Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich >> Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side

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Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/5/2021 7:36:33 PM

brettermeier_bp

Posts: 11
Joined: 5/30/2020
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline

Hi, I highly appreciate the improvements that came with the latest patches, for instance that no Axis pilots are lost to ground attacks on AFs anymore.

Some problems seem to have survived though, unfortunately. In my current long '43 BTR game with the Axis, troops in Italy have started to lose supply (not showing "OUT OF SUPPLY", though, just staying at ~95% disruption and not stocking up on infantry/artillery/AFV) somewhere in Jan 44. I'm now in early Feb 44 and two divisions at the Anzio front are constantly not resupplied, getting attacked, being replaced from Gustav Line reserves.

The withdrawn units do not resupply behind the front either, but simply stay red. There is no apparent reason for this, as my industry damage is rather low (-3 score points, some 49k industry points), armament and upstream industry being largely intact. Also, the railway stations along the supply routes and in Italy more generally have only received minor damage, most showing green or at worst yellow damage colours, i.e. 24% damage at most.

Moreover, an infantry division in southern France, just north of Marseille, also has no supply and is at 95% disruption, since a couple of weeks. The supply route for it seems to change every turn or so. The problems with supply have started when more and more units spawned in Italy and started to move down to the frontline. I have reduced the number of air units stationed in Italy, thinking that maybe the AFs with units on them eat up local supply capacity, but the situation has not changed.

Any ideas what might be the cause? I suspect that the supply system could still be broken somehow, especially as units do not resupply behind the front. Maybe it is also due to me having equipped some Gustav Line units with light railflak? Or is this a feature rather than a bug, constantly weakening German troops until the line breaks in early June 44?

Post #: 1

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/6/2021 2:41:56 PM

V72

Posts: 37
Joined: 11/7/2006
From: Paris - France
Status: offline

It is the same thing when you are on the side of the allies, the German troops near Marseille are in "red"!

< Message edited by V72 -- 4/6/2021 2:48:54 PM >

(in reply to brettermeier_bp)

Post #: 2

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/7/2021 1:53:46 PM

simovitch

Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline

Supply has been modified to take into account the health of the rail centers behind the front. You can click on rail centers to see "rail use" which is impacted by bomb damage and strafing (strafing railyards actually never used to do anything because "rail use" was disabled, now it does). Italy and south France will be bottlenecks especially if the rail is getting damaged. Set some patrols over your rail centers just behind the lines and see if you can bag some raiders.

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simovitch

(in reply to V72)

Post #: 3

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/7/2021 4:36:11 PM

brettermeier_bp

Posts: 11
Joined: 5/30/2020
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline

Thanks for the info, I had forgotten to monitor "rail use". I just checked again and well, the railcenters in Italy are mostly undamaged. I can't remember having seen a lot of strafing of railcenters, but I will keep this in mind.

British fighters and fighterbombers are already on their last leg in terms of pilots it seems, as well as 2E bombers in the Med whenever they attack. So they usually do not cause much harm, but serve as training grounds for unexperienced Co Axis squadrons. US 2E occasionally hit a railcenter, but overall damage is very limited imho.

The erratically changing supply lines of 244th Infantry division north of Marseille seem particularly weird, though. The unit has been out of supply for a long time (over a month at least), and rail damage or strafing has been practically absent in the area. Other units are unaffected.

Btw, concerning supply lines: The white lines that show up when clicking on units, do they actually matter? Some run through railcenters that show zero "rail use".

(in reply to simovitch)

Post #: 4

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/8/2021 12:54:12 AM

simovitch

Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
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The longer the total length of the white lines the higher the resupply cost. Damage effects this as does whether or not the node is a rail or road junction. I don't have a 100% understanding, but 'Rail used' gets cleared every day unless the rail center or nearby centers are damaged, then it becomes an additional hinderance to resupply along with the actual target damage and the distance between nodes. Weather comes into play as well as fortification level (big time). The resupply lines will recalculate each turn to try and go around heavily jammed up rail centers.

If you are seeing unsupplied units where the rail centers are clear all the way back to Germany that might be a problem, but I'm not seeing that with the current build we are testing.

< Message edited by simovitch -- 4/8/2021 1:48:48 AM >

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simovitch

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Post #: 5

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/8/2021 7:08:29 PM

RichardL58

Posts: 28
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline

The supply lines in the south of France definitly seams broken. None of the four divisions along the coast receive supply, and I have no rail damage there. The troble spot seams to be around the Area "Orange", no white lines goes thru that railhead, as if the rail is broken.

(in reply to simovitch)

Post #: 6

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/8/2021 9:03:24 PM

mark dolby

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/22/2019
From: Caernarfon, United Kingdom
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This problem has been identified earlier and fixed in a later build than you have. When you get it, it should be resolved and compatible with your current saves.

(in reply to RichardL58)

Post #: 7

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/9/2021 10:10:52 AM

brettermeier_bp

Posts: 11
Joined: 5/30/2020
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline

I have installed v1.06.22. Is there a later build? As described, for me supply in Southern France is not broken for all divisions, just 244th Infantry north of Marseille. Sometimes, its supply line runs in circles or just for one node to some adjacent railcenter across the Rhone, instead of all the way back to Germany.

To my relief, the frontline units at Anzio and the Gustav Line have stabilized over the last in-game week. At the moment, disrupted units behind the front still do not resupply, but at least the frontline holds. I have increased heavy and light AA in Italian railcenters and also protect them with interceptors more aggressively, looking forward to hopefully see more improvements in supply.

(in reply to mark dolby)

Post #: 8

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/9/2021 5:04:37 PM

mark dolby

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/22/2019
From: Caernarfon, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brettermeier_bp

I have installed v1.06.22. Is there a later build?

Yes, in testing. Simovitch is hopeful for a release soon...ish!

< Message edited by mark dolby -- 4/9/2021 5:05:10 PM >

(in reply to brettermeier_bp)

Post #: 9

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/11/2021 2:26:14 AM

palioboy2

Posts: 190
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Canada
Status: offline

Is there an updated manual that includes things like being able to strafe rail centers? I didn't even know that was a thing. I would love to learn more about this and how to set up those raids. Specifically I assume you want to use fighters, do you want to send them on fighter sweeps? Is it a good idea to equip them with bombs?

(in reply to simovitch)

Post #: 10

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/11/2021 11:50:21 AM

simovitch

Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline

quote:

being able to strafe rail centers?

Your escorting fighters will sometimes strafe a rail center as a target of opportunity. You have no control over this action which some players would like to see changed.

We might add a "no strafe" toggle in a future patch.

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simovitch

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Post #: 11

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/11/2021 5:40:43 PM

palioboy2

Posts: 190
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Canada
Status: offline

So the best chance of getting it to happen would be to organize a sweep that crossed as many railyards a possible I assume. Are they more effective when they are equipped with bombs? can you even send the on fighter sweeps when they have bombs?

How exactly does rail use work and is there any way to see your effect on it as an Allied player? I always just assumed everything was represented by the damage of to railyards but it sounds like there is more too it that can't be seen?

(in reply to simovitch)

Post #: 12

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/17/2021 3:48:32 PM

simovitch

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Joined: 2/14/2006
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quote:

it sounds like there is more too it that can't be seen

strafing is strafing, bombing is bombing. Sweeping and strafing fighters will not use bombs; they will be jettisoned and you will wish you used drop tanks instead. Bomb damage to rail centers delays the clearing of rail use at the target and nearby cities.

No way for allies to see the rail use, just the damage. But you can get an idea of where rail use needs a whacking when you check the white supply line of enemy troops during your planning phase. Strafe or bomb those rail centers or near there and you will be on the right track.

Rail use exists only for supplying and moving German troops. The resupply problems in South France and sometimes Italy is due to the limited rail corridor being easier to isolate.

< Message edited by simovitch -- 4/17/2021 4:06:13 PM >

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simovitch

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Post #: 13

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/20/2021 6:52:19 PM

palioboy2

Posts: 190
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Canada
Status: offline

I understand not being able to see moment by moment rail travel for the allies. Is there a way to see a more general rail use, is that what is represented by the white supply line you see when you click on a unit? Is there anyway to see how you are effecting supply other then unit disruption? Will your sweeps only find trains if they sweep rail centers where the white supply lines are present? What about areas away from the rail centers? I often see white supply lines that point too and take a turn at points that aren't rail centers. Is this supposed to represent the tracks in between and can I strike at those areas?

Is there more information available to the general rules behind rail use in the manual? Or how the German resupply process works. Something simular to the break down in GG WitW's manual?

I've basically bombed every rail center from north of Rome to my Italian front line to oblivion. Since all of these rail centers are 90+% damaged am I best served aggressively sweeping , looking to destroy the limited trains that are getting through? German unit disruption seems to hover around 5 or 6 for units Im not hitting directly with airpower. Is that the most general disruptions you can create from attacking rail yards? Can that be conceivably pushed higher by dedicating resources to trying to sweep trains?

I was expecting disruptions to be a little higher considering the Germans don't have a working rail center for over like 100 miles haha.

(in reply to simovitch)

Post #: 14

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/20/2021 8:58:24 PM

mark dolby

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Joined: 12/22/2019
From: Caernarfon, United Kingdom
Status: offline

While not game related check out 'Operation Strangle', which was the Allied effort to deny supply and reinforcement to the German forces in the Gustav line. Despite intensive efforts to stop rail traffic and road use the operation fell far short of what Allied commanders hoped. But it did help when the actual ground assault went in.
Therefore although you may not see immediate benefits in your attacks, if you were not doing them, things would be much harder for the boots on the ground when the die is cast.

(in reply to palioboy2)

Post #: 15

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/20/2021 9:00:01 PM

simovitch

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Joined: 2/14/2006
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I'm not going to reiterate anything that is in the manual, you should read the sections on ground warfare. supply moves through rail centers, and also road junctions which do not appear on the map and cannot be attacked. The Allies won't break any defense lines earlier than historical, which is the goal of the ground campaign, without also bombing the German troops to high disruption levels.

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simovitch

(in reply to palioboy2)

Post #: 16

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/21/2021 4:47:45 AM

palioboy2

Posts: 190
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark dolby

While not game related check out 'Operation Strangle', which was the Allied effort to deny supply and reinforcement to the German forces in the Gustav line. Despite intensive efforts to stop rail traffic and road use the operation fell far short of what Allied commanders hoped. But it did help when the actual ground assault went in.
Therefore although you may not see immediate benefits in your attacks, if you were not doing them, things would be much harder for the boots on the ground when the die is cast.

Oh yeah I have been pounding the ground units along the Gustav line (which ever the first defensive line is in Italy), particularly rotating between hitting the Panzer divisions depending on which have been equipped with the most AA. I seem to be able to destroy AFV's more consistently then any other unit type, especially with dive bombers. I have the whole of the 12th AF converted to P47D-5's right now (early Dec 43) and they seem to really rip AFV apart, I have a pretty large stock of D-5's at this point, I also still have a bunch of Med Air Command units still using Spit V's that I have been using to divebomb as well, they seem to do a pretty good job but I would like to convert them to P47's as I plan on continuing to use them in a ground attack role. This feels a little cheesy though so I haven't decided if I will or not.

And I definitely don't expect to route Axis ground units via air attacks, or even cause a lot of wide spread disruption through attacking their supply network, I just figured that number might be closer to 10-15 disruption with the amount of damage it looks like I have done to their rail centers vs the 4-5 I have been seeing.

(in reply to mark dolby)

Post #: 17

RE: Problems with ground supply in v1.06.22, BTR Axis side - 4/21/2021 5:02:53 AM

palioboy2

Posts: 190
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

I'm not going to reiterate anything that is in the manual, you should read the sections on ground warfare. supply moves through rail centers, and also road junctions which do not appear on the map and cannot be attacked. The Allies won't break any defense lines earlier than historical, which is the goal of the ground campaign, without also bombing the German troops to high disruption levels.

I am not trying to be cheeky or lazy, I am just trying to get better at the game.

Is there a more current manual then the one supplied with the original download? If there is I have definitely missed it. All I have been able to find in the manual regarding supply for ground troops is

"But all is not as easy as it seems, for ground troops collect reinforcements
as play goes on (through a line of rail yards), which helps them to maintain their combat
effectiveness and hold their defensive lines"

and

"During play, this disruption is alleviated by reinforcements
and resupply, which are piped into the unit through connected supply-line rail yards. Attacking
a unit�s supply line (which is reflected by a white line when you select the unit), can delay
reinforcements and supply from reaching the targets, but will rarely ever permanently cripple
the unit"

I haven't been able to find anything specifically about road junctions but I could definitely just be looking in the wrong place.

I also had a question about the repair rates. I know for example a Rubber factory will repair at an average of 1.0 points per day. I am unsure though what exactly a "point" indicates. I am assuming that a factory has a total number of points based on its size. Is there a break down on this anywhere in the manual. IE does a Rubber factory with 10 capacity at 100% damage repair 1% per day, or does it repair something like 100%x10 capacity = 1000 "points" with an average of 1 point repair each day? It seems logical to me larger factories would repair slower but I am just wondering if that is indeed how it works?

And thanks everybody for the info, lots to learn about the game and the collective wisdom here is great to tap into.

(in reply to simovitch)

Post #: 18

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