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Which techs are critical? - 5/12/2021 9:57:37 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		I am working on a Mod, where a Trader Regulary comes by (every 10 or 20 turns, not sure yet), to offer you to buy certain criticial technology.
The idea is to avoid you getting stuck on not discovering something realy important (keep in mind the AI is not using Organisations or the Discovery mechanic right now).

The two things I have right now as critical technology are:
Solar Power - because not having power production can be a economic deadlock
Anti-Tank Guns - because you can not hurt enemy tanks without them

That is not a lot and I have the feeling there are more.
So I wonder: What do other people think might qualify as criticial technology?

As a secondary and optional part: What would be your "order of importance" for these techs?
I am asking because the UI space on Decisions is not unlimited - meaning I may have to choose which technologies even appear as options.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 5/12/2021 9:58:15 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/12/2021 10:11:25 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		armor for troops is critical in my opinion. But not right away. unless you start with out any that is.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 2
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/12/2021 10:22:33 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

armor for troops is critical in my opinion. But not right away. unless you start with out any that is.

Just to be sure: I am talking about technology.

I can at best give you armor tech, not (to my knowledge) equip your actuall models with armor tech - you still would need a model council for that.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 3
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/12/2021 10:25:08 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Yes that is what I mean.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 4
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/12/2021 1:12:36 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

Posts: 426
Joined: 6/7/2020
Status: offline 		Power Banks, maybe? Without them, it's possible to run out of power storage capacity just from normal building of economic assets, especially on planets with a low population.

I also have to agree with Twotribes that the two early infantry armor techs, Padded Envirosuits and Combat Armor, are core to infantry continuing to be viable combat units. Each of them doubles HP for infantry and guns, and without them, infantry will suffer absolutely appalling casualties.

I would rank the techs in the following priority order:

Solar Power (Guarantees the ability to develop the public economy)
High Velocity Guns (Guarantees at least some form of early defensive anti-tank unit, and is largely required to have a chance of winning midgame tank-on-tank actions)
Padded Envirosuits & Combat Armor (Guarantees that infantry will be useful as at least speedbumps)
Power Banks (Required to continue developing the public economy past a certain point, depending on population levels)

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 5
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/12/2021 3:08:47 PM   
redrum68

 

Posts: 1202
Joined: 11/26/2017
Status: offline 		My list is pretty much the same as Soar_Slitherine. Power Banks are eventually important but given they are further down the tech tree, you usually have enough BP at that point to discover everything.

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)
Post #: 6
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/12/2021 5:00:22 PM   
Zanotirn

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 3/12/2021
Status: offline 		I would say that the only truly critical technology is solar power.

A tier below it would be:
- Padded envirosuit/combat armor
- Heavy industry and power banks - both are needed in order to realistically develop past a certain point.
- Metai soil filtration - the plan B in case you don't find good deposits and also far more efficient than deposits/ruins to get metal production past a certain point.
- HV guns or RPGs (not always needed, but when it is, it can be a lifsaver)
- Barracks (helps a lot when conquering or being unlucky with events)
- Automatic Rifle (infantry is usually the backbone of your forces for a while and getting the best early weapon for them makes a big difference)
Edit: forgot about sealed roads

< Message edited by Zanotirn -- 5/12/2021 9:47:45 PM >

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 7
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/12/2021 6:22:33 PM   
DrakeD

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 3/31/2021
Status: offline 		It all depends on the map and starting position.

Solar power is not critical every time. Power Plant might even be better sometimes since it cost less BP to research and is cheaper to build.

I only consider Sealed Roads and one of Solar Energy or Power Plant as absolutely critical to discover before I research three techs. By the time the Economic Counsil has done that, Military Counsil should have already discovered Automatic Rifle, Padded Envirosuit, High Velocity Guns and researched one or two of them.



(in reply to Zanotirn)
Post #: 8
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/12/2021 6:48:37 PM   
eddieballgame

 

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/29/2011
Status: offline 		Energy is very important, but attaining the tech for it is not that difficult. imho
I find 'metal' to be a higher priority in trying to acquire, thus I would vote for 'Metal Soil Filtration' as a more critical tech to achieve.
Of course, this depends on the planet generation per the criticalness of it.
Good luck with this 'zgrssd', as I am most interested in the possibilities/difficulties of modding this great game.

(in reply to DrakeD)
Post #: 9
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/12/2021 9:43:52 PM   
Mercutio

 

Posts: 256
Joined: 12/26/2006
Status: offline 		I think it is all "depends" as DrakeD said.
In my current game I had 3 ruins, tons of oil, ample water, NO METAL MINES. I have 8.8% of the planet. So I research metal soil filtration, but I have to save up all the metal to build one.
As far as resources go, it seems metal can sometimes be too rare.
I mean, seriously 9 oil deposits, 3 water, no metal.


< Message edited by Mercutio -- 5/12/2021 10:13:53 PM >

(in reply to eddieballgame)
Post #: 10
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/13/2021 12:39:42 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieballgame

Energy is very important, but attaining the tech for it is not that difficult. imho
I find 'metal' to be a higher priority in trying to acquire, thus I would vote for 'Metal Soil Filtration' as a more critical tech to achieve.
Of course, this depends on the planet generation per the criticalness of it.
Good luck with this 'zgrssd', as I am most interested in the possibilities/difficulties of modding this great game.

As far as the tech trader is concerned, I am in the phase where I am trying to avoid code duplication and support scaleability - hence the questions how many important technologies there are.
My current plan is a two step process:
1. One event to decide which Technology (storing the Tech Type ID in some background variable).
2. One event the turn after to actually pay for the support with the technology.
For the first one, I can at best get a 6 Option Decision, which is currently the main limiter. So my goal is to cut it to the 5 most critical ones.

I could even give a partial refund if you already have some of the work done.
I just wish I could check if the tech is already discovered, but beyond this I got all I need.

Good points on the power banks and need for Padded Suits.
I will try to keep it to more "survival" technology and less "thriving" technology.
So it will be at best Padded Suits, AT gun, Carbine - not Combat Armor, RPG and Automatic rifles.

Cutting it down to 5, I would propably go for:
- Solar Power
- Power Banks
- AT gun
- padded suit
- Soil Filtration
Of course I do have the option to replace simpler tech with more advanced ones. Say, the Solar Power option (if you already bought it or you started with it) being replaced with Power Banks
But I will look into making those 5 first and see how little code repition I can squeeze out of the engine :)

(in reply to eddieballgame)
Post #: 11
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/13/2021 12:31:55 PM   
Uemon

 

Posts: 112
Joined: 12/11/2020
Status: offline 		Solar Power is the #1 priority and primary reason i open up with economic council.

Early game rushing laser rifles is literally a game changer (probably needs power banks too, in order to work properly).

Battle dress makes a big difference for infantry.

Metal soil filtration is crucial for higher difficulty starts.

Hidrophonics make a big difference if you choose to do biofuel for early tank rush.

The name now eludes me, but the tech that allows you 2nd tier armor for tanks is awesome.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 12
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/14/2021 4:21:46 AM   
misterprimus

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 3/12/2021
Status: offline 		On dry planets, city water tech is quite important. Once you run out of surface ice mines, you better have these ready to go!

I guess the same goes for the city metal building and city oil drill. If you have no metal, you can't build things. And if you have no oil, you can't even run truck stations.

< Message edited by misterprimus -- 5/14/2021 4:22:54 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/14/2021 11:39:38 AM   
zgrssd

 

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Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: misterprimus

On dry planets, city water tech is quite important. Once you run out of surface ice mines, you better have these ready to go!

I guess the same goes for the city metal building and city oil drill. If you have no metal, you can't build things. And if you have no oil, you can't even run truck stations.

Biofuel Refinery is a starting tech.
And the game is responsible for starting you with a water sourcce - even if it is a limited deposit.
You also get Metal, Rare Metals and Oil from Recycling Plants
So I am not too worried about those. Soil Demetalisation is already on the list.

However currently I am stuck, as I can not get the game to selection "None" as the default option. Given the high price I had planned (1000 credits or 1-2 Fate Points), I can not have the Secretary pick things randomly.

(in reply to misterprimus)
Post #: 14
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/16/2021 12:05:01 PM   
BlueTemplar


Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline 		Also from this thread :

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4949499

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

This is not actually my idea, but I thought writing it down seperately so it would not be overlooked makes some sense.

Certain Technologies are plain critical:
- Any form of Power Generation comes to mind.
- But also stuff like RPG's or High Velocity guns, if you are facing tanks.
If you get unlucky and never draw those techs, MP and even SP can be a plain old loss. While Discovery is a nice mechanic, it does not work too well for these technologies.

What if there was a event where traders "offer you critical tech" to buy, every 20 or so turns? Something similar to the "militia parade" event.
Or maybe just a really expensive Card (2 Digit PP or Fate Points) that you can play to get these critical techs, no question asked?
I think the scrap System might be useable to create such a card on demand (I have not tested it yet). But of course a Event would have perfect downward compatibility.



As I already mentioned, in SE, "never drawing" a tech can only happen for techs like Methane Synthesis (which requires >1% CO2 content in the atmosphere). And then the lack of these techs applies to every Regime.

It's the player's choice to risk making what he considers to be "essential" techs harder to discover by researching other techs that unlock new Tech Groups.
It's even less of an issue in early game where you would be hard pressed to hit the soft 100 BPs/round/task limit, so you don't lose anything (except the micromanagement PPs - again - a player choice) by putting 100% into discovery and as much as you can into the Economic Council.

RPG is an upgrade. Bazooka doesn't require any techs.
Other anti-tank and energy generating options are also available later in the tech tree, though probably too late..?
(Though what about planes in main anti-tank role ?)

And speaking of *actually* non-guaranteed options, but which might make skipping discovering solar/power plant viable :
- For energy those would be the random assets Geyser Turbines and other LE Mini-Reactors (including guaranteed ones from Major Capitals) and Gravitonic Collector artifacts.
(- Also to deal with early tanks, besides guaranteed bazookas, there are also non-guaranteed Sentinels and GR units.)

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 15
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/16/2021 2:59:25 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

It's the player's choice to risk making what he considers to be "essential" techs harder to discover by researching other techs that unlock new Tech Groups.

It is not a player choice if the Settings forces you to pick specific councils first:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4984099

If you do not like the mod, you are free to play without it.
Once I publish it that is - currently the default decision is not working, which is kinda big issue with something where a decision can be as expensive as a Fate Point or 3.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
Post #: 16
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/16/2021 4:55:45 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
RPG is an upgrade. Bazooka doesn't require any techs.
Other anti-tank and energy generating options are also available later in the tech tree, though probably too late..?
(Though what about planes in main anti-tank role ?)

Compared to solar power, serpentinization is expensive and inefficient, volcanic power is expensive and needs a volcano, nuclear power is expensive, late-game and need a source of radioactives, by the time you get any of them you have probably already had to delay your economic development for lack of energy, and you're not any more guaranteed to roll any of them than you are solar power. Fuel power plants are okay, but require a significant up-front investment in metal to build and fuel production (which costs even more metal to set up) to run, which may force delaying other early development.

After seeing how badly my RPG troops struggled against early light tanks in a recent multiplayer game with a tech 4 start (so RPG and Padded Envirosuits tech were already researched), I have very little faith in the basic zookas being a viable defense against light tanks with even 50mm armor. Maybe if entrenched in dense forest. Foot troops seem to need at least 3 or 4 levels of RPG or armor tech to hold their ground against even basic tanks, unless defending favorable terrain. Otherwise the best they can do is slow them down (with increasingly catastrophic losses the less armor & RPG tech you managed to roll).

That is why I advocated for High Velocity Guns as a critical tech rather than RPGs - anti-tank guns aren't great either since they're many times more expensive, but they should at least have enough firepower to fight tanks effectively if hidden behind meatshields. Arguably, tanks are the most efficient counter to tanks, but you're going to have to roll High Velocity Guns anyway to rely on them for that in the midgame. Strike aircraft could be total garbage depending on the gravity and air pressure, so they're not a reliable countermeasure.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
Post #: 17
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/16/2021 5:26:34 PM   
BlueTemplar


Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline 		Those look like balance issues. What's the point then of unupgraded bazookas and non-solar ?

----

But you are not forced. I already gave some examples of situations where it might be viable to go without Power Plant or Solar, at least for a while.

- getting a Model & Staff council and rushing a nearby Major to get its LE reactor and then taking advantage of asset specialization, with higher levels being more efficient.
- getting a Foreign Affairs council and quickly absorbing a nearby minor that has a Geyser Turbine / LE Mini-Reactor in its territory.

Another way is to minimize energy requirements, whether by location or choice :
- open (xeno)farming rather than domes
- scavenging rather than metal & oil mining
- wind traps or rain rather than ice mining
- private oil rather than public oil
- private light industry rather than public industry
- bureaucrat offices rather than high command
- private QoL rather than public QoL

And even "essential" councils can be taken as not the first ones as long as you can afford paying extra PPs.

And even for the Interior Council on hard and extreme difficulties, you have other options to get money or to minimize your expenses.

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 5/16/2021 5:28:28 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 18
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/16/2021 8:46:02 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Those look like balance issues. What's the point then of unupgraded bazookas and non-solar ?

Every power production tech expect serpentinization is more manpower-efficient than solar, and thus has a reason to exist, it's just that none of them (expect fuel plants, somewhat) are a substitute for getting solar early. As for unupgraded bazookas, well, maybe they could be helpful against slaver vehicles early on or something.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)
Post #: 19
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/16/2021 10:32:29 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

After seeing how badly my RPG troops struggled against early light tanks in a recent multiplayer game with a tech 4 start (so RPG and Padded Envirosuits tech were already researched), I have very little faith in the basic zookas being a viable defense against light tanks with even 50mm armor. Maybe if entrenched in dense forest. Foot troops seem to need at least 3 or 4 levels of RPG or armor tech to hold their ground against even basic tanks, unless defending favorable terrain. Otherwise the best they can do is slow them down (with increasingly catastrophic losses the less armor & RPG tech you managed to roll).

Foot infantry is inherently defensive:
"Foot is mostly defensive
Soldiers on foot without ranged attack have their Soft and Hard Attack Values divided by two."

They fight two ways:
1. Defense only, when they can get their insane Infantry entrenchment bonuses
2. By having relevant losses, but being cheap to replace

That has always been the way infantery fights.

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)
Post #: 20
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/18/2021 10:56:32 AM   
Dampfnudel

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 2/27/2019
Status: offline 		I think critical are:
1. Solar Power
2. Anti-Tank Guns
3. Metal Soil Filtration

Everything else is not critical in my opinion.

I understand as critical = game over if technology is missing under circumstances that occur many times.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 21
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/20/2021 6:15:18 PM   
Maerchen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel

I think critical are:
1. Solar Power
2. Anti-Tank Guns
3. Metal Soil Filtration

Everything else is not critical in my opinion.

I understand as critical = game over if technology is missing under circumstances that occur many times.


This.

_____________________________

The logistics hell this game is IS the fun part! - Maerchen, 2020

The good thing is, we have all the information in the reports. The bad thing is, we have all the information. Maerchen, 2020

Came for SE. Will stay for SE.

(in reply to Dampfnudel)
Post #: 22
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/20/2021 6:16:36 PM   
Maerchen

 

Posts: 348
Joined: 6/16/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Internet hiccup made me delete this.

< Message edited by Maerchen -- 5/20/2021 6:18:01 PM >

_____________________________

The logistics hell this game is IS the fun part! - Maerchen, 2020

The good thing is, we have all the information in the reports. The bad thing is, we have all the information. Maerchen, 2020

Came for SE. Will stay for SE.

(in reply to Dampfnudel)
Post #: 23
RE: Which techs are critical? - 5/20/2021 6:54:32 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		Okay, decisions are a no-go after all.
Default decision does not mater. The Secretary can overwrite it, even if there are no Profile weights on anything. If those end up costing Fatepoints I can not accept that.

So, the next best thing would be Fate Stratagem Cards. But I would have to add those cards to the already overflowing "Nation" Tab.

(in reply to Maerchen)
Post #: 24
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