RoadWarrior
Posts: 224
Joined: 5/8/2020 Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive quote:
ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior quote:
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote:
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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain Tyronec and Roadwarrior are far better players than me & I believe Tyronec said it the best on the current state of the game. I can only parapharse it but went something on the line of, "if you don't take the Soviet out in 41 early 42 then the Soviets will grow massive and Germany will die in 44". Of course Tyronec put it much more elegantly. I do think that the game does favor the Soviets. But it isn't that bad at the moment, I think... I think this is an excellent point, and I am coming to agree with this. I am about to start a Stal to Berlin as Germany vs. a good opponent (Speedysteve) and I expect to get quashed. In testing I played the other side vs. Loki, and by early '44 was rolling toward Romania. I don't think the solution is necessarily to help the Germans in '41 take out the Soviet Union, but rather some later help for the Germans....not sure how, since 1943 turns into a feedback loop where Soviets win, increase morale, get stronger, while Germans constantly doing the opposite. I really don't know the cure......the game certainly favors a supplied attacker, especially in clear terrain The crux is the casualty rate to the Soviets. The Soviets can control the flow in 41 with retreat & retreat and retreat. The Germans are hard pressed to do anything about it if the Soviets retreat correctly. To have a chance the Germans have to surround then force surrender many many Soviets and it isnt going to happen in WITE2. By the time the Germans get to a Soviet line the units are rested, with good leaders, well supplied. Thus when the germans do attack the casualties are way low and Soviets retreat from a combat with minimial losses. Then during their turn the Soviets just rotate out the Divisions that got hit for a rest. I saw this and was no way I was going to play the Soviets again in WITE2 and decided to end a game before even getting started when I came back this month. I like a challenge and thus went back fully to the German side. On top of that my game is a no early end which will be "Hell on Earth" for me to even survive til 1944. I don't think it can be done as Germany. But that is just me looking into my crystal ball. Don't even get me started on the free AP's given tot he Soviets by mid 1943. 1500 AP is a very large number of AP to do anything with. If you are going to give APs then subdivide the gifted AP where you have the normal AP you get a turn then break it down to what it was given for and only can be used for it. Thus the AP for Cav should only be used to purchase Cav & not build a whole bunch of forts instead. +1 to HLYA Great AAR by the way and grats to you both on your game. The logistics system currently is at the heart of the unhistorical results we see in the AARs 1. SHC is unhistorically rewarded to retreat a few hexes a turn until the logistic chain stops GHC in the center and south. An Army that is simply marching forward turn after turn and hardly fighting is using very few supplies, this is just basic math!!!!!! Supplies shortages for Germans and Russians were caused by heavy fighting or fuel by long advances, not both sides holding hands taking a summer walk together 30 miles a week to the east. 2. So moral, KIA and factory loses are far lower than historical, supplies for some reason are low based on a lack of combat and long summer walks????? 3. By 1942 German Army is at 1943 levels and Russian Army at 1944 levels. There is no 1942, which is why games will end in 44. The massive encirclements of spring and summer of 1942 are not possible because SHC has 1/2 dozen Armies that can easily break open almost any pocket in 1942, when historically that simply was not the case. Supplies and replacements were a major issue in 42 for SHC, but not in this game. The combat tempo of 41 is simply not happening and a logistics system that is hard wired to output data that says the combat tempo is high when it simply is low, very low if the hand holding is done right. 4. The logistics system is a single system for both sides when historically it simply was not. This is by far the biggest problem with the game. 5. Because of the logistic system (1 system for both sides) simply is not working historically; it causes a feedback loop where the attacker never runs out of supplies after summer of 41. When historically the Russians took months to build up supplies for major operations and then had to stop after some small gains because they ran out. Summer 1941 was a blood bath. The Russians caused supply issues for the Germans, because they attacked causing shortages and delaying German advances. The 1941 supply issues were not caused long summer walks. The logistic system appears to need allot of tweaking, allot. Sadly I would have to say 1.0 is more of a historical simulation than 2.0. No idea if the logistics system can be fixed or if the will is their to fix it's clear short coming. Brief thought #1 on this - I don't think we have enough data at this point - how many AARs have gone well into 42? I can just think of this game (which IMHO doesn't tell us a great deal given the differing levels of experience of the two players); Loki v SpeedySteve; jubjubs 'comeback' AAR that he started in 42 (which seems to be following a more historical path) and the GloriousRuse v Bobo AAR that was going on pre-release. Brief thought #2 - I disagree on the logistics system. Not so much that I don't think it has any flaws/problems - more that it is miles better than WITE1 where you could supply all of your panzer armies at the end of a single rail line etc. Brief thought #3 - If there is an issue with the Soviets being able to retreat too easily and avoid losses I think the simpler way to deal with it is to look at the victory conditions. So for example I'd maybe move the current 1st January check to 1st December and set the mark at something like the cities historically taken + 40VPs or something like that. So the Soviet player would have to fight further forward in the South to prevent the Axis player getting too many time bonuses and the 'fringe' victory cities in the centre like Rzhev/Tula/Orel (which many Axis players are reluctant to take at the moment because of the risk of losing them and the time bonus in the Soviet counter-offensive) become more contested. Brief thought #4 As a general principle the way I see it is that as long as the Devs/players are satisfied that various mechanics are working 'adequately' and that the very broad pattern of the outcomes are historical (so you aren't seeing the Axis taking Moscow every game or the Soviets continuing their winter counteroffensive all the way to Berlin etc) it makes more sense to try and balance the game through the victory point system rather than having a situation where the balance 'pendulum' keeps on swinging between the two sides as the developers fiddle with mechanics. EDIT Agree on the Assault HQs - they just don't quite feel 'right' at the moment in the way they are working. If the HQs are going to have an effect on CPPs it makes more sense to me for the rule to be that units in Assault HQs lose half as many CPPs when attacking rather than regaining them twice as quickly. 1. If your open minded and simply look at the newer AAR's the data is one sided. If your just here axe grinding, your not open minded and everyone can see that. ALL the players that read the newer AARs understand that 1941 is about both sides holding hands taking a summer walk together 30 miles a week to the east. While special rules limit the German advance, if the logistics system was so good why the special rules? 2. The logistic system 2.0 is worse far worse than 1.0. Again if your open minded and read the AARs 1.0, you can see that with evenly matched players the game goes to 45. The Russians generally go on the offensive in mid to late 43 ( OMG historical ) not spring of 42. 1.0 43-45 the Germans can put up some kind of a defense. If your not grinding an axe 2.0 1942 Germany can't put up a defense, because SHC does not have a supply issue. The Russian logistic system was horrible, it took them months to build up enough supplies for offences. The current system gives all sides the same system, that's not historical. 3. The VP system as is looks historicaly right to me. Changing the 1941 VP conditions does nothing to fix the core issue, its a Band-Aid on a 3 inch wide 6 inch deep knife wound. 4. Its clear to everyone ( hello ) its not working. Russia going on the offensive in 1942 after players putting in 100's only to find 2.0 yields unhistorical results, while 1.0 yields historical results. No player I know is going to love dumping 100's of hours into a game only to find out it is flawed. The core issue is the logistics system, if not why are there special rules for Germany in 1941. If the logistics system was not the core issue, there would be NO as in NO special rules. I personally hope that it can be saved. Ignoring the issue and hoping the Band-Aid stops the bleeding is not going to save the patient.
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