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RE: The Suez Channel is blocked

 
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RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/26/2021 8:26:35 PM   
gamer78

 

Posts: 536
Joined: 8/17/2011
Status: offline 		Hmm. I've spent half a dozen years in Cairo. Went to War museum as a far as I remember in the early 90's. Gamal Abdel Nasser was very respected about Suez. Passed Suez to northern Nile to Aswan 1 time through canal which was very very narrow. I think they didn't enlarge canal for farmlands.



(in reply to Rising-Sun)
Post #: 31
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 10:56:09 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

Back in the day we used to say "If WWIII breaks out, the Suez Canal is not a place you want to find yourself..."


Actually, if war breaks out period, the Suez Canal is not a place you want to find yourself. Witness the dilemma of the Yellow Fleet.

quote:

Between 1967 and 1975, fifteen ships were trapped in the Suez Canal after the Six-Day War between Israel and Egypt. The ships became known as the Yellow Fleet because of their appearance from desert sand swept onboard.

During the war, Egypt blocked both ends of the canal to prevent its use by Israel. Scuttled ships, sea mines, and other debris continued to block transport through the canal until the wake of the Yom Kippur War, after which the blockade was lifted. A 1974 clearance operation enabled the ships to leave, after eight years of being stranded.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet

In early 1975, the Suez Canal was once again opened for international transport, and on 24 May 1975, the German ships Münsterland and Nordwind finally reached Hamburg port, cheered by more than 30,000 spectators. They were reportedly the only ships to have returned to their home port under their own power. For the Münsterland this was the end of a voyage to Australia which had lasted eight years, three months and five days


One of the German ships had a cargo of eggs and fruit. What a mess.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 32
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 11:37:27 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

Back in the day we used to say "If WWIII breaks out, the Suez Canal is not a place you want to find yourself..."


Actually, if war breaks out period, the Suez Canal is not a place you want to find yourself. Witness the dilemma of the Yellow Fleet.

quote:

Between 1967 and 1975, fifteen ships were trapped in the Suez Canal after the Six-Day War between Israel and Egypt. The ships became known as the Yellow Fleet because of their appearance from desert sand swept onboard.

During the war, Egypt blocked both ends of the canal to prevent its use by Israel. Scuttled ships, sea mines, and other debris continued to block transport through the canal until the wake of the Yom Kippur War, after which the blockade was lifted. A 1974 clearance operation enabled the ships to leave, after eight years of being stranded.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet

In early 1975, the Suez Canal was once again opened for international transport, and on 24 May 1975, the German ships Münsterland and Nordwind finally reached Hamburg port, cheered by more than 30,000 spectators. They were reportedly the only ships to have returned to their home port under their own power. For the Münsterland this was the end of a voyage to Australia which had lasted eight years, three months and five days


One of the German ships had a cargo of eggs and fruit. What a mess.

Among the current pile-up there are at least 10 ships with live animals onboard. If they don't uncork the Canal is going to be messy.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 33
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 1:54:34 PM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		Might be time to take a cue from the Pixar movie Up.



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Post #: 34
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 3:59:12 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Looks like semiconductor shortage will be worsened by this:
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-suez-canal-ship-affects-semiconductor-shortage-2021-3?IR=T

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 35
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 4:36:18 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Looks like semiconductor shortage will be worsened by this:
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-suez-canal-ship-affects-semiconductor-shortage-2021-3?IR=T

Here in Italy they are predicting a shortage in... toilet paper. We just can't have a break - in the most literal sense.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 36
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 4:40:13 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		It will and may have already caused problems for the "Just In Time" inventory system for many places. I wonder how much air freight is flying small, lightweight but important goods. I also wonder if the Siberian Railway is being used as a new Northern Silk Road.

Expect some shortages and price increases of the good affected.

I think that they have to get a lot of those containers removed. That will provide a lot of work for truckers. I don't know if the ports in the area can offload other ships and then move the goods by truck and/or rail to a port and then load onto another ship. I don't think that there is rail transit from the Gulf of Aquaba through Israel/Jordan to Turkey to Europe otherwise that would be an option. Iraq to Turkey then on to Europe as well. But that would also be a lot of trains and if the gauges are different . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 37
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 5:04:59 PM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		Everything north of the blockage should be able to turn around and get back out, they are all at the Great Bitter Lake. There are two parallel waterways to the north of the lake. To the south there is only the original cut so they run batches of ships in convoy 'one way' at a time.

However, it's obviously the case that for all of those ships which were mid-journey and expecting to use the canal, they are now suddenly faced with the significant additional time and cost - whether they choose to wait things out at either end of the blockage, or whether they choose to take the long Cape of Good Hope route instead. And for any ships which were carrying livestock or perishable items, the additional repercussions might be very significant too.

Any ships choosing to switch to the round-Africa route will also almost certainly need to put into port somewhere en route to take on additional fuel. This will incur additional delay. Plus, there are some crew contracts that will have to be re-negotiated if they expect these ships to remain manned.

Also, whether the affected ships sit it out near the canal until it's over or whether they take the longer alternative route, there will now be serious logistical knock-on effects. These same ships will have been booked to collect new cargoes on specific dates, all of which will very likely now need to be rearranged - and that's nowhere near as easy as it might sound. Plus, the receivers of the goods which are currently being carried by these ships will now have to rearrange the delivery logistics. And many ports around the world will face associated logistical difficulties.

I keep going back to thinking: how can this have been allowed to happen? After all, we're all now seeing the very serious repercussions of it having happened. Any competent risk assessment should, long ago, have implemented mechanisms to minimize to near-zero the chance of this sort of occurrence, plus it should have put in place effective provisions to fix things if it did somehow happen.

And it's hardly as if there were freak and extraordinary conditions behind this incident. We're told that there were pretty strong winds. The geography of the Gulf of Suez, the Med, and the Sinai means that there are very often pretty strong winds in this area.


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Post #: 38
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 5:25:40 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		But these really large container ships only happened in the past ten years when they doubled in size. The wind speeds were only 31 mph or something like that. What they might need is auxillary engines and screws in the front for maneuvaring which might have help the bow of the ship from running into the sand.

There are new places where the ships can go both ways, traffic management will have to plan frantically for the movement of all of the waiting ships when the do get the stuck one moving. Bring up some barges with cranes to start offloading some of the container to lighten the load. Where is the Zeppelin fleet when you need it?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 39
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 5:59:15 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Status: offline 		https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/container-ship-stuck-suez-canal-funny-tweets-172846369.html

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Post #: 40
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 7:02:15 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		It's funny because i expected the canal to be a little wider than that. Never seen it in real life. Is the Panama canal bigger?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 41
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 7:14:56 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist
I keep going back to thinking: how can this have been allowed to happen? After all, we're all now seeing the very serious repercussions of it having happened. Any competent risk assessment should, long ago, have implemented mechanisms to minimize to near-zero the chance of this sort of occurrence, plus it should have put in place effective provisions to fix things if it did somehow happen.

I'm re-reading, of all things, "World War Z" by Max Brooks, and just today I stumbled into the following passage:

"Most people don’t believe something can happen until it already has. That’s not stupidity or weakness, that’s just human nature."

While it is referred to the zombie apocalypse, this sentence is spoken by a fictional Israeli character as a general commentary on human nature. I think that he is right.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 42
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 7:20:18 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		From the west locks called Pedro Miguel to the first lake/river it's about the same. Then on the east end for a short distance the same again. But more of the Panama Canal is lake than the Suez. It's not nearly as long either I don't think.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 3/27/2021 7:21:00 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 43
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 7:35:13 PM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

It's funny because i expected the canal to be a little wider than that. Never seen it in real life. Is the Panama canal bigger?


When it opened, the Suez Canal was only 25 feet deep, 72 feet wide at the bottom, and 200 to 300 feet wide at the surface. Obviously, it's been widened a great deal since then.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 44
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 7:36:52 PM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		Since 1956 it's really been a work in progress.


(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 45
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 7:59:14 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Thanks, interesting. So, they will have to increase it once more it seems.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 46
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 9:30:11 PM   
gamer78

 

Posts: 536
Joined: 8/17/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

That looks wild. I've been through the Suez Canal a few times.

I can remember in 1981 seeing destroyed armor along the way side but in 1983 it seemed much more tidy. Perhaps it was my viewing times Machinist's Mates don't get too much time topside.

The crew manning fire hoses to keep the locals off was always mandatory for smaller naval vessels...


Back in early 90's Turkish military attaché informed us while we're in Cairo about Sinai Arab&Israeli War tank ruins. -they were training Egyptian army- Back in those times internet was very slow not as today. Now everything can be found in internet very fast.

< Message edited by gamer78 -- 3/27/2021 9:31:37 PM >

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 47
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 9:36:59 PM   
uncc


Posts: 448
Joined: 6/1/2002
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		This article has an update. It shows this image:



which gives you an idea of just how stuck this ship is...

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Post #: 48
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/27/2021 10:51:01 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		It looks like they should dig out the stern but also keep it from moving while they lighten the load up front. Then pull it backwards to free it.

So considering the bottom it ran into, there is probably very little hull damage that would have to be repaired in a dry dock.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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Post #: 49
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/28/2021 2:47:47 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		They are concerned that unloading my cause the ship to become unstable and break in half. Wouldn't that be a mess!

But they have to do something.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 50
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/28/2021 3:50:00 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		It would depend upon how they unload the cargo. Starting at the middle clearing that off would be a problem but if the load were taken off from all over, only one level at a time, that should help.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 51
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/29/2021 12:01:48 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

Might be time to take a cue from the Pixar movie Up.




Or maybe somebody has a really big toilet plunger?

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Post #: 52
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/29/2021 1:23:12 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Since it is stuck in the muck, a suction expert has done the math and determined that it would take 80 of the best tugs the world has to offer to pull it free. Since this is impossible to orchestrate, they went thru the other options and there really is nothing they can do, which is why they aren't doing anything.

It seems that the 200,000 ton weight of the problem is beyond current technology, so they will have to invent something.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 53
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/29/2021 1:58:39 AM   
arvcran2

 

Posts: 2170
Joined: 12/11/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: uncc

This article has an update. It shows this image:



which gives you an idea of just how stuck this ship is...


Did not read the article, but I wonder what retains the canal floor; is it swept to clear sediment from blown sand and other things?

I agree with RJ on getting the screw and guide end free.

Other considerations are water current (assuming there is any), and wind.
Raising the water level (if there are locks to facilitate), could also help.

Would not want to be the captain of that ship.

Other than ground obstruction what would cause it to steer astray? Rudder control failure? Autopilot error? Computer systems hack? I honestly thought it was a "fake news" story.

Also curious to know what that violet 'Base Line' is all about.

(in reply to uncc)
Post #: 54
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/29/2021 2:16:32 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		It was thought sand blown in was the main cause of the canal filling with sediment. Turns out it was the ships themselves. That was discovered during the several year shut down during the war. No locks on the Suez.

It has been reported that wind caused low visibility. To get a ship that big to turn takes forever. Once it started heading for the sand I imagine it was all over but the swearing.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 3/29/2021 2:21:50 AM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to arvcran2)
Post #: 55
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/29/2021 2:28:48 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Here's the most recent from BBC.

It has been stranded since Tuesday, after running aground and becoming lodged sideways across the waterway. At first a gust of wind was thought to be to blame .

'Our customers are worried about the Suez blockage'
Extra tugs join effort to dislodge Suez Canal ship
How do you refloat a giant cargo ship?

The wind speed at the time was recorded at 40 knots, but the Suez Canal Authority (SCA) told reporters that this is not the only reason for the ship becoming stranded.

An investigation would be needed to determine whether technical or human errors occurred, the authority added.

As of Sunday, there were 369 ships stuck in a tailback waiting to pass through the 193km (120-mile) canal on either side of the blockage.

On Saturday, 14 tugboats pulled and pushed the Ever Given at high tide to try to dislodge it and were able to move the ship "30 degrees from left and right".

The SCA said in a statement that dredgers had so far shifted 27,000 cubic metres of sand, to a depth of 18m (59ft).

"The rudder was not moving and it is now moving, the propeller is working now, there was no water underneath the bow, and now there is water under it, and yesterday there was a 4m (13ft) deviation in the bow and the stern," SCA's chairman General Osama Rabie told Egyptian state TV.

However, in a possible complication, SCA sources quoted by Reuters news agency said that a mass of rock had been discovered under the bow of the ship.

Sunday's attempt to free the Ever Given was postponed - according to the SCA, the next favourable times for refloating the ship will be during high tide, at 11:42 local time (09:42 GMT) on Monday and early Tuesday morning at 00:08.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 3/29/2021 2:32:19 AM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 56
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/29/2021 2:47:03 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Think of a semi-tractor and boxed trailer with a wind coming from the side. They can and will be blown over, they will get tired and lay on their side. All of those shipping containers will act like a sail and with them tightly packed, little air can flow through/around them.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 57
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/29/2021 10:38:56 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		hurry - my paper toilet stockpile is decreasing.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
Post #: 58
RE: The Suez Channel is blocked - 3/29/2021 2:02:29 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/29/africa/suez-canal-refloating-intl-hnk/index.html

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 59
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