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Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/13/2021 7:25:22 PM

Kriegsspieler

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I've been studying where Germany's stores of freight are and how they move around at the start of the game. Prague and Vienna start with very large stockpiles, with 2,500,000 units each. At the rate they empty in the first few turns, it would take maybe 35 turns for Vienna to empty out, and nearly 100 for Prague. And that's not taking into account the freight that flows into both cities.

Another conspicuous feature at game start is the large empty space that exists between Germany's supply sources and the front. So I began to experiment with building depots to fill in that gap, and I think having a network of them does help move more supplies forward at a faster rate. I haven't studied this systematically, but it is clear that having a bunch of intermediate depots does allow good quantities of freight be stored closer to the front than without them. (The manual says this, I believe)

So that leads my my main question. Why is there such a large gap in the chain of depots between the supply sources and the front line at game start? Was Germany's logistical preparation really that poor in June of 1941? A German player can certainly fill it in over a number of turns, but it soaks up AP's at a rate that puts any thought of replacing officers out of the question for quite a while!

Post #: 1

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/13/2021 10:21:15 PM

AlbertN

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Prague and Vienna and other NSS do not have real large stockpiles.
They're virtual stockpiles generated each turn. Not real supplies.
Thus each single turn they'll have 2.5 M of Freight to be shipped around. Even in 1945 til they can function.

The manual is pretty clear in the workabout of the 'freight', how it is a virtual currency that transforms later on demand in supply, fuel, ammo or replacements. So a suggested read.
Thus Freight that lacks let's say Supplies in the real 'Supply' stock ... won't convert in supply.
The Freight needed for a Rifle Squad (Still got to send that upfront as replacement) could be there but if there is the lack of manpower / armaments required to form up a Rifle Squad, the Freight remains virtual.

On the other hand how the Freight Shipping system works, that's a nightmare and a puzzle to me.
I feel Axis logistics are exceedingly artificially crippled, when Panzer Divisions cannot refit adequately in Poland or Romania even, among other things I perceive as issues.

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)

Post #: 2

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/14/2021 12:59:14 AM

Yogol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

Why is there such a large gap in the chain of depots between the supply sources and the front line at game start? Was Germany's logistical preparation really that poor in June of 1941?

I have yet to see hard evidence that those intermediate depots help. In my(limited) experience, the two limiting factors for the Axis are railroads and armaments, not depots.

Consider these two options (R= Railroad, D = Depot).

a) D0 R1 R2 D3 R4 R5 D6 R7 R8 D9
b) D0 R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 D9

The limiting factor to get stuff to D9 will always be the capacity of railroad R7 and R8, the last ones to near D9. It doesn't matter if the freight has to come from D0 or D6, it always had to pass R7 and R8 anyway.

Now, it is true that you build a D6 and fill it up but that gives you less stuff in D9 if the capacity of R4 and R5 is the same as R7 and R8 (like it is in the beginning of the game when all those Rs are perfectly repaired and all fully-functioning).

< Message edited by Yogol -- 8/14/2021 1:10:56 AM >

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)

Post #: 3

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/14/2021 1:05:18 AM

AlbertN

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I am not sure IF they help in that example but:

A) As one advances one establishes Depots. So unless on disband depots, they'll be there over the railroad.
B) If one retreats and their D9 depot is seized, to have a D6 present will help the next logistic phase!

So in the end of the day, if one has trucks for, to have a net of depots will help.

(in reply to Yogol)

Post #: 4

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/14/2021 1:21:59 AM

IanW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

when Panzer Divisions cannot refit adequately in Poland or Romania even, among other things I perceive as issues.

Do you have historical example of Panzer divisions refitting - not resting, refitting - in Poland or Rumania ?

(in reply to AlbertN)

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RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/14/2021 1:28:59 AM

AlbertN

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What kind of question is that?

Historically Soviets never mauled in '41 to about armoured annihilation a panzer division. That can happen in WITE2 since Soviets are quite operationally capable.

You cannot ask for historical evidence for something that historically has not happened.

What you need to ask yourself is 'Can Germany put one or more tanks on a train and ferry them to Location X'?
The answer is yes. The variable is how many tanks can be ferried in a determined time (Turn), if tanks are at avail, etc.

But I am quite confident armoured replacements can arrive to Poland or Romania exactly in the same way the units were originally deployed.

(in reply to IanW)

Post #: 6

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/14/2021 1:59:33 AM

IanW

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Actual historical records show many of the German panzer divisions in November 1941 down to double digits of operational tanks.

So yeah. You want the heer to operate without reference to logistical reality - you want the new tanks instantly where you want them, when you want them, and you don't want to be told by the supply service that's impossible.

It's all very fitting for how German generals thought.

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Post #: 7

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/14/2021 2:43:08 AM

fcam1387

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Not intending to hijack, but I have also noted that in its initial displacement, Germany has many supply depots and import / export ports to the west of its NSS which seem to be drawing freight away from the eastern front.

Should these depots / ports be removed or set to 0? What are the point of these depots? When you remove them the AI assist feature adds them.

(in reply to IanW)

Post #: 8

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/14/2021 10:00:44 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcam1387

Not intending to hijack, but I have also noted that in its initial displacement, Germany has many supply depots and import / export ports to the west of its NSS which seem to be drawing freight away from the eastern front.

Should these depots / ports be removed or set to 0? What are the point of these depots? When you remove them the AI assist feature adds them.

you might as well but they don't make much difference.

What is missing in the discussion above is the logistics system has 3 parts that feed into what arrives at a depot. The 2 obvious ones are depot processing capacity and rail line capacity. The last one that gets overlooked is demand.

In the main a depot won't claim much if there is no local demand, so a priority #4 at say Brandenburg in 1941 will only take a little bit - probably related to supplying new arrivals, while if the capacity rules were all that mattered it would fill up and stay filled up.

A good place to test this is to use Stal-Berlin, simply do it solitaire so no moves etc. Create/set a load of depots in the Reich to say priority #3, they actually won't have much freight after a few turns as there is not much local demand for that freight.

So to take:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

Why is there such a large gap in the chain of depots between the supply sources and the front line at game start? Was Germany's logistical preparation really that poor in June of 1941?

I have yet to see hard evidence that those intermediate depots help. In my(limited) experience, the two limiting factors for the Axis are railroads and armaments, not depots.

Consider these two options (R= Railroad, D = Depot).

a) D0 R1 R2 D3 R4 R5 D6 R7 R8 D9
b) D0 R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 D9

The limiting factor to get stuff to D9 will always be the capacity of railroad R7 and R8, the last ones to near D9. It doesn't matter if the freight has to come from D0 or D6, it always had to pass R7 and R8 anyway.

Now, it is true that you build a D6 and fill it up but that gives you less stuff in D9 if the capacity of R4 and R5 is the same as R7 and R8 (like it is in the beginning of the game when all those Rs are perfectly repaired and all fully-functioning).

thats the key, the intermediate depots will not naturally claim very much. What they will pick is up is freight that lacks the SMP to reach the depot it was aimed for, so they will usually only pick up a bit.

On the other hand, a rear depot set to #4 and with your transport planes clustered around will fill up and can be a very efficient tool to push freight into the front line sectors

_____________________________

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Post #: 9

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/15/2021 7:11:10 AM

Yogol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

Why is there such a large gap in the chain of depots between the supply sources and the front line at game start? Was Germany's logistical preparation really that poor in June of 1941?

I have yet to see hard evidence that those intermediate depots help. In my(limited) experience, the two limiting factors for the Axis are railroads and armaments, not depots.

Consider these two options (R= Railroad, D = Depot).

a) D0 R1 R2 D3 R4 R5 D6 R7 R8 D9
b) D0 R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 D9

The limiting factor to get stuff to D9 will always be the capacity of railroad R7 and R8, the last ones to near D9. It doesn't matter if the freight has to come from D0 or D6, it always had to pass R7 and R8 anyway.

Now, it is true that you build a D6 and fill it up but that gives you less stuff in D9 if the capacity of R4 and R5 is the same as R7 and R8 (like it is in the beginning of the game when all those Rs are perfectly repaired and all fully-functioning).

thats the key, the intermediate depots will not naturally claim very much. What they will pick is up is freight that lacks the SMP to reach the depot it was aimed for, so they will usually only pick up a bit.

On the other hand, a rear depot set to #4 and with your transport planes clustered around will fill up and can be a very efficient tool to push freight into the front line sectors

I admit that I have yet to examine the usage of transport planes. But, indeed, if you have a 4-depot that is not on the rail, those planes might be a nice addition to the supply.

That being said... before I delve into planes, I still have to learn more about the capacity of depots, it still eludes me why a 4-depot doesn't get filled to full capacity if it is the only 4-depot around. I suspect it has something to do with railyards, but I need to check this.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 10

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/15/2021 9:30:32 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol
... I still have to learn more about the capacity of depots, it still eludes me why a 4-depot doesn't get filled to full capacity if it is the only 4-depot around. I suspect it has something to do with railyards, but I need to check this.

Because in the end the logistics model is one based around shortages, especially of delivery. there is a thread in the war-room forum that I'd suggest reading as well as the discusion in the player's notes section of the Manual

_____________________________

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Post #: 11

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/15/2021 10:58:13 AM

Yogol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol
... I still have to learn more about the capacity of depots, it still eludes me why a 4-depot doesn't get filled to full capacity if it is the only 4-depot around. I suspect it has something to do with railyards, but I need to check this.

Because in the end the logistics model is one based around shortages, especially of delivery. there is a thread in the war-room forum that I'd suggest reading as well as the discusion in the player's notes section of the Manual

I didn't mean "why did they implement this", I am not so much interested in the meta-game (as interesting as that might be).

I mean how it exactly works: what EXACTLY determines how many freight goes through a rail line to a front depot.

Even if (for testing purposes) I set one single super-depot on 4 and all the others depots on the on 0, the one depot will STILL receive less freight then it's capacity. I didn't expect this.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 12

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/15/2021 1:25:40 PM

carlkay58

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Yogol:

1) During the logistics phase the supply depots request freight from the rear depending on the amount of freight nearby units will require.

2) The higher the priority the more requests will be made.

3) Once the depot has received as much freight as its priorities and requests can be bring in, then the freight is shipped off to the units that are requesting it.

4) Each time a freight request is made, the rail link has some of its capacity used -> there are many modifiers to this usage along with at least one random effect in each rail hex yielding different rail usage in each hex.

5) The freight capacity of a railyard is dependent on both its own railyard level as well as the railyard levels within 30 linked rail hexes. To get maximum flow of freight and capacity through your supply net you should have depots in major railyard cities (i.e. anything over railyard level 1) along various connected rail lines. Make sure these are within 30 hexes of another major depot (level 2 or 3) and so on back to as many National Supply Sources as you can. This is an area that both the Axis and Soviets will have to build up from scratch as the 41C does not include such a supply net at the start of the scenario.

6) You want as many rail link pathways as possible in your supply net. This allows the freight path to include many different possible paths and avoid building up a bottleneck.

7) Every depot, other than the ones on a National Supply Source, should be at least level 1 to generate some demand that will draw supplies to it.

8) You should NOT have a shallow shell of priority 4 depots near the front. You want a band of at least three or more in order to pull as much freight as possible within range of the front line units. If you have too shallow of a shell, the front depots are quickly emptied by the front line units and many units will have to request supplies from very far away to the rear. This is deadly to both your front line logistics, your truck pool, and your unit trucks. The unit truck usage will also kill your unit MPs.

9) There is no science telling you how to do this. It is an art form that improves with experience. There are many ways to get it right and many ways to get it wrong. Which result you get for the form you use is dependent upon your personal style of play.

Good Luck!

(in reply to Yogol)

Post #: 13

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/15/2021 3:21:46 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IanW

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

when Panzer Divisions cannot refit adequately in Poland or Romania even, among other things I perceive as issues.

Do you have historical example of Panzer divisions refitting - not resting, refitting - in Poland or Rumania ?

https://history.army.mil/html/books/104/104-7/cmhPub_104-7.pdf Just find it interesting. I remember reading that German tanks went everywhere on their own power, but not sure when they started moving them by rail.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 8/15/2021 3:25:59 PM >

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

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Post #: 14

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/15/2021 4:08:34 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol
...
Even if (for testing purposes) I set one single super-depot on 4 and all the others depots on the on 0, the one depot will STILL receive less freight then it's capacity. I didn't expect this.

carlkay has given you a lot of useful information but at the core the supply system consists of 4 parts:

a) capacity to deliver depot - depot = railyards (or trains)
b) capacity to move along a given rail line (= escalating SMP cost/hex = more railyard capacity needed to overcome this)
c) capacity to process freight (depot size, adjusted by HQ placements)
d) demand for freight at that depot (low demand = not much will be sent even if it can)

and then

e) depot - unit (= mostly trucks)
f) can use NKPS/FBD to distort the allocation process (note this does not mean more freight is sent out globally)

Add in, all this goes on in many configurations, hence its an art not a science.

2 big numbers.

In 1941 I reckon the 3 Axis NSS (ignore Frankfurt) will send out around 150k of freight per turn, so that is the very best that can arrive.

I can get something like Minsk as a priority 4 depot to claim around 75% of its capacity if its a super depot. As its a #4 it will tend to store so usually after a couple of turns its full of stored freight.

So do you have depot capacity to process the 150k? Carlkay's point about many depots is relevant here. Do you have the railway capacity to bring that to where you need it.

Have you set your HQ supply priorities (ie demand) with that global number in mind?

_____________________________

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RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/15/2021 6:48:36 PM

OberGeneral

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Thanks for the link.

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RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/16/2021 6:24:35 AM

Yogol

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Thank you, CarlKay and Loki. It is more clear now!

I got confused by the fact that in my test setup (one single depot at the front, all the rest on 0) the front units drew supply from far-away depots, which I thought should not be possible because they all were set to 0.
But it turns out that that were depots that still had supply in them from previous turns, so that explains some of the confusion.

Aside from that... it seems that in 1941,the Axis will use ALOT ALOT of trucks to get supply from the depots to the units. I see that I used a total of 19161 trucks on T6 to get freight from depot to depot and a staggering 48225 unit trucks to get the supply to units!

(in reply to OberGeneral)

Post #: 17

RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/17/2021 11:34:24 AM

fcam1387

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Thanks, Loki.

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RE: Germany's Supply Network at Game Start - 8/17/2021 11:42:06 AM

Kriegsspieler

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I want to thank carlkay and Loki as well. It doesn't completely answer my original quetion about whether it makes sense to have a denser network of supply depots between the sources and the front, but as carlkay says, only practice can entirely provide a satisfactory answer.

(in reply to fcam1387)

Post #: 19