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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 12:57:21 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		T20 AGS:

Kharkov is being threatened with isolation. Kursk is too. Dnepropetrovsk is isolated and now so is Zaporozhye. Just waiting for frost to be able to reduce the pockets. The Crimea is solidly in the hands of the Rumanians backed up by the Italians.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 12:57:53 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		T20 Soviet Garrison:

It is currently sitting at 136% so its about as good as I can make it at this point.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 12:58:16 PM   
carlkay58

 

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The bad weather has slowed down the attrition and pockets so the Soviets have reached 3.3M men. That is bad news for the winter.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 12:58:44 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		T20 Ground Losses:

The Soviets have lost about the same amount of men as they currently have so I have kept them to half of what they could have had. That is scary.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 12:59:05 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		T20 Air Losses:

The bad weather has slowed the air losses on both sides. The Axis has lost over a fourth of the Soviet losses.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 12:59:30 PM   
carlkay58

 

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The fighters are back up in numbers. The vehicle pool is really low which points out just how important those captured Soviet trucks are. The Vehicles in Repair should start going down in 42 which is a good thing. The Axis Generic pool will also become important in 42.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 1:00:04 PM   
carlkay58

 

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I have a chance to capture Leningrad, Kharkov, Kursk, Dnepropetrovsk, and Zaporozhe for an additional 70+ VPs. That would give me over 600 VPs going into 42. My aim then is the 750 VPs needed for Sudden Victory in 42 as my real shot at winning the war.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 1:00:49 PM   
carlkay58

 

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You can see just how large of an area is not really reachable with supplies. AGN is bad but there are areas of AGC that are bad too. There are just never enough FBDs and RAR Labor units to get the rail everywhere you need it. Sometimes I wonder whether I really should continue advancing after the retreating Soviets - particularly in the Valdai Hills. I did need the rail line just south of 9th Army to keep that in supply but the 16th Army could be too far in.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 1:01:21 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		T20 Rail Net South:

If you look closely at the area south of the double rail line you can see just how much rail has been repaired by my Hungarian Corps HQ with three or four RAR Labor units. They have almost connected Odessa north. My Rumanian Corps HQ with some Rumanian Rail units has done the majority of the rails to the east of Nikolaev. It does build up after a while.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 1:02:25 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		T20 Situation Analysis:

I have not had a Sudden Defeat so things are doing good in that department. However I have done some stuff wrong through the turns. The first notable one is my handling of the PGs. I dispersed the 1st PG too far in AGS and that negated their ability to continue pocketing the Soviets. I really could have used some more pockets and specifically captured the Dnepr bend with the large (6 and 3) railyards there. On the other hand I concentrated the 2nd and 3rd PGs too closely in AGC and that caused problems there. The best handling has actually been AGN but I pulled the FBD south before deciding that the AI left me some chances up there so the advance has been hindered in the final moves. Hopefully Leningrad will fall during the freeze and then everything will look good there.

T20 Files:



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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 3:42:10 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		With all the extra depots you seem to be adding, is this impacting the other things you might be wanting to spend APs on? Or are you finding that you can manage both without issues?

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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 3:59:45 PM   
dudefan

 

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Status: offline 		I am also wondering? What priority are the depots on the western russian part set?

Is it really better to have a level 1 depot every 4-6 hexes than to have 0 on the way and only level 4 depots at the front?

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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 5:27:17 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		M60 - I now have a nice AP pool built up. I really don't spend APs much as the Axis except for priority repairs and depots. There are the depots I build in Hungary and Rumania to cut down the truck usage in those countries. I find those depots free up over 2K trucks in the fall and closer to 3K in the bad weather months. I usually have to wait until turn 8 or so before I make an infantry army an assault HQ. But that is about the time the combat is getting a bit more intense and I have a better feel for where the real fight will be coming. Right now they are the 18th and 11th Armies. So I don't really feel a shortage of APs during the 41 summer and fall campaigns.

dudefan - I have them set to 1s up to the last major railyard those railyards are 2s and then 3s towards the front and every depot that traced a supply line to the front line during the turn is set to 4. A supply depot set to 0 will not draw supply. If every depot behind the front ones were set to 0 then they would never draw supplies and my units would be sending trucks back to Berlin for supply. Not good. That is without taking into account the air supply needs. The only depots I have set to 0 are the NSS depots. Thus all of my other depots can/will draw from the NSS depots when they need supply.

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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 7:00:01 PM   
Nix77

 

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Status: offline 		So you dont find it problematic that depots in areas where there is no supply need are storing extra freight for nothing? Or are these extra depots actually pushing freight to the front depots once they're full?

Do you have trouble receiving enough freight to the front since with so many depots one would think the rail cap is being used more widely, or are you using FBDs to prioritize them?

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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/10/2021 7:14:49 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		Nix77:

I do not find the depots storing in the rear detracts anything from the front depots. First the front depots have a higher priority so they will grab from a lower priority depot when they need freight first.

Say I have a 4 - 4 - 3 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 0 (NSS) supply line from front line to rear. When my front line units draw from the first 4 depot and it needs freight to send them it will go to the first 3 priority depot and take what it can from there. If it still needs freight it will go to the next 3 depot, etc. This happens all down the line. BUT this is not all drawing from the same railyards for capacity as each of the depots are further back so the 30 hex range may mean that the second 4 depot has an additional level 2 railyard to draw with than the first 4 depot. So you are not necessarily using the same railyards to do the shipping. Anything a lower priority depot is storing is open game for a higher priority depot to grab without having to go directly to the NSS so having lower priority depots storing freight along the way is less distance for that freight to travel to where it is needed. Remember that freight is pulled in this system - not pushed. If there is little or no demand the freight will not travel in large amounts.

I have not yet used the FBDs to set up a Super Depot. I find that you can get sufficient supplies to the front without them and that lets your FBDs advance your railheads. As you can tell in the AAR there are never enough FBDs and using the RAR Labor units to help fill the gaps is NOT sufficient nor as easy to use.

I hope that answers your questions. If not, let me know and I will expand further.

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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 12:48:25 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		T21 Soviet Attacks:

The Soviets launch a series of attacks against the 2nd PG and are moderately successful.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 12:48:58 AM   
carlkay58

 

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So we jump immediately from Mud to Blizzard. The weather gods do not like me. But the supply net for both AGN and AGC are improving.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 12:49:27 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		T21 Supply Net South:

Kharkov is exposed. The supply net is getting stretched some but is not too bad overall.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 12:49:51 AM   
carlkay58

 

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I transfer AOGs forward to level 2 airbases. I keep the air directives inactive as much of the front is in blizzard conditions and I don't want them flying in the snow conditions either.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 12:50:15 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		T21 Freight:

The freight is improving but still not meeting needs. They are improving though and working on their back log.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 12:50:36 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		T21 AGN:

The pocket is eliminated. Oranienbaum falls to the 18th Army. 1st PG clears more ground around the Leningrad pocket. 16th Army is continuing to follow the retreating Soviets.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 12:51:04 AM   
carlkay58

 

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3rd PG is now within 30 miles of Moscow. 2nd PG is helping by threatening a pocket. 2nd Army is advancing towards Orel in the south while the Bryansk forces are being held in place by the 4th Army. 9th Army is advancing behind the retreating Soviets.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 12:51:24 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Kursk and Kharkov are isolated. Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye are taken. Things are looking up some in the south. Now the challenge is to hold it all.






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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 12:52:06 AM   
carlkay58

 

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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 7:18:12 AM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Nix77:

I do not find the depots storing in the rear detracts anything from the front depots. First the front depots have a higher priority so they will grab from a lower priority depot when they need freight first.

Say I have a 4 - 4 - 3 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 0 (NSS) supply line from front line to rear. When my front line units draw from the first 4 depot and it needs freight to send them it will go to the first 3 priority depot and take what it can from there. If it still needs freight it will go to the next 3 depot, etc. This happens all down the line. BUT this is not all drawing from the same railyards for capacity as each of the depots are further back so the 30 hex range may mean that the second 4 depot has an additional level 2 railyard to draw with than the first 4 depot. So you are not necessarily using the same railyards to do the shipping. Anything a lower priority depot is storing is open game for a higher priority depot to grab without having to go directly to the NSS so having lower priority depots storing freight along the way is less distance for that freight to travel to where it is needed. Remember that freight is pulled in this system - not pushed. If there is little or no demand the freight will not travel in large amounts.

I have not yet used the FBDs to set up a Super Depot. I find that you can get sufficient supplies to the front without them and that lets your FBDs advance your railheads. As you can tell in the AAR there are never enough FBDs and using the RAR Labor units to help fill the gaps is NOT sufficient nor as easy to use.

I hope that answers your questions. If not, let me know and I will expand further.



Thanks for the answer!

I understand your depot system, but I'm a bit surprised and worried to see how efficiently it's working. On the other hand it kind of makes sense to see the more AP you use on depots, the more efficient your logistic network gets.

My expectation would be that the more depots you build, the more railyard cap you would be using for "useless" intermediate hauling and storage. But it actually can be that this intermediate hauling reduces the freight distance penalties, and thus uses the railyard cap more efficiently at the cost of maybe wasting it a bit by hauling to unused intermediate depots.

OK that was mostly me thinking out loud :)

Your AARs are an absolute goldmine, keep it up!


PS: By being worried, I meant that it seems the German logistics leash isn't tight enough. HLYA being at Leningrad's gates on T4 and your apparent abundance of supplies just raises my suspicions, but we need to get more AAR material and experience before making any hasty conclusions about the logistics system.


< Message edited by Nix77 -- 4/11/2021 7:23:56 AM >

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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 12:01:38 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		Personally I believe that the logistics system is too easy for the Axis. Even without Super Depots available to them.

But I also realize that historically PG 2 did absolutely no protection of its supply line in June & July 41 while PG 3 had its supply line protected more by accident and the presence of 9th Army than by any design or care from the PG. PG 4 had the benefit of having destroyed the enemy so quickly that there were no real threats to its supply line. PG 1 did not get far enough and fast enough until later for the supply line to really stretch it out.

In the game I find that a single double line rail will supply two infantry armies and a panzer group fairly easily. That covers the entire AGN. AGC has some problems but it has two good double lines heading east AND two FBDs to work them so they tend to be okay. AGS is the problem child but if you have 11th Army and the Rumanians depend mostly on the port supply in the south it can work okay. You can see that my problem areas are AGN (because I pulled out the FBD figuring I was not going for Leningrad and then the AI left the door open and I changed my mine) and AGS depth where the double lines diverge too much to cover everything okay.

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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 1:23:20 PM   
Nix77

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah, I don't really see the rail lines getting strained that much. Refitting more heavily might create congestion, I noticed those two 4PzG panzer regiments alone at Luga were drawing 4000 tons worth of replacements!

I did some testing with your logistics network on turn 21-22, I think you could do better if there were less priority 4 depots away from front. Just by tuning down the priority levels, I could pull double the freight to key areas like Rzhev, Luga and Kharkov. Especially the depots that were previously sending as much freight as they were receiving were getting benefits from these changes.

Getting more stuff closer to the front changed the vehicle requirements quite a lot, resulting into more trucks in the pool and depots. The system is however quite intricate and there were all kinds of consequences, such as replacements not flowing into areas where supplies were now moving etc. Also random admin rolls make it difficult to compare the two different depot priority setups.

It seems it's also important to match the depot priority approximately to the army supply priorities that are operating in the area. Low priority armies don't require many high priority depots.

I also noted that the intermediate storage depot system doesn't really work that reliably. Front depots are drawing freight from places like Lvov, Liepaja and even Craiova in southern Romania, even when there are depots with full stock closer to the front.

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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 3:41:54 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


It seems it's also important to match the depot priority approximately to the army supply priorities that are operating in the area. Low priority armies don't require many high priority depots.



This is a very BIG point ;-)

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RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 4:25:30 PM   
melnibonian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

T20 Soviet Garrison:

It is currently sitting at 136% so its about as good as I can make it at this point.



Just a stupid question. How do you manage to send troops to the Soviet Garrison?

I can't figure out how to do it

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Post #: 299
RE: Heading East into the Soviet Union - 4/11/2021 5:06:33 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: melnibonian


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

T20 Soviet Garrison:

It is currently sitting at 136% so its about as good as I can make it at this point.



Just a stupid question. How do you manage to send troops to the Soviet Garrison?

I can't figure out how to do it



They have to be on a working rail hex and available for transfer. Do exactly what you would do to change the HQ of the unit and you will see Soviet Garrison as an option.

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