspect compared to the Frank, the Tojo sucks. If people use Tojos, Oscars and Zeroes instead of Frank, George or Jack then they will play more historically but also take more losses. To each his own.

+1

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Post #: 12
RE: Tojo Choices - 2/28/2021 1:53:05 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

I don't like the Tojo at all.

I've always researched and produced it, but I came to the conclusion that's not really useful.

If you put factories on the Tojo, you're taking them away from the Frank and it's the Frank-R the plane you want.


What Tojos are capable of, Oscars can somehow do. Same goes with A6M*s.


I'm a great proponent of producing some of the initial Tojos (Ki-44-IIa Tojo), which arrive in Sept-42 and that's it. They are useful as sweepers, yeah, but they become obsolete after mid-43.


Bottom line is this: Tojos help you a lot in 1943 if they don't meet the most advanced enemy fighters. However, you don't really need them since what can be achieved using Tojos, can be achieved using other planes such as the Oscars or the Zeros.
In my current PBEM, I decided to skip them for good.

Should be noted that without them you have a higher casualty rate in 1943, but that's life.

Another relevant aspect is that the Oscars can be used fairly well as multi-role in late game, while Tojos are very short-legged. Heavy MGs are just rubbish, also: they down enemy planes, yes, but you really need those 20mm guns against the heavies/most resistant ones.

Last, but not least, if you build thousands of them, once they become obsolete you just let them dust in warehouses, while Oscars can be used until the last day of the war in many roles. In a PBEM I produced literally thousands and thousands of Tojos because I had the (wrong) impression the allies would have done a major operation in 1943 and Frank would have arrived too late: had over 4.500 in the pool in Jan-44... Not good.


And don't let me speak about the downsides of its climbing rate if you run low-level CAPs.....


I think many will find my position wrong, though. It's quite heterodox.

yeah, you hit the nail on the head here; it isn't that Tojo isn't good or bad. Tnhe reality is that in '42 and early '43 you don't need it as the allies have so few fighters and your A6M is more than a match for all of them. Oscar can do escort service and then you get Frank , which along with George will dominate well into '44.

So, not that Tojo is bad, but not really worth the expense when you can put that investment into Frank/George ....

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Post #: 13
RE: Tojo Choices - 2/28/2021 2:15:32 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

When you get the -c version, you will have all Franks.


Not quite. I can get the -c by Aug '42 (IIRC). Not so with Franks.

quote:

Tojo excels as a frontline CAP fighter in midwar, especially if you put research into the last model. It is marginally worse than Frank-a (-2 maneuver, 12.7 instead of 20mm, -15 mph) but it stays in the air while Frank begs to be shipped away via rail for R&R after a couple engagements.




quote:

The downside is that Tojo research is wasted for late war, when Frank-r remains competitive.


Too some degree. Myself I prefer to get my more advanced fighters just when needed to oppose Allied improvements.

quote:

What Tojos are capable of, Oscars can somehow do.




quote:

I'm a great proponent of producing some of the initial Tojos (Ki-44-IIa Tojo), which arrive in Sept-42 and that's it.


I get the -c before that, and I don't skip models. Yes, I research the -b. Don't produce it, but research it to conclusion.

quote:

had over 4.500 in the pool in Jan-44... Not good.


That's a huge mistake for any early war plane.

quote:

The one good version is the fourth, with four 12.7mm, but by the time you get it, the Allied receives the first P-47.


I get it by Aug-42, I don't think the P-47 is around that early.

quote:

Frank-A had 12x research factories on it from day 1 and started production about June 43.


I got the plane with only 3x research factories on it from day 1 and started production in Aug-43. Engine bonus, ya know. I figure next game to add two more factories and get it by June.

quote:

I don’t think my game would have gone well if I had to rely on Oscars and unarmoured Tojos instead of Tojo IIc for the last 6 months.


IMHO, that's an understatement.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to jdsrae)
Post #: 14
RE: Tojo Choices - 2/28/2021 2:32:40 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

reality is that in '42 and early '43 you don't need it as the allies have so few fighters and your A6M is more than a match


Not quite. I prefer to get my Army planes more heavily involved ASAP. Besides the early Zeros have an air-frame that's too light. You need the M5. The Allies can simply use their fighter destroyer 4E's (their best fighters early on) to shred the Zero's and Oscar's. Not that the Tojo will stop the 4E's, but they will hold their own, especially with numerical advantages.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 15
RE: Tojo Choices - 2/28/2021 2:34:37 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

George ....


BTW, these I got in my current game in Mar-43.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 16
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