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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> The War Room >> Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary

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Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 3:22:46 PM

Bamilus

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Hello,

The manual is great, but to my knowledge there's no single area that summarizes all the effects of fatigue on ground units (I'm excluding air units). So I'm posting a summary here. Please note any corrections or if I missed something. Some of these are redundant but I'm basically paraphrasing from manual.

The tl;dr is: fatigue has a negative impact on MP calculations, by reducing MP by average fatigue level of unit divided by ten (unless you pass a CPP test: die roll of 100 <= CPP), and also negatively impacts CV by 1/3 of fatigue level (as a %. So 100 fatigue = 33% CV reduction). There are other impacts but these two are the biggest.

1. Units take more fatigue moving into enemy hexes versus friendly controlled hexes (administrative movement).
2. Disrupted elements at end of a battle add extra fatigue.
3. CV is reduced by 1/3 of fatigue level
4. Rate of gain for fatigue is influenced by morale and supply level, as well as combat and terrain traversed
5. First winter rules (1 Dec to 31 Mar 42): ground elements can suffer increased fatigue in logistics phase if in blizzard hexes or hexes with snow level of 6 or more. Support elements less likely to take fatigue, infantry elements more likely.
6. Units which miss fatigue rolls can lose morale during logistic phase
7. Commanders impact fatigue rolls via their morale rating.
8. Fatigue negatively impacts unit construction values
9. Support squad elements impact the amount of fatigue added or removed from a unit during a turn (in logistics phase).
10. Support units can gain fatigue, as well.
11. Fatigue impacts MP. In MP calc, average fatigue level of each ground element in a unit is divided by ten. This resulting amount is then deducted from the MP calc. So 60 average fatigue would reduce MP by 6 (60/10). This fatigue MP reduction is canceled, however, if a unit passes a Combat Preparation Points die roll.
12. Isolated units that are low on supplies will suffer additional fatigue in logistics phase.
13. Fatigue impacts amount of retreat attrition taken (when a unit retreats or makes a displacement move).
14. General supplies are used to reduce fatigue in ground elements during logistics phase.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/14/2021 11:51:20 AM >

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 3:36:07 PM

dudefan

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Very nice and interesting! Thank you!

I have the feeling that fatigue never goes fully down if next to an enemy unit. Or is this interconnected with CPP? Maybe you can't reduce Fatigue because you can't get enough CPP when next to an enemy unit ,(,when not moved)? Does building forts make fatigue?

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 3:37:47 PM

Bamilus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Very nice and interesting! Thank you!

I have the feeling that fatigue never goes fully down if next to an enemy unit. Or is this interconnected with CPP? Maybe you can't reduce Fatigue because you can't get enough CPP when next to an enemy unit? Does building forts make fatigue?

There's lots of things that happen being in enemy ZOC to simulate low level battles. I know there's small amounts of attrition and ammo usage, each turn. Probably fatigue, as well.

I'm pretty sure building forts uses supplies but doesn't add fatigue, however fatigue does reduce construction value making it take longer to build the fort.

I don't think CPP itself impacts fatigue gain/decay but it can limit it's impacts on MP, via passing a CPP test. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. So they definitely work together but not directly in reducing or increasing each other's values, but it seems like most of the things that increase fatigue are the same things that do decrease CPP (moving, fighting, etc). It's even more confusing because both CPP and fatigue impact CV. I cant ever imagine a situation where a unit would have high fatigue AND high CPP, but Im sure its possible.

Main thing with all these systems is just to know the bright line calcs. The rest, to me, is just abstraction and it's best to let the game handle it. So I think just knowing fatigue impacts CV by 1/3 and can reduce MP by up to 10 each turn (if at 100 fatigue and fail CPP test) is enough to know what to do with it. This is really just a big board game at the end of the day (not a bad thing but a good thing).

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/12/2021 3:52:42 PM >

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 4:09:11 PM

dudefan

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From the manual: In addition, CPPs affect the chances of passing administrative rolls for resupply and to reduce fatigue when in contact with the enemy."

What has a bigger effect on CV fatigue or CPP? What is worse: 0 fatigue+ 0 CPP or 100 fatigue and 100 CPP?

< Message edited by dudefan -- 4/12/2021 4:10:02 PM >

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 4:13:07 PM

Bamilus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

From the manual: In addition, CPPs affect the chances of passing administrative rolls for resupply and to reduce fatigue when in contact with the enemy."

What has a bigger effect on CV fatigue or CPP? What is worse: 0 fatigue+ 0 CPP or 100 fatigue and 100 CPP?

I think it depends on the unit. CPP at 100 doubles ATTACKER CV but fatigue at 100 reduces ALL CV by 33 (based on my understanding). So would depend on strength of the unit but I would think a 33 CV reduction would be a bigger penalty than doubling initial CV.

The manual only mentions this CV reduction from fatigue (1/3) once and never mentions it again (4.8.3), not even in CV section. So I'm unsure in the order the modifications are applied (CPP first and then fatigue, or vice versa). It does say CPP impacts final odds, so I'm assuming fatigue reduction happens first. In that case, fatigue has a bigger impact.

Also, I found the section you're talking about, 23.2.3: "reduce fatigue when in contact with the enemy.". I'm not sure if this means reducing fatigue from disrupted units at end of a battle or reducing fatigue from being in enemy ZOC.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/12/2021 4:23:04 PM >

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 6:16:43 PM

dudefan

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One observation I have is that is nearly impossible and also not practical to save Fatigue. Since every movement (especially I bit tougher terrain) skyrockets the fatigue, very rarely I can attack with low fatigue units.

Also next to enemy units it is hard to recover fatigue. So all my units are fatigued nearly all the time..

< Message edited by dudefan -- 4/12/2021 6:19:10 PM >

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 6:57:46 PM

Stelteck

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Did the reduction in CV is not -33% at max fatigue instead of -33 CV ?

Fatigue looks identical as in WITE1

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 4/12/2021 6:58:32 PM >

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 7:16:38 PM

Bamilus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Did the reduction in CV is not -33% at max fatigue instead of -33 CV ?

Fatigue looks identical as in WITE1

Its 1/3 of fatigue. I was just using an example of 100 fatigue from his question, which is how I got -33.

"Fatigue. As Units conduct operations they gain Fatigue.
The rate of gain for Fatigue is influenced by morale and
supply as well as the terrain traversed and any combat.
Fatigue impacts the Combat Value of a ground element
with the CV reduced by 1/3 of the fatigue level. Fatigue
also impacts movement point allowance. Try and rest your
Units before fatigue gets too high"

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/12/2021 7:17:33 PM >

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 9:47:21 PM

Stelteck

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This was in the condensed manual of WITE1 :

Ground Element Fatigue
Fatigue impacts the Combat Value of a ground element and this is reflected in the CV value shown for a unit in
the game. The CV of a ground element is reduced by 1/3 of the fatigue level. Thus, an element that has a fatigue
of 60 will have its basic CV value reduced by 20 percent when calculating the CV of the unit

my understanding is that the reduction of the Combat Value (CV) due to fatigue is a % and not a flat reduction. So at max fatigue you fight at 2/3 of nominal CV value.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 4/12/2021 9:48:08 PM >

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 9:57:30 PM

Bamilus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

This was in the condensed manual of WITE1 :

Ground Element Fatigue
Fatigue impacts the Combat Value of a ground element and this is reflected in the CV value shown for a unit in
the game. The CV of a ground element is reduced by 1/3 of the fatigue level. Thus, an element that has a fatigue
of 60 will have its basic CV value reduced by 20 percent when calculating the CV of the unit

my understanding is that the reduction of the Combat Value (CV) due to fatigue is a % and not a flat reduction. So at max fatigue you fight at 2/3 of nominal CV value.

I only know what I quoted which is from the WITE2 manual. I'm not super familiar with WITE1. That makes more sense, wish they would use that wording. As worded in Wite2 manual its very unclear.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/12/2021 10:20:29 PM >

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/12/2021 10:31:01 PM

Jango32

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Is it preferable to set units to refit mode to regain supplies, fatigue and CPP if they are in friendly controlled hexes? Let's say for example that half of your Panzergruppe extended the frontline and is forming a spearhead, but the other half haven't rested enough since the previous turn's operations, and it would be preferable for those units to start operations only in the next turn.

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/13/2021 8:10:41 AM

Stelteck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus
I only know what I quoted which is from the WITE2 manual. I'm not super familiar with WITE1. That makes more sense, wish they would use that wording. As worded in Wite2 manual its very unclear.

You are right it is confusing.

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/13/2021 8:25:13 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Is it preferable to set units to refit mode to regain supplies, fatigue and CPP if they are in friendly controlled hexes? Let's say for example that half of your Panzergruppe extended the frontline and is forming a spearhead, but the other half haven't rested enough since the previous turn's operations, and it would be preferable for those units to start operations only in the next turn.

refit doesn't affect supply gain, but the chance of gaining replacements. In the main, the best place to use refit is if you can put the unit on top of a depot, otherwise you don't get much but do make additional demands on the logistics system

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/14/2021 10:44:07 AM

dudefan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Is it preferable to set units to refit mode to regain supplies, fatigue and CPP if they are in friendly controlled hexes? Let's say for example that half of your Panzergruppe extended the frontline and is forming a spearhead, but the other half haven't rested enough since the previous turn's operations, and it would be preferable for those units to start operations only in the next turn.

refit doesn't affect supply gain, but the chance of gaining replacements. In the main, the best place to use refit is if you can put the unit on top of a depot, otherwise you don't get much but do make additional demands on the logistics system

How problematic is setting several panzer divisions in the the same turn on refit. Does it hinder supply throughput for other units?

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RE: Fatigue: Ground Unit Effects Summary - 4/14/2021 11:29:28 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
...
How problematic is setting several panzer divisions in the the same turn on refit. Does it hinder supply throughput for other units?

really depends, if you are looking for manpower, well there will be a freight consequence but should work out, if you are trying to draw in scarce resources (such as replacement tanks in 1941), then you are as well to limit refit simply so you can get some of the under-strength formations turned around more quickly.

In this case its not the limits of the supply system but simply a lack of the key resource

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