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RE: Fair Theft?

 
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RE: Fair Theft? - 6/29/2021 10:33:15 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		I agree. If the original designer gives permission then fine. Otherwise, make your own scenario. Don't change someone else's to suite your opinions and goals. You have no idea why the decisions were made for the original design, and that includes the map and unit colors.

Certainly there won't be lawsuits. This is the realm of gentlemen. Except for Daniel

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 31
RE: Fair Theft? - 7/1/2021 6:16:29 AM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 454
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline 		This a peculiar discussion as theft is with the intention of depriving the owner of it permanently.
So a reworked scenario crediting the original creator is not a theft. And since there is no money involved creator's wishes are of "gentlemen agreement".

The bottom line is being reasonable.

_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 32
RE: Fair Theft? - 7/1/2021 10:48:17 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2

This a peculiar discussion as theft is with the intention of depriving the owner of it permanently.





_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 33
RE: Fair Theft? - 7/1/2021 10:18:25 PM   
DD696

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline 		Lots of words that have very little meaning here. If I cannot modify a scenario which I need does not suit me and do it for my own enjoyment, then I will never pay for a game that prohibits that joy that war games give me. Just because a scenario designer presents us with a scenario does not mean that it is a perfect solution to the situation involved. The scenario designer is not a god - neither am I, but if I do not enjoy playing it and find that it is lacking in whatever I deem to be inaccurate, then I should be free to correct whatever deficiencies that offend my sense of what I enjoy.

But, I am just a Marine that knows nothing.

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977. A United States Marine.
We don't take kindly to idjits.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 34
RE: Fair Theft? - 7/2/2021 12:02:51 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		No one said you can't. What happens to a Marine who doesn't pay attention?

< Message edited by Lobster -- 7/2/2021 12:03:27 AM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to DD696)
Post #: 35
RE: Fair Theft? - 7/2/2021 1:31:16 AM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1990
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I agree. If the original designer gives permission then fine. Otherwise, make your own scenario. Don't change someone else's to suite your opinions and goals. You have no idea why the decisions were made for the original design, and that includes the map and unit colors.

Certainly there won't be lawsuits. This is the realm of gentlemen. Except for Daniel


Gentlemen usually can distinguish between Fair Use and Copyright Infringement. Others ... not so much.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 36
RE: Fair Theft? - 7/2/2021 2:26:12 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I agree. If the original designer gives permission then fine. Otherwise, make your own scenario. Don't change someone else's to suite your opinions and goals. You have no idea why the decisions were made for the original design, and that includes the map and unit colors.

Certainly there won't be lawsuits. This is the realm of gentlemen. Except for Daniel


Gentlemen usually can distinguish between Fair Use and Copyright Infringement. Others ... not so much.


I highly doubt if you can even get a registered copyright for a scenario. Why do you keep talking about copyright? It was about rights, as in whats right. Someone should be able to make a scenario and expect people to uphold their rights as the creator. You are the one who keeps going off about copyrights and fair use.



_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 37
RE: Fair Theft? - 7/2/2021 4:01:56 AM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1540
Joined: 2/17/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

But, I am just a Marine that knows nothing.


Boot.

Missed the point. It’s not about changing a scenario to fit one’s preference, it’s about changing and then posting the change as community property. There is a protocol to be observed.

Regards



_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to DD696)
Post #: 38
RE: Fair Theft? - 7/2/2021 4:19:47 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

Gentlemen usually can distinguish between Fair Use and Copyright Infringement.

Over 20 years of TOAW and never once a mention of Copyright or Fair Use issues. As Lobster states, you are off on the wrong foot.

Scenario Designers can choose to give their scenario(s) to the community for Free Use or not. Forget laws concerning Copyright or Fair Use. If a scenario is Not given permission for use, then ask Matrix if they will include it in an official release. You know the answer.

Personally, I've spent a lot of my life researching for scenario design, and if somebody doesn't like it then like I said before, make your own, don't butcher my design, even if it is to change unit colors (which may have been meticulously researched and who cares if somebody doesn't like it?). Copyright and Fair Use has no bearing.

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 7/2/2021 4:24:22 AM >

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 39
Permissions & Orphans - 7/2/2021 5:14:46 AM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1540
Joined: 2/17/2002
Status: offline 		I think there is agreement that it is proper to first receive the author’s permission before posting a modified scenario. But what about scenarios that have been orphaned? If a legitimate search for the original author does not yield a result, I for one have no problem with posting a modified scenario. Proper acknowledgement of the original author’s work is of course required.

Regards


_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 40
RE: Permissions & Orphans - 7/2/2021 8:35:37 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

I think there is agreement that it is proper to first receive the author’s permission before posting a modified scenario. But what about scenarios that have been orphaned? If a legitimate search for the original author does not yield a result, I for one have no problem with posting a modified scenario. Proper acknowledgement of the original author’s work is of course required.



Yes I think if the designer is uncontactable and proper acknowledgement is given then this has to be considered abandonware. The only consideration is if the designer subsequently shows up they have the right to ask you to take your version down (though in practice this is not likely). The question of what constitutes a "legitimate search" would be up to individual consciences; as most designers include an email address in the briefing that's at least a place to start.

There's another matter here which is posting unaltered scenarios without the designer's consent, where the scenario may have been shared privately without actually being published. For example, I note there's an outdated version of Fall Grau available on at least one site.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to rhinobones)
Post #: 41
RE: Permissions & Orphans - 7/2/2021 3:09:55 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1990
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

I think there is agreement that it is proper to first receive the author’s permission before posting a modified scenario. But what about scenarios that have been orphaned? If a legitimate search for the original author does not yield a result, I for one have no problem with posting a modified scenario. Proper acknowledgement of the original author’s work is of course required.



Yes I think if the designer is uncontactable and proper acknowledgement is given then this has to be considered abandonware. The only consideration is if the designer subsequently shows up

>>>>they have the right to ask you to take your version down (though in practice this is not likely<<<<<.

The question of what constitutes a "legitimate search" would be up to individual consciences; as most designers include an email address in the briefing that's at least a place to start.

There's another matter here which is posting unaltered scenarios without the designer's consent, where the scenario may have been shared privately without actually being published. For example, I note there's an outdated version of Fall Grau available on at least one site.


Correct. They *do* have that right to ask you to take a modified version down, or to ask that you not distribute the modified version.

And one would be within one's OWN right to decline that request, because one has a RIGHT to use their work under the Fair Use doctrine.

Fair Use: not kid stuff.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 42
RE: Permissions & Orphans - 7/2/2021 4:36:48 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

I think there is agreement that it is proper to first receive the author’s permission before posting a modified scenario. But what about scenarios that have been orphaned? If a legitimate search for the original author does not yield a result, I for one have no problem with posting a modified scenario. Proper acknowledgement of the original author’s work is of course required.



Yes I think if the designer is uncontactable and proper acknowledgement is given then this has to be considered abandonware. The only consideration is if the designer subsequently shows up

>>>>they have the right to ask you to take your version down (though in practice this is not likely<<<<<.

The question of what constitutes a "legitimate search" would be up to individual consciences; as most designers include an email address in the briefing that's at least a place to start.

There's another matter here which is posting unaltered scenarios without the designer's consent, where the scenario may have been shared privately without actually being published. For example, I note there's an outdated version of Fall Grau available on at least one site.


Correct. They *do* have that right to ask you to take a modified version down, or to ask that you not distribute the modified version.

And one would be within one's OWN right to decline that request, because one has a RIGHT to use their work under the Fair Use doctrine.

Fair Use: not kid stuff.


There you go again with that fair use mumbo jumbo. No one cares about fair use except you. Right and wrong is the issue. Who would take someone's work, change it up and then put it out there without caring about the person who took all the effort to do the hard work. What kind of person does that or even thinks about doing that?

I asked the guys who made FitE1 and 2 if I could use the map they made for FitE1. They said no. Fine. I made my own. That's the right way to do it. You on the other hand would evidently say screw you I'm using it anyway.

Oh, and then you would brag about an AAR.

My 10km per hex map:





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lobster -- 7/2/2021 4:39:58 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 43
RE: Permissions & Orphans - 7/2/2021 4:57:24 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


Correct. They *do* have that right to ask you to take a modified version down, or to ask that you not distribute the modified version.

And one would be within one's OWN right to decline that request, because one has a RIGHT to use their work under the Fair Use doctrine.

Fair Use: not kid stuff.


Fair use is intended to protect using portions of a work for personal, academic and review purposes, not for wholesale copy/pasting. For example, I included a screenshot of Brian Topp's France 1940 in my dissertation: that's fair use. I include screenshots in my AARs: that's fair use.

Uploading the whole scenario without at least attempting to get the permission of the author: not fair use.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 7/2/2021 5:00:35 PM >

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 44
RE: Permissions & Orphans - 7/2/2021 9:14:43 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 454
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline 		I think this gone beyond reasonable.

Literally if a Matrix would say they do not want you to post the scenarios made with editor how much legal value would it held?
None.
They could only limit the commercial use.

And the same goes for a user. You want your scenario to be "limited" then ask Matrix to include it in the game. Otherwise do not post it as anyone has the right to modify the way they like it and repost it (giving you the credit).
It is simple as that.

Seems like some of you are forgetting that amending a scenario also requires (some work).

_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 45
RE: Permissions & Orphans - 7/2/2021 10:16:36 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

what constitutes a "legitimate search"

May I suggest:
1. Contact thru the method the author put in the Scenario Briefing [usually an e-mail address].
2. Post a thread here discussing possible modifications to the scenario and ask if anyone knows how to contact the author.
3. Web Search for the Author.
4. Wait 31 days. If no contact from the author, consider the scenario abandoned and proceed as you wish. I understand that some may disagree with this part and would rather leave a scenario alone if the author cannot be contacted, but that would possibly leave some scenarios buried, never to be seen again, which would probably be a shame.

Consider that some scenario designers have passed away, and a few others don't care about TOAW anymore.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 46
RE: Permissions & Orphans - 7/25/2021 6:32:15 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		I was browsing a user guide for one of McBride's scenarios, and when I saw this comment of his, this thread sprung immediately to mind.

quote:

I have not asked Pentland’s permission to add his painting here but assume he would not mind, as this is a non-profit work on my part.


Cheers

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 47
RE: Permissions & Orphans - 7/27/2021 1:22:04 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

what constitutes a "legitimate search"?

May I suggest:
1. Contact thru the method the author put in the Scenario Briefing [usually an e-mail address].
2. Post a thread here discussing possible modifications to the scenario and ask if anyone knows how to contact the author.
3. Web Search for the Author.
4. Wait 31 days. If no contact from the author, consider the scenario abandoned and proceed as you wish. I understand that some may disagree with this part and would rather leave a scenario alone if the author cannot be contacted, but that would possibly leave some scenarios buried, never to be seen again, which would probably be a shame.

Consider that some scenario designers have passed away, and a few others don't care about TOAW anymore.

Steve, I agree those four items should constitute due diligence to find the original author. I would add that the modified scenario should contain an acknowledgment to the original author.



_____________________________

Avatar image was taken in hex 87,159 Vol 11 of
Vietnam Combat Operations by Stéphane MOUTIN LUYAT aka Boonierat.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 48
RE: Permissions & Orphans - 7/27/2021 8:49:49 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

I was browsing a user guide for one of McBride's scenarios, and when I saw this comment of his, this thread sprung immediately to mind.

quote:

I have not asked Pentland’s permission to add his painting here but assume he would not mind, as this is a non-profit work on my part.


Cheers


That's pretty funny. I wanted to use one of West Point's excellent campaign maps as the cover image for my BA dissertation, and I made sure to ask West Point's permission before doing it.

Why would you "assume" without even asking? Fine if you ask and get no reply but....

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 49
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