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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 12:49:56 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		Well Silly is an allied only player.
I have played both sides.

You do not move all your UK forces that is for sure. Normally I have the following:

2 armor, 1 mech, 5 to 6 inf corps in France.
Airforce on the coast of the UK to help if needed.

Africa has 3 to 4 corps...2 will be small, maybe 3 as you have to take Syria quickly as you know...

UK has a handful of 2 or 3 corps and divisions all over every port.

Then along with the 50% exp French you snipe damaged German Corps.

Not sure if much can happen in Africa. When one my corps gets crippled and won't be able to fight again it heads to the UK or Africa.

BOA is a different story. I always lose there no matter what I do unless as the Axis I get out the German and Italian fleets...then a different story for a little while. But that is nearly impossible if you have a good Allied player.

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 61
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 1:15:50 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline 		My plan as an Ally:

Uk helps France a little with: 3 tanks / 2 mechanized / 4 Corps / 1 HQ

In Uk only divisions in each port (but empty those that are out of reach for Axis)

In Africa 6 Corps and 2 divisions

France builds 1 tank and infantry

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 62
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 2:09:37 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		Comadre and myself can do the same battle we did the last time to see what the Axis / Allies are able to do.

I have no problem doing that and will happily AAR the whole thing.

And will gladly take any input you may have to try to "break" the process or try crazy things to get around it...

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 63
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 2:14:54 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline
quote:

Comadre and myself can do the same battle we did the last time to see what the Axis / Allies are able to do.

I have no problem doing that and will happily AAR the whole thing.

And will gladly take any input you may have to try to "break" the process or try crazy things to get around it...



Sure it will be fun, but surely short like last time (:

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 64
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 4:10:12 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

My plan as an Ally:

Uk helps France a little with: 3 tanks / 2 mechanized / 4 Corps / 1 HQ

In Uk only divisions in each port (but empty those that are out of reach for Axis)

In Africa 6 Corps and 2 divisions

France builds 1 tank and infantry


I have a new idea. I will go for a Barbarossa 1940. Perhaps I will have more luck.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 65
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 4:11:32 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

quote:

Comadre and myself can do the same battle we did the last time to see what the Axis / Allies are able to do.

I have no problem doing that and will happily AAR the whole thing.

And will gladly take any input you may have to try to "break" the process or try crazy things to get around it...



Sure it will be fun, but surely short like last time (:


Thanks guys, please do an AAR.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 66
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 5:33:16 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

My plan as an Ally:

Uk helps France a little with: 3 tanks / 2 mechanized / 4 Corps / 1 HQ

In Uk only divisions in each port (but empty those that are out of reach for Axis)

In Africa 6 Corps and 2 divisions

France builds 1 tank and infantry


I have a new idea. I will go for a Barbarossa 1940. Perhaps I will have more luck.


I'll play allies if you like

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 67
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 7:10:46 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

My plan as an Ally:

Uk helps France a little with: 3 tanks / 2 mechanized / 4 Corps / 1 HQ

In Uk only divisions in each port (but empty those that are out of reach for Axis)

In Africa 6 Corps and 2 divisions

France builds 1 tank and infantry


I have a new idea. I will go for a Barbarossa 1940. Perhaps I will have more luck.


I'll play allies if you like


Thanks but no, I will stop playing new Axis games in PBEM, finishing the current ones of course, and do a little pause by playing hotseat/AI. I am doing my current AAR for ComadrejaKorp and others to criticize what I am doing.

I don't find the solution to win in France. But, honestly, thanks a lot ComadrejaKorp for learning me all these new tactics:
. Infinite naval bombardment from ships in port to counter attack from Calais or from Dunkerque
. Carrier based planes bombarding panzer corps to reduce their efficiency with success
. Fleet sacrificing itself to force ground and tactical air planes to intercept
. Deadly counter attack with infantry only or infantry plus armor shattering panzer corps.

You have really master the game.

I am now a deadly Allies player as well but I feel sad for my current Axis opponent. I have already shattered him three panzer corps. The last one I can see in front of me is at 6-10. He is no where near Paris, Rouen, Metz and we are turn 24 meaning July 19th, 1940. He has three turns to finish me but I think this is impossible.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 68
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 7:33:58 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I am now a deadly Allies player as well but I feel sad for my current Axis opponent. I have already shattered him three panzer corps. The last one I can see in front of me is at 6-10. He is no where near Paris, Rouen, Metz and we are turn 24 meaning July 19th, 1940. He has three turns to finish me but I think this is impossible.


Well my Axis opponent has just resigned our game. I hope he is not too upset and will retry playing.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 69
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 9:59:34 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline 		This issue that has been highlighted may or may not a "game issue" ...... Question is whether this is a "game" issue or merely a tactic which if attempted historically could have changed the course of events ....

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 70
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 10:01:29 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

This issue that has been highlighted may or may not a "game issue" ...... Question is whether this is a "game" issue or merely a tactic which if attempted historically could have changed the course of events ....



Though in fairness, not much fun once the axis units are basically toast even IF they take France .... which I did not

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 71
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/25/2021 10:37:33 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

This issue that has been highlighted may or may not a "game issue" ...... Question is whether this is a "game" issue or merely a tactic which if attempted historically could have changed the course of events ....


If Germans can't take France without being emasculated, it's a game issue. Whether or not it would work in an alt history world, that's a separate issue for another thread :)

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 72
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 1:17:49 AM   
MorningDew

 

Posts: 1170
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline 		I do not believe that the British had the ability to field the forces as outlined above in 1940. I've recently re-read Churchills series. I don't think this was feasible:

Uk helps France a little with: 3 tanks / 2 mechanized / 4 Corps / 1 HQ
In Uk only divisions in each port (but empty those that are out of reach for Axis)
In Africa 6 Corps and 2 divisions

_____________________________


(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 73
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 1:31:19 AM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

I do not believe that the British had the ability to field the forces as outlined above in 1940. I've recently re-read Churchills series. I don't think this was feasible:

Uk helps France a little with: 3 tanks / 2 mechanized / 4 Corps / 1 HQ
In Uk only divisions in each port (but empty those that are out of reach for Axis)
In Africa 6 Corps and 2 divisions

quote:

In Uk only divisions in each port (but empty those that are out of reach for Axis)


Agreed. That is the issue we are outlining.

The UK actually sent just 11 infantry divisions over to France. 1 armor brigade and 500 or so aircraft.


(in reply to MorningDew)
Post #: 74
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 11:46:37 AM   
MorningDew

 

Posts: 1170
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline 		And my point is that they only sent that many to France because they were struggling to field a larger army in 1940. They had to ensure home defense and worry about Egypt. The ability to field that much that early is not historical.

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Post #: 75
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 1:35:28 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline
quote:

And my point is that they only sent that many to France because they were struggling to field a larger army in 1940. They had to ensure home defense and worry about Egypt. The ability to field that much that early is not historical.


Correct, we have agreed to send 11 UK divisions (infantry) to France, the result will be that in the Middle East in August 1940 Allies will have a force of 3 tanks / 2 mechanized / 7 full force Corps.
What is your opinion on this ? It also seems exaggerated, doesn't it?
The next step would be to limit forces that can be sent to the Middle East, and the end result would be that the SeaLion option would disappear because UK will be full of troops.

I only expose a possible problem.

(in reply to MorningDew)
Post #: 76
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 2:46:04 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		So what? Limit the number of PP for UK at start? With Patrol Grp costing 330 PP, it is sure this is better to buy a tank at 360 PP...

And, if you want to increase the cost of tanks, it means Germany is also penalized.

I am sure there is another solution.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 3/26/2021 2:48:48 PM >

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 77
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 2:54:16 PM   
Jeff_Ahl

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 10/10/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

quote:

Limit the number of labs for UK and for France? In 1940,


Sounds like a really cool idea to me! And a more real solution than mine, Uk can help France as much as he wants but pay a high price!


Thanks my idea like this is for the UK player to choose between naval, air or land technology but not all like today.
They want Heavy Armor 1940 and Interceptor 1941 for doing a good France 1940, fine but they won't have Convoy Escort or Detection & Electronics right away.

And for France, limit them as well to barely max out only one technology. Anti-Tank 1940 fine but no Interceptor 1940.

Just an idea.



+1

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 78
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 3:01:41 PM   
Jeff_Ahl

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 10/10/2018
Status: offline 		UK always field unhistorical huge army. They had severe manpower issues, conscription came to late but in this game you can spit out corps in a manner that would never been possible. Limit the manpower for UK and Canada.

(in reply to Jeff_Ahl)
Post #: 79
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 3:20:54 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff_Ahl

Limit the manpower for UK and Canada.


The last time I suggested this, everyone was against me.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4952399

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Jeff_Ahl)
Post #: 80
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 3:31:04 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline 		The trouble with this in game terms is that it changes the balance of the game rather than solving this particular problem.
One can say the same of Germany fielding more armoured corps in France '40 than were deployed at the start of Barbarossa despite the fact that the '41 TOEs had a lot fewer tanks.

This is a game not a simulation so we should stop trying to turn it from a great game into a poor simulation. WP was never designed to be a simulation so it will never be a good one.

After all there is a very simple way of completely solving UK spam in France - limit the numbers which can be sent. No need to changing the balance anywhere else.

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Jeff_Ahl)
Post #: 81
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 3:34:58 PM   
Jeff_Ahl

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 10/10/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff_Ahl

Limit the manpower for UK and Canada.


The last time I suggested this, everyone was against me.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4952399


Can not understand why. It is a quick easy fix. One thing that always been strange with this game. You can have several Army Groups with UK and Canada. They where never near that IRL and would never have been able either even if all production would been focused...because of the manpower issues.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 82
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 4:53:05 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline
quote:

After all there is a very simple way of completely solving UK spam in France - limit the numbers which can be sent. No need to changing the balance anywhere else.


So far the SillyFlower solution seems to be working fine in our current game.

Although this does not mean that there is another better solution.

< Message edited by ComadrejaKorp -- 3/26/2021 4:54:26 PM >

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 83
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 4:56:05 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline
quote:

Question is whether this is a "game" issue or merely a tactic which if attempted historically could have changed the course of events ...


I like your approach!
If we are really starting with the correct data on the production capacity and experience of the troops in the different countries, it was the Allies who failed, not us. (:


(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 84
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 6:01:17 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

This is a game not a simulation so we should stop trying to turn it from a great game into a poor simulation. WP was never designed to be a simulation so it will never be a good one.


Totally agree, I don't want a simulation. I think we are searching a correct balance. The game is great.

Alvaro once said that he would like a fun and balanced game until the end, which is 1945.
With the "All In" strategy, this is game over for the Axis in 1940.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 85
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 6:07:47 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Modest proposal: if folks think the allies can be too easily gamed here to make France difficult, switch over to the 1940 scenario which avoids this. German OB is practically the same as it would be otherwise. France should fall by early July at the latest at reasonable cost.

The Western Allies in general are a bit weaker in this scenario and Britain will have to scramble a bit to cover the middle east. The Soviet OB has some interesting differences and will be a somewhat stronger than otherwise, to balance things out. Both sides start their tech research from scratch, as per the 39 start, so some research is lost here.

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(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 86
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 6:17:11 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline
quote:

Modest proposal: if folks think the allies can be too easily gamed here to make France difficult, switch over to the 1940 scenario which avoids this


It is the quickest and most logical solution, without a doubt.Thanks.

But since we are addicts, I believe that nobody wants to give up a year of war, or the pleasure of building your own army.

I never played this scenario, I should try it.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 87
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 6:17:31 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

quote:

After all there is a very simple way of completely solving UK spam in France - limit the numbers which can be sent. No need to changing the balance anywhere else.


So far the SillyFlower solution seems to be working fine in our current game.


Silly, how do you translate that in game rules? How to limit the numbers which can be sent?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 88
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 6:23:18 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I personally like the 1940 scenario a lot and think it is better balanced and leads to a more historical game. I don't think I'll be playing the 39 scenario anymore. Not in PBEM. Too much min maxing and cheese going on.

_____________________________

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(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 89
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/26/2021 7:09:47 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		ncc...

What ComadrejaKorp and myself will be doing in the future is 11 divisions can be sent to France...all must be Infantry.
NOW that does not help Africa...but one step at a time.

When I play Silly he only sends about that many...but he likes to sneak in a Mech unit...and in the game we are in took shattered one of mine with it as I forgot to leave it a retreat. The again the retreats for German armor might be at issue...not that I heard there was a change. But I lost 3 so far in this new version and they have spots to retreat, just did not. And I do not use hold on panzer. But we will see if that is just bad luck.

I think the fix would be tougher...it would have to be something forcing the UK to garrison units in the UK and Egypt.
Not sure if you can set that at a "level" like that or it is just units. Though what would be the penalty if you broke this?

The 1940 scenario might work. Would be willing to test it.


(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 90
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