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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 11:51:59 AM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

...
I am sorry, but after searching above I still couldnt figure out why green rail lines are not good. Doesnt green mean they work and have enough capicity left? Black is broken or not used, yellow and orange and red is higher use. So why do I have a rail line problem?

If my rail line have 12k capacity and I use around 2k every week, then it looks pretty fine to me. Also the problem never was to move enough supply. I always get 100% of what I need. The problem only is for several turns that they do not use enough trucks in my depots even though I have them plenty in my pool.

a line can be green because you have a well calibrated rail net accessing branch lines etc so the load is spread and most excess usage is cleared so its all free for the next turn. Or .. you have unused rail capacity as you lack sufficient level 2 railyards to generate the trains you need.

Since I've played the game a few times - my strong suspicion given the situation you show is that its the second situation that applies.

your combat units (incl that massive airforce commitment) may be getting what they need, but they are shedding their unit trucks to achieve it - as you are not bringing enough supply by rail to Pskov. My advice would be twofold: (a) reduce the LW commitment at such an advanced depot; and (b) reduce the supply priority of your combat HQs.

In combination that may well mean you can survive on the freight being delivered to Pskov - which will improve your mobility etc - remember that while supply < need is a problem, trucks missing from the units can have a much worse impact

_____________________________

(in reply to Medicusa)

Post #: 61

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 12:30:49 PM

Medicusa

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Joined: 9/24/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

...
I am sorry, but after searching above I still couldnt figure out why green rail lines are not good. Doesnt green mean they work and have enough capicity left? Black is broken or not used, yellow and orange and red is higher use. So why do I have a rail line problem?

If my rail line have 12k capacity and I use around 2k every week, then it looks pretty fine to me. Also the problem never was to move enough supply. I always get 100% of what I need. The problem only is for several turns that they do not use enough trucks in my depots even though I have them plenty in my pool.

a line can be green because you have a well calibrated rail net accessing branch lines etc so the load is spread and most excess usage is cleared so its all free for the next turn. Or .. you have unused rail capacity as you lack sufficient level 2 railyards to generate the trains you need.

Since I've played the game a few times - my strong suspicion given the situation you show is that its the second situation that applies.

your combat units (incl that massive airforce commitment) may be getting what they need, but they are shedding their unit trucks to achieve it - as you are not bringing enough supply by rail to Pskov. My advice would be twofold: (a) reduce the LW commitment at such an advanced depot; and (b) reduce the supply priority of your combat HQs.

In combination that may well mean you can survive on the freight being delivered to Pskov - which will improve your mobility etc - remember that while supply < need is a problem, trucks missing from the units can have a much worse impact

I think I have enough rail capacity. The lowest value on the supply chain is 14000 and supply used on the rails is much much less than that. I also didnt move any units via rail and all rails appear green here. Check out this overview from the same turn:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456160201486237698/828969423204253696/unknown.png

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 62

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 1:00:49 PM

Nix77

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From: Finland
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There might be some misunderstanding with the logistics terms here :)

Rail line capacity = the amount a freight a single rail line hex can support before starting to get clogged => turning orange/red. Moving freight to depots, railing units and enemy interdiction will use up this capacity.

Railing capacity / rolling stock / train capacity = this is the capacity to move stuff around, created by size 2+ railyards. Depots can use any train capacity they have in 30 hex radius, but this is really difficult to gauge. I don't still understand even close to 100% how it works :)

Depot capacity = the amount of freight a single depot can handle. Railyard size and parked HQ can increase the capacity, supply priority and parked FBD/NKPS will increase the demand of freight to a single depot.

EDIT: Read manual chapter 24.4!

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 4/6/2021 1:05:13 PM >

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Post #: 63

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 1:21:02 PM

MaB1708

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From: Freiburg(Germany)
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Quick question here: is there any way to expand a railyard? Other then boosting the related depot with HQ presence etc.
How does my railyard goes up in size so that I have >1 factory point?

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Post #: 64

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 1:25:06 PM

Medicusa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

There might be some misunderstanding with the logistics terms here :)

Rail line capacity = the amount a freight a single rail line hex can support before starting to get clogged => turning orange/red. Moving freight to depots, railing units and enemy interdiction will use up this capacity.

Railing capacity / rolling stock / train capacity = this is the capacity to move stuff around, created by size 2+ railyards. Depots can use any train capacity they have in 30 hex radius, but this is really difficult to gauge. I don't still understand even close to 100% how it works :)

Depot capacity = the amount of freight a single depot can handle. Railyard size and parked HQ can increase the capacity, supply priority and parked FBD/NKPS will increase the demand of freight to a single depot.

EDIT: Read manual chapter 24.4!

I dont think there is a misunderstanding. For exmaple, Riga shows a 40, which means level 4 railyard which is 40000t capacity to move 30 hexes.

(in reply to Nix77)

Post #: 65

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 1:25:49 PM

Nix77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaB1708

Quick question here: is there any way to expand a railyard? Other then boosting the related depot with HQ presence etc.
How does my railyard goes up in size so that I have >1 factory point?

It's not possible to expand railyards.

HQs don't actually boost the railyard, it just increases the depot handling capacity, which is a separate thing from the rolling stock / railing capacity the railyards offer.

You can speed up the repair of a railyard by setting priority factory repair on it. Railyards with depots are also prioritized automatically after the manually set priority repairs.

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 4/6/2021 1:26:17 PM >

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Post #: 66

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 1:33:13 PM

Nix77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

There might be some misunderstanding with the logistics terms here :)

Rail line capacity = the amount a freight a single rail line hex can support before starting to get clogged => turning orange/red. Moving freight to depots, railing units and enemy interdiction will use up this capacity.

Railing capacity / rolling stock / train capacity = this is the capacity to move stuff around, created by size 2+ railyards. Depots can use any train capacity they have in 30 hex radius, but this is really difficult to gauge. I don't still understand even close to 100% how it works :)

Depot capacity = the amount of freight a single depot can handle. Railyard size and parked HQ can increase the capacity, supply priority and parked FBD/NKPS will increase the demand of freight to a single depot.

EDIT: Read manual chapter 24.4!

I dont think there is a misunderstanding. For exmaple, Riga shows a 40, which means level 4 railyard which is 40000t capacity to move 30 hexes.

That 40000t capacity is probably spread all along the 30 hex area for all the depots that can reach Riga. I'm thinking that mostly the issue of front depots not receiving freight/trucks up to capacity is because you don't yet have enough local rolling stock capacity from the still damaged railyards near these depots.

As I said, I'm a bit at loss with the logistics system still, maybe I should try the Vistula to Berlin scenario where the depots and rail lines probably start getting really strained.

(in reply to Medicusa)

Post #: 67

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 1:46:15 PM

MaB1708

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Thank you Nix, I was wondering and could find no answer anywhere as to how to enlarge railyards, so I was assuming you cannot. Now I know.
So as newly build depots only have a railyard size one and (almost?) all of the existing ones in the east (seen from german T1 perspective) are also level1 only in this areas I am restricted to 10K of railyard capacity tonnage basically (plus addons from other railyard within a 30 Hex radius, right?)?

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Post #: 68

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 1:55:24 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaB1708

Thank you Nix, I was wondering and could find no answer anywhere as to how to enlarge railyards, so I was assuming you cannot. Now I know.
So as newly build depots only have a railyard size one and (almost?) all of the existing ones in the east (seen from german T1 perspective) are also level1 only in this areas I am restricted to 10K of railyard capacity tonnage basically (plus addons from other railyard within a 30 Hex radius, right?)?

not quite

as above in this thread, the game conventions don't help but there are two different rail capacities:

a) the capacity of that rail hex to enable trains to pass (so the obv is dual/single track), this gets used up as trains go up and down (with units or freight) and over time it becomes more costly (ie less trains pass that point) as usage increases
b) the 'trains' are generated by rail yards of size 2 or more, you are right that what is available in a given hex is some sub-set of the total number of such railyards in 30 hexes (the ones further away may get claimed by other tasks). Unfortunately we refer to this as rail capacity too

a level 1 railyard will end up generating a depot with the capacity to process 10k of freight - which you can enhance by HQ placement

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Post #: 69

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 1:58:48 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77
...
As I said, I'm a bit at loss with the logistics system still, maybe I should try the Vistula to Berlin scenario where the depots and rail lines probably start getting really strained.

I'd enthusiastically endorse this idea.

the problem in 1941 is that you have a set of discrete rail lines and depot systems, so that is a particular problem but you are not trying to supply that large an army.

VtB, you have a relativel connected rail net but a lot of men and tanks to support, so its a bit more of a brute force problem. I think its a great scenario in its own right but it really shows the interaction of rail yard capacity, super-depots etc and you can see the practical advantages.

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Post #: 70

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 3:12:42 PM

ranknfile

Posts: 155
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

...

As I said, I'm a bit at loss with the logistics system still, maybe I should try the Vistula to Berlin scenario where the depots and rail lines probably start getting really strained.

It's the scenario I'm using to learn the game; and it has become - at turn 8 - very much a "manage the logistics" exercise. An enjoyable one however!

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Post #: 71

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 6:31:49 PM

MaB1708

Posts: 336
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From: Freiburg(Germany)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

not quite

as above in this thread, the game conventions don't help but there are two different rail capacities:

a) the capacity of that rail hex to enable trains to pass (so the obv is dual/single track), this gets used up as trains go up and down (with units or freight) and over time it becomes more costly (ie less trains pass that point) as usage increases
b) the 'trains' are generated by rail yards of size 2 or more, you are right that what is available in a given hex is some sub-set of the total number of such railyards in 30 hexes (the ones further away may get claimed by other tasks). Unfortunately we refer to this as rail capacity too

a level 1 railyard will end up generating a depot with the capacity to process 10k of freight - which you can enhance by HQ placement

This has clicked now, thank you!

May I ask (from the manual 22.4.3) is that
"During each logistics phase, accumulated friendly
rail line usage in each hex is reduced to the higher of
either current rail usage divided by six or the enemy air
interdiction value (the actual value of this is shown in a
hex pop-up) times 500, with the latter being maxed out at
45,000 tons of rail line usage. In cases where there is no
enemy air interdiction, at the start of the movement phase
the max rail line usage will be 5,000 tons (for a dual track
line and 2,000 for a single track line)."
the formula to roughly calculate the rail tonnage/capacity per Hex carryover from one turn to the next? Does it mean no matter how overutilzed you had your capacity, the next turn the preset utilisation is never higher as 2000 (single track) or 5000 (double track) resp.?

< Message edited by MaB1708 -- 4/6/2021 6:52:30 PM >

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Post #: 72

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/6/2021 7:46:55 PM

loki100

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I presume so, in that it says that (if its wrong I'll complain to the author

). If you ignore air interdiction, usage penalties stop at 30k, so 30/6 = 5k carried over.

You can have >5k if there is interdiction - while the manual mentions air, Soviet partisans operate the same way.

So that is one way in which partisans can have a sustained impact, especially if you are already running your rail net at capacity.

The 5k may not sound much but you are immediately paying 2 SMP per hex before anything moves, so the notional 200 hex range is getting chopped back.

_____________________________

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Post #: 73

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/7/2021 4:47:57 AM

MaB1708

Posts: 336
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From: Freiburg(Germany)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I presume so, in that it says that (if its wrong I'll complain to the author ). If you ignore air interdiction, usage penalties stop at 30k, so 30/6 = 5k carried over.

You can have >5k if there is interdiction - while the manual mentions air, Soviet partisans operate the same way.

So that is one way in which partisans can have a sustained impact, especially if you are already running your rail net at capacity.

The 5k may not sound much but you are immediately paying 2 SMP per hex before anything moves, so the notional 200 hex range is getting chopped back.

Don't blame the author, I hear he is a friendly and helpful guy :-)
Still, I do not understand this paragraph. Para 1 of 22.4.3 talks about SMP penalties and is clear. This next para - the one I quoted - I cannot understand, does that mean that in any case if no enemy interdiction is at work rail tonnage/capacity usage is at 5K or ONLY if SMP have been used? Has nothing to do with non-SMP rail usage, so if no SMP has been used on any given rail hex all this does not apply and any carry-over I might see next turn is from non-SMP freight transport and normal unit movement?

"I presume so, in that it says that" - I see :-) Please bear with me, english is not my native tongue and in complex matters like this it is not easy at times to grab the impact, even if you get all the words right :-)

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Post #: 74

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/7/2021 5:19:04 AM

James80

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quote:

b) the 'trains' are generated by rail yards of size 2 or more, you are right that what is available in a given hex is some sub-set of the total number of such railyards in 30 hexes (the ones further away may get claimed by other tasks).

Is there any way to see the issue if I run out of train capacity? I know I can see all my lvl 2+ railyards in f2 mode but that doesn't help me to see if I run out of it.
And is there a way to see enemy lvl 2+ railyards (to plan my advances)

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Post #: 75

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/7/2021 7:28:07 AM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaB1708

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I presume so, in that it says that (if its wrong I'll complain to the author ). If you ignore air interdiction, usage penalties stop at 30k, so 30/6 = 5k carried over.

You can have >5k if there is interdiction - while the manual mentions air, Soviet partisans operate the same way.

So that is one way in which partisans can have a sustained impact, especially if you are already running your rail net at capacity.

The 5k may not sound much but you are immediately paying 2 SMP per hex before anything moves, so the notional 200 hex range is getting chopped back.

Don't blame the author, I hear he is a friendly and helpful guy :-)
Still, I do not understand this paragraph. Para 1 of 22.4.3 talks about SMP penalties and is clear. This next para - the one I quoted - I cannot understand, does that mean that in any case if no enemy interdiction is at work rail tonnage/capacity usage is at 5K or ONLY if SMP have been used? Has nothing to do with non-SMP rail usage, so if no SMP has been used on any given rail hex all this does not apply and any carry-over I might see next turn is from non-SMP freight transport and normal unit movement?

"I presume so, in that it says that" - I see :-) Please bear with me, english is not my native tongue and in complex matters like this it is not easy at times to grab the impact, even if you get all the words right :-)

yes, the key to that para is (for double track rail) existing usage is divided by 5k to place a residual usage in the hex that carries into the next turn. So if you made no use, then there is nothing.

It is that residual usage you see at the start of the turn in the logistics map mode

air/partisan interdiction is slower to clear and in addition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: James80

quote:

b) the 'trains' are generated by rail yards of size 2 or more, you are right that what is available in a given hex is some sub-set of the total number of such railyards in 30 hexes (the ones further away may get claimed by other tasks).

Is there any way to see the issue if I run out of train capacity? I know I can see all my lvl 2+ railyards in f2 mode but that doesn't help me to see if I run out of it.
And is there a way to see enemy lvl 2+ railyards (to plan my advances)

in the movement phase yes, in an extreme case you will lack the local SMP to entrain the unit at all, or it might entrain and only be able to move a few hexes - but that isn't really a planning tool per se more a warning that you have drawn on the local train stocks.

the problem is in the logistics phase where all this goes on out of sight, the discussion in the player's notes may help a bit to understand what is happening but you'll never actually see it.

not readily but it would be useful - one option is to open the game as the Soviets (or use the editor) and you can sort the Commander's Report to show locations-industry and then sort by railyard size. That list can be useful. You can see what you've captured in your own version of that tab, it'll show the railyard size even if it is not currently hooked into the rail net.

F2 gives some functionality but its similar to the CR view

_____________________________

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Post #: 76

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/7/2021 7:49:21 AM

Nix77

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I have added a feature suggestion to add railyard size indication to Shift-L (Friendly factory location) and Shift-T (Strategic recon) views.

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Post #: 77

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/7/2021 1:54:05 PM

dudefan

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i think it would be nice to see the 30mp range railyard capacity if i hover over a railline. OR any other way to assess the situation

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Post #: 78

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/8/2021 9:41:18 AM

MaB1708

Posts: 336
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From: Freiburg(Germany)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

There might be some misunderstanding with the logistics terms here :)

Rail line capacity = the amount a freight a single rail line hex can support before starting to get clogged => turning orange/red. Moving freight to depots, railing units and enemy interdiction will use up this capacity.

Railing capacity / rolling stock / train capacity = this is the capacity to move stuff around, created by size 2+ railyards. Depots can use any train capacity they have in 30 hex radius, but this is really difficult to gauge. I don't still understand even close to 100% how it works :)

Depot capacity = the amount of freight a single depot can handle. Railyard size and parked HQ can increase the capacity, supply priority and parked FBD/NKPS will increase the demand of freight to a single depot.

EDIT: Read manual chapter 24.4!

Am I not mistaken that
1. Rail line capacity will almost not run out (if rolling stock available) even if the nominal amount (30K double-/12K single-track plus/minus any adjustments) is reached- if there is enough trains it will continue to be utilized but with quickly growing penalties.
2. Railing capacity/Rolling Stock: the moment my railing capacity within the 30-hexes "pool" is used up there is no more shipping via rail from that yard.
3. "30 hexes" is the radius railing capacity is drawn from to enable any transport. It does not mean that rail transport from a given railyard is limited to 30 hexes, right?

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Post #: 79

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/8/2021 10:00:29 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
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1+2 - correct

3 - you are right, its not the range the unit/freight can move. Everything gets 200 SMP (reduced for already spent MP), so it can move up to 200 rail hexes as long as there are no cost penalties.

_____________________________

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Post #: 80

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/8/2021 10:42:26 AM

Nix77

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
3 - you are right, its not the range the unit/freight can move. Everything gets 200 SMP (reduced for already spent MP), so it can move up to 200 rail hexes as long as there are no cost penalties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manual page 304
Unlike ground units utilizing rail transport, freight has unlimited SMP�s, but the amount of railyard tonnage capacity required to move the freight is variable and increases with distance from the railyard(s) and increased rail usage in particular hex(es).

I'm not sure who to believe :)

If the manual is correct, freight can move far away, but will use more railyard cap the further it goes and the more congested the rail lines are. I'm not sure how the system calculates where the depots will get their freight, maybe the link to another depot/VSS that uses least railyard cap?

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 4/8/2021 10:45:36 AM >

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Post #: 81

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/8/2021 11:00:57 AM

M60A3TTS

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I hope what follows will not appear overly critical as everyone is excited about getting into the details of this game. Someone once said words to the effect that the only bad question is the one not asked.

Some of the info loki puts out there is 100% correct and given with the very real desire to help the new players. I'm not sure some of this info at this stage where so many players are new just creates as many new questions as it answers.

I too struggled with supply, and not just starting out. After a couple scenario playthroughs, I was sure I finally understood supply. I didn't, but after the third, the logistics part finally clicked.

What we want to do here is separate the wheat from the chaff. The subject of this topic involves logistics. A lot of this rail capacity discussion is revolving around the ability to move units around on rails. That's not logistics, that's strategic movement. When a unit using rail movement passes over a rail hex, it consumes some capacity. What that means to you is that the next unit moving along the identical path may not be able to travel to the same hex. You will see that when in rail mode (F2) as one unit has moved to Point A and you can only move unit #2 to Point B, somewhere behind A because capacity is used. For now, I suggest you be content with that knowledge. Trying to understand formulas behind this are all well and good, but that's not terribly important, again, right now.

Please don't fixate on this 30-hex thing. It's far less important than you think in terms of your gameplay. What is it, in practical terms, if you are familiar with a speed governor on a vehicle, is a mechanism that prevents the AI from burning out your truck fleet as well as its own when it plays against you. The longer the distance that supplies travel from a depot, the more trucks are used and it is worse as weather conditions deteriorate. So by limiting any potential supply run to a 30 hex radius, your truck fleet is not subjected to a merciless cycle of attrition.

Your challenge is to keep these supply hauls well under 30 hexes. You do that by building depots close to the front. You use priority repair on the more important depots. You stack HQs on top of the depots to enhance capacity. You connect these depots to your rail network by repairing them. Focus on doing these things, and doing them well first.

After this, you can focus on how super-depots work, and setting supply priorities of depots and units to enhance your system. You can figure out how port supply works most effectively. Loki seems to like priority 4 depots everywhere and I don't. It really isn't a big deal, because we can both move our large armies on the map and properly supply them. We can do this because we both focus on the basics. If you will do the same, again, for now, maybe your arms will not need to be that long to tackle the logistics monster.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 4/8/2021 11:06:44 AM >

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Post #: 82

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/8/2021 11:26:39 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

...

What we want to do here is separate the wheat from the chaff. The subject of this topic involves logistics. A lot of this rail capacity discussion is revolving around the ability to move units around on rails. That's not logistics, that's strategic movement. When a unit using rail movement passes over a rail hex, it consumes some capacity. What that means to you is that the next unit moving along the identical path may not be able to travel to the same hex. You will see that when in rail mode (F2) as one unit has moved to Point A and you can only move unit #2 to Point B, somewhere behind A because capacity is used. For now, I suggest you be content with that knowledge. Trying to understand formulas behind this are all well and good, but that's not terribly important, again, right now.

Please don't fixate on this 30-hex thing. It's far less important than you think in terms of your gameplay. What is it, in practical terms, if you are familiar with a speed governor on a vehicle, is a mechanism that prevents the AI from burning out your truck fleet as well as its own when it plays against you. The longer the distance that supplies travel from a depot, the more trucks are used and it is worse as weather conditions deteriorate. So by limiting any potential supply run to a 30 hex radius, your truck fleet is not subjected to a merciless cycle of attrition.

....

hate to disagree as your post is spot on, there is an Alice in Wonderland element to the logistics model (not that is unrealistic but that simply its tempting to get into the details when they are really not that useful)

but

there are 2 30 hex rules in the logistics system - that is the max overland route from unit-depot (which is what you are saying), but its also that a given rail hex will draw in needed rail/transport capacity from up to 30 hexes away.

Those 'trains' don't pay anything to arrive at the starting hex but then gain 200 SMP (less pre-used MP etc) to move to a destination. Depending on rail way congestion, they pay 1-6 SMP per hex as they move.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
3 - you are right, its not the range the unit/freight can move. Everything gets 200 SMP (reduced for already spent MP), so it can move up to 200 rail hexes as long as there are no cost penalties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manual page 304
Unlike ground units utilizing rail transport, freight has unlimited SMP�s, but the amount of railyard tonnage capacity required to move the freight is variable and increases with distance from the railyard(s) and increased rail usage in particular hex(es).

I'm not sure who to believe :)

If the manual is correct, freight can move far away, but will use more railyard cap the further it goes and the more congested the rail lines are. I'm not sure how the system calculates where the depots will get their freight, maybe the link to another depot/VSS that uses least railyard cap?

Both answers are correct as they refer to different things

1 - freight can move 200 rail hexes in a turn if there is no congestion, as congestion builds its range reduces. As in the player's notes, think of this as each tonne of freight is given 200 SMP and off it trots to its intended destination.

the 30 hex rule (this one) simply says that in determining how many units/tonnes of freight get 200 SMP to play with depends on how many level 2 railyards in 30 hexes still have unused capacity

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/8/2021 11:55:06 AM

dudefan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

the 30 hex rule (this one) simply says that in determining how many units/tonnes of freight get 200 SMP to play with depends on how many level 2 railyards in 30 hexes still have unused capacity.

How do I assess the full 30 hexes railyard 2 capacity? How can I know I have enough or not enough trains?

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Post #: 84

RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/8/2021 12:01:11 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

the 30 hex rule (this one) simply says that in determining how many units/tonnes of freight get 200 SMP to play with depends on how many level 2 railyards in 30 hexes still have unused capacity.

How do I assess the full 30 hexes railyard 2 capacity? How can I know I have enough or not enough trains?

you can't - which is really the point M60 was making.

Its constantly variable. Lets say you put a Soviet tank corps on a train, it holds that rail capacity (trains) till it detrains. So a given railyard will not have all its notional capacity till its been released.

feasibly such a unit will entrain in one turn, maybe move a short distance (entraining deducts SMP), reach its target the next, it probably doesn't have the SMP to detrain, so it does that in the 3rd turn. In the next logistics phase that rail capacity is returned to its notional depot.

in the logistics phase, railyards at the outer limits of the 30 hex range will be more likely to support a depot nearer to them than a hex at the margins

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/8/2021 12:09:36 PM

dudefan

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What is a good total railyard capacity to aim for? I have 60000 in November. Is that good or bad?

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/8/2021 2:11:48 PM

M60A3TTS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

...

What we want to do here is separate the wheat from the chaff. The subject of this topic involves logistics. A lot of this rail capacity discussion is revolving around the ability to move units around on rails. That's not logistics, that's strategic movement. When a unit using rail movement passes over a rail hex, it consumes some capacity. What that means to you is that the next unit moving along the identical path may not be able to travel to the same hex. You will see that when in rail mode (F2) as one unit has moved to Point A and you can only move unit #2 to Point B, somewhere behind A because capacity is used. For now, I suggest you be content with that knowledge. Trying to understand formulas behind this are all well and good, but that's not terribly important, again, right now.

Please don't fixate on this 30-hex thing. It's far less important than you think in terms of your gameplay. What is it, in practical terms, if you are familiar with a speed governor on a vehicle, is a mechanism that prevents the AI from burning out your truck fleet as well as its own when it plays against you. The longer the distance that supplies travel from a depot, the more trucks are used and it is worse as weather conditions deteriorate. So by limiting any potential supply run to a 30 hex radius, your truck fleet is not subjected to a merciless cycle of attrition.

....

hate to disagree as your post is spot on, there is an Alice in Wonderland element to the logistics model (not that is unrealistic but that simply its tempting to get into the details when they are really not that useful)

but

there are 2 30 hex rules in the logistics system - that is the max overland route from unit-depot (which is what you are saying), but its also that a given rail hex will draw in needed rail/transport capacity from up to 30 hexes away.

Those 'trains' don't pay anything to arrive at the starting hex but then gain 200 SMP (less pre-used MP etc) to move to a destination. Depending on rail way congestion, they pay 1-6 SMP per hex as they move.

Oh, I don't mind. Sometimes I say or miss something and you're there as my safety net to keep me from saying something I'll later regret.

That said, what practical value do you find in this other 30-hex rule? Emphasis here is on the "practical". It's a nice to know thing, that capacity on a railhex will potentially increase. But you are going to be doing all the things needed to increase logistical capacity, and not gear it towards increasing rail capacity. The latter would be a secondary benefit and nothing worth building a strategy around. Now again, maybe I'm missing something else. Back to you..

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/8/2021 2:23:44 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
....
That said, what practical value do you find in this other 30-hex rule? Emphasis here is on the "practical". It's a nice to know thing, that capacity on a railhex will potentially increase. But you are going to be doing all the things needed to increase logistical capacity, and not gear it towards increasing rail capacity. The latter would be a secondary benefit and nothing worth building a strategy around. Now again, maybe I'm missing something else. Back to you..

to me - none.

since the railyard/depot relationship is already set, I pay attention to depots as that I can control. I can sympathise with those asking for a map mode that indicates were level 2+ railyards are - simply as a small number are off the main W-E dual tracks and thus worth a side trip to incorporate.

So its a game function, it replaces the universal rail cap of WiTE1 with something more geographically realistic but in turn less easy to manipulate. Since you never suffer from having as much as you can, and it mostly falls onto the depot system and the focus of where your army should be, then its useful to know but of virtually no practical value?

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/9/2021 5:54:37 PM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

the 30 hex rule (this one) simply says that in determining how many units/tonnes of freight get 200 SMP to play with depends on how many level 2 railyards in 30 hexes still have unused capacity.

How do I assess the full 30 hexes railyard 2 capacity? How can I know I have enough or not enough trains?

you can't - which is really the point M60 was making.

Its constantly variable. Lets say you put a Soviet tank corps on a train, it holds that rail capacity (trains) till it detrains. So a given railyard will not have all its notional capacity till its been released.

feasibly such a unit will entrain in one turn, maybe move a short distance (entraining deducts SMP), reach its target the next, it probably doesn't have the SMP to detrain, so it does that in the 3rd turn. In the next logistics phase that rail capacity is returned to its notional depot.

in the logistics phase, railyards at the outer limits of the 30 hex range will be more likely to support a depot nearer to them than a hex at the margins

So if you entrain a unit in Hamburg, it's Hamburgs Railyard capacity rather than f.e. Warsaw's being used if a unit stays entrained somewhere around Kiev?

In addition, if supplies can't be handed over to a depot in range than they would get parked along the way, so in theory you should have f.e. Warsaw on 1 so it can take the supplies that the west German railyards couldn't push forward?

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics - 4/10/2021 10:17:08 AM

Repsol

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Joined: 1/20/2010
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Back to trucks for a while

...

At a certain part of the front if i notice that my units are using lots of their own trucks to get supplies...Will lowering the supply priority instantly be the only/best solution to fix this or will the AI try to fix this for me by allocating more trucks to my closest depots next turn...I guess what i'm asking is that if a problem like this exist will it be a viable option to accept this for a turn or two and eventually the AI will sort it out...

Or should i lower the supply priority of my units immidiatelly...

I guess that i could move some of the units out of the area (ex. air) but if i don't want to do that...Will the truck situation get fixed automaticcal over time ?

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Post #: 90