RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 3:42:38 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Thanks again Loki, you have admirable patience in dealing with us newcomers!

A couple more (!) questions off the back of your reply:

You say: "at a given spot you can only have as many trains/rolling stock as there is unused rail yard capacity in 30 hexes. So that sets one input number - how much freight you can load onto trains."

Q: Where can we see what this trains capacity per hex listed?

You say: "your depots set a level of demand and its not impossible that you are demanding too much (across the wider system)."
Q: How can I tell at a glance that my total depot demand exceeds my capacity to meet that demand?

first is my mistake, I should know by now not to say something without double checking - what comes up is the SMP penalty to load unload, so in the 2 images below Danzig is cheaper as its a bigger railyard

so its a manual estimation I'm afraid

the other you can't, so again you are back to judgements and a feel.

I'll leave your next 2 posts to Red Lancer as he's more aware of what is being captured there, but again the bars are incremental and pretty broad brush.

I can understand the frustration in that this is important and a good grasp underpins wider game play. Its just that in the end the system is so complex that it defies being pinned down (& its dynamic too) - thats not an opt out, just that since the logistics phase happens out of sight its so hard to determine every aspect.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 4/1/2021 3:43:13 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 3:51:05 PM

M60A3TTS

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It's indeed a valid point and I think the simple answer is scaling. A National Supply Source with 2 million tons represented by the blue bar. The amount received, represented by the green bar could be in the single or double digits. So clearly trying to scale those numbers visually would be impossible. The blue bar might have to be 2 or 3 feet tall to represent 2 million.

It is what it is. The key takeaways are do you see something in the blue bar showing the depot has supplies, and are the black bars closer to the front lines somewhat taller, indicating extended capacity is available, likely because a HQ is sitting on it. The red and green bars you can largely ignore.

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Post #: 32

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 4:23:23 PM

squatter

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Thank you Loki - your patience and willingness to help is truly appreciated.

Also, am I right in thinking the manual is your work? FWIW I don't think I've ever seen such a clearly written manual, especially given the size and complexity of the game. Outstanding job.

I hear what you're saying about the logistics in the game. I think a lot of this is down to expectation management. I - and imagine many others - come to this expecting that they will be able to one day understand exactly what is happening in the logistics model. Clearly this is not the case, that it is too complex, too opaque and too dynamic to be quantified exactly. I'm beginning to understand that the player needs to understand the broad strokes of the system - where best to put depots/roughly how many depots is necessary/drop hqs on depots/use RR units etc - and at a certain point stop trying to really understand exactly what is going on under the hood. In essence, the player needs to have faith that the system works, some 'experience' and 'feel' for what's good and what aint, and just go with it!

Perhaps managing players' expectations from the outset will prevent a certain amount of the frustration that comes with digging only to realise that no matter how much you dig, you'll never be able to codify exactly what's going on in the system at any given point in time. Some kind of disclaimer perhaps!

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Post #: 33

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 4:33:44 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

It's indeed a valid point and I think the simple answer is scaling. A National Supply Source with 2 million tons represented by the blue bar. The amount received, represented by the green bar could be in the single or double digits. So clearly trying to scale those numbers visually would be impossible. The blue bar might have to be 2 or 3 feet tall to represent 2 million.

It is what it is. The key takeaways are do you see something in the blue bar showing the depot has supplies, and are the black bars closer to the front lines somewhat taller, indicating extended capacity is available, likely because a HQ is sitting on it. The red and green bars you can largely ignore.

Thanks M60.

It's rather disappointing to learn that these bars - one of my favourite parts of the GUI because they purport to impart lots of key info in an elegant non-verbal way, like any good GUI - are in fact something of a mirage.

I can understand the need for scaling, but I'm pretty sure most players come to the game (as I did) and see those bars, and assume they represent absolute and comparable amounts. Perhaps the way these bars are displayed could be looked at? You could have everything to scale up to, say, 40k tonnes, and any bar that represents more than this has a + sign above it, or something.

Also, I repost one of my previous images here:

The green/blue/red bars in this depot are all the same size. Yet green represents 26%, blue represents 63%, and red represents 18%.

Yet they are all the same size.

Now I am not a programmer, but I would have assumed getting bars to display at relatively correct proportions according to a percentage wouldn't have been that difficult?! But then that's probably why I'm not a programmer!

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 34

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 4:40:37 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

....
I hear what you're saying about the logistics in the game. I think a lot of this is down to expectation management. I - and imagine many others - come to this expecting that they will be able to one day understand exactly what is happening in the logistics model. Clearly this is not the case, that it is too complex, too opaque and too dynamic to be quantified exactly. I'm beginning to understand that the player needs to understand the broad strokes of the system - where best to put depots/roughly how many depots is necessary/drop hqs on depots/use RR units etc - and at a certain point stop trying to really understand exactly what is going on under the hood. In essence, the player needs to have faith that the system works, some 'experience' and 'feel' for what's good and what aint, and just go with it!

...

yes, I think this is right, in the end you have this vast moving system somewhat out of sight and a number of discrete tools you can access.

I think that players coming from WiTW might find this a wee bit easier in that there you got used to rough and ready rules but in a much smaller environment - not so many units (even after June 1944), less space and so on. While the actual model is a significant rework of WiTW, the 'input' elements are not that wildly different

as to the manual thanks, but not just me. Red Lancer set up the core framework and all the one page guides, Joel was patience personified in going over sections to get them technically right and a lot of the alpha testers did superb work on helping with the final edits. And to Matrix for being prepared to accept that it was as short as we could make it - sounds a wee bit like an oscar speech but in truth its the product of many people (with a shared view that we wanted to make this game accessible),

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 4:58:21 PM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Thank you Loki - your patience and willingness to help is truly appreciated.

Also, am I right in thinking the manual is your work? FWIW I don't think I've ever seen such a clearly written manual, especially given the size and complexity of the game. Outstanding job.

I hear what you're saying about the logistics in the game. I think a lot of this is down to expectation management. I - and imagine many others - come to this expecting that they will be able to one day understand exactly what is happening in the logistics model. Clearly this is not the case, that it is too complex, too opaque and too dynamic to be quantified exactly. I'm beginning to understand that the player needs to understand the broad strokes of the system - where best to put depots/roughly how many depots is necessary/drop hqs on depots/use RR units etc - and at a certain point stop trying to really understand exactly what is going on under the hood. In essence, the player needs to have faith that the system works, some 'experience' and 'feel' for what's good and what aint, and just go with it!

Perhaps managing players' expectations from the outset will prevent a certain amount of the frustration that comes with digging only to realise that no matter how much you dig, you'll never be able to codify exactly what's going on in the system at any given point in time. Some kind of disclaimer perhaps!

This is pretty much spot on. Loki and I have differing views on how to prioritize depots but at the end of the day it really is not important because we both know how to make the supply system sing. It took me a couple playthroughs of the Stalingrad to Berlin scenario to truly "get it". I still can't answer some of these forum logistics questions off the top of my head as Loki can, but I don't have to, I'm experienced enough to know what is needed to make it all work. This is something that everyone can do as well, but it requires practice.

Reading the manual is like the reading the one for your automobile. It will tell you how to start the car, operate the radio and open the trunk but doesn't tell you how to drive. You have to learn that part.

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Post #: 36

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 5:08:43 PM

squatter

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Yes I can accept the game and the logistics system as it is. It's clearly something of unfathomable complexity that perhaps not even its designer any longer knows *exactly* what is happening at any given juncture.

As I mentioned before, perhaps the way you 'package' it to the player in terms of expectations would help. ie: The logistics system creates a realistic, complex, dynamic and realistic simulation of how supply is shipped to units. You the player will have an overall understanding and influence over what is going on and a set of tools to manipulate the system to your ends. But just like the experience of an actual supreme commander you will not be able to diagnose every individual fault or quirk that presents itself. Your job will be to employ the tools you have to achieve your aims and trust the system will respond in a realistic way. Your job is not to master every cog in the machine of the logistics system, as it is simulating something that one person could not actually ever comprehend in its entirety and multitude of variables.

And I'm fine with that, personally - assuming the code simulating everything is robust!

The thing I'm not fine about is the size of the bars on the depot icons!!!!!

< Message edited by squatter -- 4/1/2021 5:10:08 PM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 5:29:48 PM

Zemke

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Thanks, Loki for the detailed explanations. I do have a much better understand now, and in my current game, I understand the why and how "better", and I am seeing what is going on based on what you have stated...better.

HOWEVER....I agree with Squatter, "One of the things about the logistics system for me, is that sadly it is completely unintuitive. Things you see with your eyes often don't equate to what your intuition would be."

This game and other frankly other Grisby titles flood you with tons of data, which is good. In a real US Army unit or NATO Unit or Command staff, the Commander is not given rems of data to sort through, (Staff Officer's sort through reams of data), the Commander is shown, usually in a visual format, graph or bullet points of the bottom line, at whatever level of Command he is at. This takes place today, in every US Army HQ from Battalion to the Pentagon. Commanders do not see the "data", they see a chart, so they can make a decision (if needed), based on the information. That is what this game and the previous WitE, WitW, and WitP: AE all do not have for the most part. You are forced to dig through the information up and down the chain of command to find critical information. The one thing that could be done better, and frankly is far more realistic, (if we are acting as Commanders), is to present the information simply, and charts are simple. The production graphs are a good start, but I would suggest expanding that concept throughout. I have no idea what programming that would take, but it would certainly make the player's job a lot easier, and save him lots of time.

I am certain 2by3 has access to either some of the designers or playtesters who have served as Staff Officers who would be more than happy to show examples. For Example, I could walk onto the TOC (Tactical Operations Center of my HQ, and see at a glance, Unit Strength, Ammo, Critical Equipment/Weapons status, Main Supply Route Status (MSR), and so on, and it was usually very simple. One way is the "Bubble Chart", showing a particular functional area as either Green, Yellow, Red, or Black. You never wanted to see red or black...bad.

This could be done for every single HQ in the game. Click on the HQ, and you could then click a "Critical Status Chart" or something like that. I can then see at a glance, and if there are issues, and work to fix them, perhaps with even a Recommendation. Commanders always ask their staff, "What is your recommendation" or How do we fix it!" I have heard both statements many times. Currently, you have to dig, and read, and click here, then there.

Not trying to be critical, I think the ideas behind the logistical system are good, and other details, I love the detail. I just don't like having to dig around and find info, that as a real commander I should have in a very easy quick format that anyone understands. The game should not be about who can master the data dig, it should be about making decisions based on easy-to-access information or a picture of what that information represents, ie the "bubble chart" so decisions can be made.

I am adding this: On a Staff, (every staff in the West anyway), the primary functional areas are broken into the big four, (there are other Staff Positions, but these are the main ones), G-1 Personal, G-2 Intelligence, G-3 Operations and G-4 Logistics. Usually, each will give a very short Situational Brief and have usually a couple of slides showing the relevant information for that functional area, (data). This could be done historically and I would expect they would be, given the level of detail. I am not exactly sure of the Soviet organization, but for the Germans, Operations was the Ia, Supply was the Ib, IIa was Personnel and Intelegence was the Ic

< Message edited by Zemke -- 4/1/2021 5:50:52 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 7:18:12 PM

Zemke

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Last question, why do units get their supplies at the depot? Not exactly sure about German WW II doctrine, but I think it the same as the modern Army today, which is a Division does not send trucks to a depot to get supplies, they either go to the Corps "trains" or Corps Depot, or their requests are pushed to them by Corps to their location. Units stationed at bases are different, I am talking about in the "field", at war.

A more realistic flow would be National Supply Source-Depot/Port-Depots up the chain and -Corps HQ-Unit. Also, priority units are getting supplies pushed to them, they are not going and getting them.

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 7:36:06 PM

carlkay58

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Zemke - a depot with an HQ on it is that level of supply depot. The depot has a truck pool that will transfer supplies out to the combat units. If the combat units still do not have enough supply, they can send some of their trucks back to the depot to help transfer supply to itself. Note that sometimes these trips are pretty long as they may be going to a depot further back than the local one. When the combat unit uses its own trucks it will take a MP hit for the turn - sometimes a very substantial one.

So the short of it is that the combat units have the supplies arrive at their locations. But if there is not enough supply and you have a group of empty trucks, you ship those trucks off to 'salvage' some supply in the rear. There were times in the Battle of Smolensk where some of the panzer divisions were sending trucks back to Germany itself for supplies.

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 8:31:24 PM

Zemke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Zemke - a depot with an HQ on it is that level of supply depot. The depot has a truck pool that will transfer supplies out to the combat units. If the combat units still do not have enough supply, they can send some of their trucks back to the depot to help transfer supply to itself. Note that sometimes these trips are pretty long as they may be going to a depot further back than the local one. When the combat unit uses its own trucks it will take a MP hit for the turn - sometimes a very substantial one.

So the short of it is that the combat units have the supplies arrive at their locations. But if there is not enough supply and you have a group of empty trucks, you ship those trucks off to 'salvage' some supply in the rear. There were times in the Battle of Smolensk where some of the panzer divisions were sending trucks back to Germany itself for supplies.

I understand that what you are saying. Just stating (if you are responding to my previous statement) doctrine in the US Army/NATO for the supply chain is Depot-HQ-Unit, and what "agency" is moving them depends on the situation. Sometimes the unit itself is picking them up at HQ's supply dumps, and if the unit is say a high-priority unit or the need is great, the supplies are "pushed" to the unit. But the chain is Depot-HQ-Unit. In this game, if a HQ is sitting on a depot, that is great, but I don't think most depots had Corps HQ on them, unless they were the Corps own depot, which you could say in the game is, I will grant you that.

Granted, German units did send trucks back to Germany, but this was NOT their doctrine, or the norm, rather the exception, and frankly was probably not authorized by higher HQ. More than likely, desperate units in need of select hard-to-get items or parts acting on their own initiative.

If you think I disagree with the current way the game models the FLOW of supplies, you would be correct, as I think it is not historically or doctrinally correct. It should be NSS - Depots - Army HQ - Corps HQ - Unit. But hey, programing, time all that, I get it, compromises have to be made I guess.

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 9:38:28 PM

dudefan

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Also from pure gameplay perspective, right now hqs are underwhelming since the only job is to keep them on depots and within command range. Everything else doesnt matter.

I can sit them behind rivers, lakes mountains whatnot... as long as 5 hexes it is fine.

Would be nice if the position of the hq within the command range matters besides sitting on a depot (where a single corps hq doesnt really help a lot anyway)

< Message edited by dudefan -- 4/1/2021 9:39:40 PM >

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/1/2021 10:57:03 PM

Great_Ajax

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I have to agree with Zemke on this topic. The game could do a much better job in presenting the player (commander) with more streamlined information to assist in decision making. I know there is a sizeable portion of the player base that likes to sort through pages and pages of data to agonize over every min-max combination in the game but there is also a sizeable portion that would appreciate less detail and more useful metrics in order to concentrate on playing the game in a reasonable amount of time. Figuring out supply efficiencies should not be a process for the player. There are plenty of ways that metrics could be converted into several staff screens - logistics, personnel, operations and intelligence to enhance an understanding. What would a commander care about during a briefing?

Example, the player could set Armies or Army Groups into stances - assault, general offensive, defensive or sustainment which translates to a percentage of supply needs being met. Assault would require 150% supply, Offensive 100%, defensive 75% and sustainment 50% as examples. He can then run a report to see how well his subordinate commands are meeting these stances. At a glance, the player could determine how well supplied his units are according to his plan.

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/2/2021 12:49:08 AM

Erik Rutins

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We actually made some pretty significant improvements in that area (actionable feedback to the player) since WITE1 and WITW, but there is always room for more improvement. Feel free to post your suggestions in the feature suggestions sub-forum. We've already got quite a few ideas that didn't make it into the release as far as improving some of the top level information, but input from players now that the game is released is always valuable to help us realize what we may have taken for granted as understood.

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/2/2021 7:35:52 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Also from pure gameplay perspective, right now hqs are underwhelming since the only job is to keep them on depots and within command range. Everything else doesnt matter.

I can sit them behind rivers, lakes mountains whatnot... as long as 5 hexes it is fine.

Would be nice if the position of the hq within the command range matters besides sitting on a depot (where a single corps hq doesnt really help a lot anyway)

worth stressing, HQs play a major role in the logistics system. Realise its not the unit-HQ-depot model that is mentioned above but remember any routine in this game is full of leadership rolls etc, so misplace your HQs so as to weaken that process and you'll get far more failed supply outcomes

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/2/2021 8:23:04 AM

Nix77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Example, the player could set Armies or Army Groups into stances - assault, general offensive, defensive or sustainment which translates to a percentage of supply needs being met. Assault would require 150% supply, Offensive 100%, defensive 75% and sustainment 50% as examples. He can then run a report to see how well his subordinate commands are meeting these stances. At a glance, the player could determine how well supplied his units are according to his plan.

I have 4th PzG on the assault (SupPri4), 2nd PzG on general offensive (SupPri3), 4th Army on defensive (SupPri1) and RHG HQs on sustainment (SupPri0). I can check these HQ's subordinates supply situation at a glance from CR with a couple of clicks (fuel/ammo/supply percentage/received). Once I get the hang of it, I can use logistics view to see how the depots are delivering supplies to these HQs.

I would however appreciate if the depot bars would show meaningful ratios of received/stored/sent freight. One nice improvement would also be on the depot network view ("8"): if I select a unit, only that unit's depot deliveries (all of them) would show, and if I select an HQ, all of it's subordinates primary depot deliveries would be only seen. Having all the depot delivery lines on screen is sometimes a bit messy, but you could have that when no unit is selected.

I'm not a logistics expert, but I'd probably also prefer a "depot => HQ => unit" delivery system, where the HQ would be an intermediate truck stop. It would create an interesting logistical puzzle on HQ <=> unit level (which is how it was in WitE1?), and would also give benefit for units being closer to HQ (3 hex rule => no trucks). But I'm quite OK with the current system :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

worth stressing, HQs play a major role in the logistics system. Realise its not the unit-HQ-depot model that is mentioned above but remember any routine in this game is full of leadership rolls etc, so misplace your HQs so as to weaken that process and you'll get far more failed supply outcomes

Still the major role is just sticking the HQ in command range. Or is there something more to it I'm missing?

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/2/2021 9:31:46 AM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Zemke - a depot with an HQ on it is that level of supply depot. The depot has a truck pool that will transfer supplies out to the combat units. If the combat units still do not have enough supply, they can send some of their trucks back to the depot to help transfer supply to itself. Note that sometimes these trips are pretty long as they may be going to a depot further back than the local one. When the combat unit uses its own trucks it will take a MP hit for the turn - sometimes a very substantial one.

So the short of it is that the combat units have the supplies arrive at their locations. But if there is not enough supply and you have a group of empty trucks, you ship those trucks off to 'salvage' some supply in the rear. There were times in the Battle of Smolensk where some of the panzer divisions were sending trucks back to Germany itself for supplies.

I understand that what you are saying. Just stating (if you are responding to my previous statement) doctrine in the US Army/NATO for the supply chain is Depot-HQ-Unit, and what "agency" is moving them depends on the situation. Sometimes the unit itself is picking them up at HQ's supply dumps, and if the unit is say a high-priority unit or the need is great, the supplies are "pushed" to the unit. But the chain is Depot-HQ-Unit. In this game, if a HQ is sitting on a depot, that is great, but I don't think most depots had Corps HQ on them, unless they were the Corps own depot, which you could say in the game is, I will grant you that.

Granted, German units did send trucks back to Germany, but this was NOT their doctrine, or the norm, rather the exception, and frankly was probably not authorized by higher HQ. More than likely, desperate units in need of select hard-to-get items or parts acting on their own initiative.

If you think I disagree with the current way the game models the FLOW of supplies, you would be correct, as I think it is not historically or doctrinally correct. It should be NSS - Depots - Army HQ - Corps HQ - Unit. But hey, programing, time all that, I get it, compromises have to be made I guess.

I agree that the information needs to be presented better, but the Depot-Division system does actually represent German practice pretty well.

The Korps did not have a lot in the way of truck resources, and were not normally in the chain. Instead it was the Army level that delivered supplies to Forward Depots, from which the Divisions would then directly draw.

Korps
Die Armeekorps waren in die Versorgung der ihnen unterstellten Divisionen nicht eingeschaltet und hatten nur die fest zugeteilten Korpstruppen zu versorgen. Dazu verf�gten sie unter dem Befehl des Korps-Nachschubf�hrers �ber:
1 Feldpostamt
1-2 Kraftwagenkolonnen (30 t)
1 Betriebsstoffkolonne (25 cbm)
1 Werkstattzug
F�r die Bearbeitung der Versorgungslage war im Korpsstab der Quartiermeister (Generalstabsoffizier) verantwortlich

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Soldat/Versorgung-R.htm

As the Army level did not have that may trucks either, the integral Division supply units would potentially have to go directly to the Army level depots.

< Message edited by MechFO -- 4/2/2021 9:39:29 AM >

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/2/2021 10:14:20 AM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Here's the southerly depot's numbers.

What surprises me here are the received/stored/sent numbers are 8k vs 19k vs 4.5k yet the three bars are the same size?

That leaves me slightly dumbfounded and confused. (cont...)

Thank you for pointing this out, I wasn't paying attention and didn't notice this. Now that I'm looking I see that I'm sending loads of supply to 1 priority depots that I want to have some supply, but I don't want to fill them to capacity. It seems that if there are too many Priority 1 depots around, they leach supply away before anything gets to distant Priority 4 ones.

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Post #: 48

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/2/2021 11:35:59 AM

Nix77

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Any idea if the priority 1 depots all around the europe are actually useful? There's loads of them in Germany and Poland if I let the AI do the depot allocation? Most of the ports (Rostock etc) are storing huge amounts of freight and not sending anything, even though the Baltic ports are set to import. Just a few ports decided to send anything out.

Should the rule of thumb be something like this:

Furthest bomber/transport field depots, pocket cleanup areas: 1
Low priority front depots, airfield depots: 2
High priority front depots: 3
Assault front depots: 4
Everything else: 0

All exporting ports to 0 until they get emptied and your import docks start getting low received freight numbers.

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 4/2/2021 11:37:55 AM >

(in reply to MechFO)

Post #: 49

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/4/2021 10:00:48 AM

Medicusa

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Joined: 9/24/2019
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Does anybody know how I can put more trucks into my depots? The manual says trucks come from capacity if I recall right but this doesnt work at all for me. I always have thousands trucks in my pool and still depots supply units with unit trucks for months.

(in reply to Repsol)

Post #: 50

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/4/2021 10:15:45 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Any idea if the priority 1 depots all around the europe are actually useful? There's loads of them in Germany and Poland if I let the AI do the depot allocation? Most of the ports (Rostock etc) are storing huge amounts of freight and not sending anything, even though the Baltic ports are set to import. Just a few ports decided to send anything out.

Should the rule of thumb be something like this:

Furthest bomber/transport field depots, pocket cleanup areas: 1
Low priority front depots, airfield depots: 2
High priority front depots: 3
Assault front depots: 4
Everything else: 0

All exporting ports to 0 until they get emptied and your import docks start getting low received freight numbers.

aye, thats a basically sound layout. I wouldn't worry too much if a few depots around Berlin etc were full, for the most part that is not freight that can move further east (rail cap limits), but in general you may as well have as little as possible locked up away from the NSS - at least till the end game

quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

Does anybody know how I can put more trucks into my depots? The manual says trucks come from capacity if I recall right but this doesnt work at all for me. I always have thousands trucks in my pool and still depots supply units with unit trucks for months.

Double check that these trucks are in the active or the transit pool, a lot that are not allocated are in that sort of transition state. In the main it seems to take a while for trucks in reserve to move on, in part as the depots have a limited capacity for truck allocation

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/4/2021 10:38:17 AM

Medicusa

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The starting screen says they are in the pool, sometimes over 4000 trucks. And with a capacity of 60000 shouldnt I get 6000 trucks as a limit in this depot? I remember that formula from the manual. But I never get them.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 52

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/4/2021 1:37:25 PM

Nix77

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From: Finland
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Theoretical question: All depots on the map are empty, except the NSS ofcourse.

(1) If I set a single depot on the front to priority 4, would it get all that it can from the NSS, limited to railcap it counts from 30hex radius?

(2) If in addition I would set a single depot somewhere in between NSS and front, would that in any way help push more freight to the front depot, or would the front depot still get the same amount of freight?

(3) Am I right that adding depots doesn't increase the freight hauling capacity in any way, they're basically just a way to control where that capacity is directed to? Or do I actually need a depot in 30hex range of a railyard to "activate" that capacity? Any other depot covering that railyard would just then share the capacity, not increase it?

(in reply to Medicusa)

Post #: 53

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/4/2021 1:58:12 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Theoretical question: All depots on the map are empty, except the NSS ofcourse.

(1) If I set a single depot on the front to priority 4, would it get all that it can from the NSS, limited to railcap it counts from 30hex radius?

(2) If in addition I would set a single depot somewhere in between NSS and front, would that in any way help push more freight to the front depot, or would the front depot still get the same amount of freight?

(3) Am I right that adding depots doesn't increase the freight hauling capacity in any way, they're basically just a way to control where that capacity is directed to? Or do I actually need a depot in 30hex range of a railyard to "activate" that capacity? Any other depot covering that railyard would just then share the capacity, not increase it?

1 - yes, the only constraint will be that depot's processing capacity

2 - not directly, but it may help use up the rail way delivery capacity so there is more supply nearby for your combat units

3 - yes, only caveat is that a railyard more than 30 hexes from a depot is unlikely to be of much use, but then its going to be a in a geographically isolated region or over into western Germany

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/4/2021 3:23:58 PM

Medicusa

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/823848130901704764/828288397297713162/unknown.png
Lets see if it works now :-) Here you can see I have trucks in the pool but they didnt use them in the depot where are they needed.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 55

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/4/2021 4:22:39 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/823848130901704764/828288397297713162/unknown.png
Lets see if it works now :-) Here you can see I have trucks in the pool but they didnt use them in the depot where are they needed.

well that looks like its working as designed to me, you have depot that has just been established, supplying a massive airforce (far too much to be honest) so it is using what it has, you have less than 900 in the pool (& many of those are going to be in the transit not the active pool), so your units are having to compensate.

Reduce that airforce commitment, that is the root of your problem, give it a turn or two and it should settle down.

You have 98% of your truck stock in active use, that small bit in the reserve pool really isn't the main problem

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/4/2021 7:26:46 PM

Medicusa

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I do not think that is the case here. But there are 2 question still, why didnt they still use the so needed rest of the pool trucks? And why is that every turn regardless of what I have there? See this turn for example:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456160201486237698/828349133731266570/unknown.png
I have over 2000 trucks in the pool, the depot can receive more freight but for some reason the system things it doesnt (railway is green). And then instead of using the 2000 trucks from the pool it uses 2400 trucks from the units. Why does it not use the pool trucks? It cant be a freight issue.

(in reply to loki100)

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/4/2021 8:38:28 PM

dudefan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Also from pure gameplay perspective, right now hqs are underwhelming since the only job is to keep them on depots and within command range. Everything else doesnt matter.

I can sit them behind rivers, lakes mountains whatnot... as long as 5 hexes it is fine.

Would be nice if the position of the hq within the command range matters besides sitting on a depot (where a single corps hq doesnt really help a lot anyway)

worth stressing, HQs play a major role in the logistics system. Realise its not the unit-HQ-depot model that is mentioned above but remember any routine in this game is full of leadership rolls etc, so misplace your HQs so as to weaken that process and you'll get far more failed supply outcomes

Sorry to bring it up again.

I checked the manual it certainly says hat there is no linear benefit from having a corps hq closer than 5 hexes. I was stating this already in the post above. So your comment makes no sense unless the manual is wrong?

I wrote that it doesnt matter where you park your corps hq WITHIN command range (5hexes) and i think this makes corps hq a bit underwhelming , since there is no challenge to get them within 5 hexes at all.

Also there is ridiculous stuff possible like parking them behind mountains, rivers, lakes or in swamps... as long as it is wihin 5 hexes of his Units, corps hqs job is done. Which is boring.

maybe they can add trucks when they are closer to the units? Or better command rolls when closer to the units or depots? Or anything?

Right now they are just busy work with no strategic decision value (parking them on depots if possible is no strategic decision...)

< Message edited by dudefan -- 4/4/2021 8:41:51 PM >

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 58

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/5/2021 4:10:45 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

I do not think that is the case here. But there are 2 question still, why didnt they still use the so needed rest of the pool trucks? And why is that every turn regardless of what I have there? See this turn for example:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456160201486237698/828349133731266570/unknown.png
I have over 2000 trucks in the pool, the depot can receive more freight but for some reason the system things it doesnt (railway is green). And then instead of using the 2000 trucks from the pool it uses 2400 trucks from the units. Why does it not use the pool trucks? It cant be a freight issue.

see the discussion above in this thread. Supply deliver is a combination of having the depot capacity to process (which you have) and the rail capacity to deliver to that depot (which you don't - green lines are not always good).

your core problem is that massive airforce commitment to an advanced depot that is also trying to supply the bulk of your army. Move it back, maybe leave one fighter formation in position for protection but you can't play 1941 as the Germans with a massive deployment of the LW to your forward depots - if you do then your ground units don't get freight from that depot.

the other suspicion is you have the supply priority of your HQs too high, lower it and see if that means more trucks stay in the units.

from both your images, I'd say its a demand issue, you are demanding too much freight from Pskov than you can deliver.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

...

Sorry to bring it up again.

I checked the manual it certainly says hat there is no linear benefit from having a corps hq closer than 5 hexes. I was stating this already in the post above. So your comment makes no sense unless the manual is wrong?

I wrote that it doesnt matter where you park your corps hq WITHIN command range (5hexes) and i think this makes corps hq a bit underwhelming , since there is no challenge to get them within 5 hexes at all.

Also there is ridiculous stuff possible like parking them behind mountains, rivers, lakes or in swamps... as long as it is wihin 5 hexes of his Units, corps hqs job is done. Which is boring.

maybe they can add trucks when they are closer to the units? Or better command rolls when closer to the units or depots? Or anything?

Right now they are just busy work with no strategic decision value (parking them on depots if possible is no strategic decision...)

my apologies I misread what you wrote and missed the caveat.

but given the wider value of HQs to the game system, I'm not sure I agree with your last sentence

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Post #: 59

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 11:36:59 AM

Medicusa

Posts: 48
Joined: 9/24/2019
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

I do not think that is the case here. But there are 2 question still, why didnt they still use the so needed rest of the pool trucks? And why is that every turn regardless of what I have there? See this turn for example:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456160201486237698/828349133731266570/unknown.png
I have over 2000 trucks in the pool, the depot can receive more freight but for some reason the system things it doesnt (railway is green). And then instead of using the 2000 trucks from the pool it uses 2400 trucks from the units. Why does it not use the pool trucks? It cant be a freight issue.

see the discussion above in this thread. Supply deliver is a combination of having the depot capacity to process (which you have) and the rail capacity to deliver to that depot (which you don't - green lines are not always good).

your core problem is that massive airforce commitment to an advanced depot that is also trying to supply the bulk of your army. Move it back, maybe leave one fighter formation in position for protection but you can't play 1941 as the Germans with a massive deployment of the LW to your forward depots - if you do then your ground units don't get freight from that depot.

the other suspicion is you have the supply priority of your HQs too high, lower it and see if that means more trucks stay in the units.

from both your images, I'd say its a demand issue, you are demanding too much freight from Pskov than you can deliver.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

...

Sorry to bring it up again.

I checked the manual it certainly says hat there is no linear benefit from having a corps hq closer than 5 hexes. I was stating this already in the post above. So your comment makes no sense unless the manual is wrong?

I wrote that it doesnt matter where you park your corps hq WITHIN command range (5hexes) and i think this makes corps hq a bit underwhelming , since there is no challenge to get them within 5 hexes at all.

Also there is ridiculous stuff possible like parking them behind mountains, rivers, lakes or in swamps... as long as it is wihin 5 hexes of his Units, corps hqs job is done. Which is boring.

maybe they can add trucks when they are closer to the units? Or better command rolls when closer to the units or depots? Or anything?

Right now they are just busy work with no strategic decision value (parking them on depots if possible is no strategic decision...)

my apologies I misread what you wrote and missed the caveat.

but given the wider value of HQs to the game system, I'm not sure I agree with your last sentence

quote:

see the discussion above in this thread. Supply deliver is a combination of having the depot capacity to process (which you have) and the rail capacity to deliver to that depot (which you don't - green lines are not always good).

your core problem is that massive airforce commitment to an advanced depot that is also trying to supply the bulk of your army. Move it back, maybe leave one fighter formation in position for protection but you can't play 1941 as the Germans with a massive deployment of the LW to your forward depots - if you do then your ground units don't get freight from that depot.

the other suspicion is you have the supply priority of your HQs too high, lower it and see if that means more trucks stay in the units.

from both your images, I'd say its a demand issue, you are demanding too much freight from Pskov than you can deliver.

I am sorry, but after searching above I still couldnt figure out why green rail lines are not good. Doesnt green mean they work and have enough capicity left? Black is broken or not used, yellow and orange and red is higher use. So why do I have a rail line problem?

If my rail line have 12k capacity and I use around 2k every week, then it looks pretty fine to me. Also the problem never was to move enough supply. I always get 100% of what I need. The problem only is for several turns that they do not use enough trucks in my depots even though I have them plenty in my pool.

< Message edited by Medicusa -- 4/6/2021 11:42:26 AM >

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 60