Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

There is a bug here. The German plane should not get a surprise bonus, so should contribute 3/2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2, so the total air should be 8, not 9.

(Wow, those colors are confusing.)

Even worse. By flying the German plane there is no Italian surprise. Should be 4.5 added.

Is that so? never heard that before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Yeah - or just read the first paragraph of the rule - works too.

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with."

You cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. Flying the German bomber means the Italians do not get surprise effects because the defender is not surprised.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Yeah - or just read the first paragraph of the rule - works too.

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with."

You cannot be surprised and not surprised at the same time. Flying the German bomber means the Italians do not get surprise effects because the defender is not surprised.

Paul, you read this rule differently than I do. I see no reason why you can not be surprised and not surprised at the same time.

I play that the Italians get surprise benefits, the Germans don't. The presence of the German plane means that interception of the attacking aircraft is legal, though, involving all Axis planes. Also, in a naval combat the presence of a non-surprising enemy unit means you aren't surprised.

This question is not asked in my copy of the FAQ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It states in the rules there is no surprise if a unit (that otherwise would get a surprise benefit) overflies hexes controlled by a country the victim is already at war with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Here is another rather infamous situation. Early game, Italy declares war on France only. CW prepare to do a surprise DoW ala Pearl Harbour attack on the Italian fleet, but in the meantime a German sub has gone to sea and returned to same major port where Italy has its fleet. Italy now ignores the CW surprise potential because if the CW port strikes, the Axis will simply announce the German sub is included (after all what hero would hide in a bomb proof sub pen?) and surprise, surprise; there ain't no surprise when the CW port strikes.

So tell me - why is surprise negated when the defending force includes units already at war but not negated when the attacking force does??

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Here is another rather infamous situation. Early game, Italy declares war on France only. CW prepare to do a surprise DoW ala Pearl Harbour attack on the Italian fleet, but in the meantime a German sub has gone to sea and returned to same major port where Italy has its fleet. Italy now ignores the CW surprise potential because if the CW port strikes, the Axis will simply announce the German sub is included (after all what hero would hide in a bomb proof sub pen?) and surprise, surprise; there ain't no surprise when the CW port strikes.

So tell me - why is surprise negated when the defending force includes units already at war but not negated when the attacking force does??

I don't know. Designer choice, I guess? An oversight by the designer, possibly? To put it bluntly: it's not stated in RAW...

quote:

NAVAL UNITS
If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."


But MWIF isn't based on CE, so RAW7 should take preference, IMHO.

quote:

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are at war with someone else.

However they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with.

Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over, hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse."

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianJH

I agree with Paul on this.

Surprise bonuses are applied depending on the defending units (surprise) status.

Rule 15.0 (RAW7) make it clear what this status is.

quote:

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are at war with someone else.

However they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with.

Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over, hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse."

As for the example in the original post, the last sentence applies here. The German aircraft flew from Germany, of which Germany was at war with France the previous impulse. Hence, the units being attacked are not surprised.

Attacking units don't claim surprise, it's a status applied to the defender, so any other units participating in the attack do not receive surprise bonuses, because the defending units are not surprised!!

Brian.

quote:

Hence, the units being attacked are not surprised.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

So here's a hypothetical question for y'all (whether or not you've had one or more beers so far).

Suppose there is French HQ adjacent to and behind the units being attacked in this example. It wants to use HQ support but the rules say surprised HQs can't do that. Can it provide HQ support - if so, why? If not - why not?

Let's say there's room in one of the hexes for the Germans to ATR in a mountain unit to also join in the land attack along with an Italian unit that is there and let's say that this attacking hex is across a river from the defender. Does this change anything regarding the HQ support?