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Planes in the Philippines - 8/18/2021 9:12:14 PM   
ggeilman

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline 		It is Dec 23, 1941 and I am wondering whether it is worth trying to get any of the planes out of the Philippines. Seems like a lot of points to me. Especially the B17s that will all be withdrawn in 42. Thoughts?
Post #: 1
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/18/2021 9:19:00 PM   
RangerJoe


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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman

It is Dec 23, 1941 and I am wondering whether it is worth trying to get any of the planes out of the Philippines. Seems like a lot of points to me. Especially the B17s that will all be withdrawn in 42. Thoughts?


If at all possible, do so.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to ggeilman)
Post #: 2
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/19/2021 4:56:45 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		B-17s are excellent in Naval Search when you have shortage of Catalinas, so by all means evacuate them.

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RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/19/2021 5:17:54 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		It may be better to withdraw those planes early, since they will withdraw anyway. By doing so you will gain PP's.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/19/2021 10:08:14 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		They will be the ONLY fighters you have to defend Australia for the first 6 months of the war.

Sure the fighters pull out by summer, but having them to defend Australia during a very critical period when the continent is otherwise completely devoid of fighters is golden.

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Hans


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Post #: 5
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/19/2021 1:18:32 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman
It is Dec 23, 1941 and I am wondering whether it is worth trying to get any of the planes out of the Philippines. Seems like a lot of points to me. Especially the B17s that will all be withdrawn in 42. Thoughts?

Philippines B17-Ds are one of the few allied units that can seriously spoil JFB mood in the first months of war. Their range makes it possible to bomb almost any oil in the DEI theatre as soon as Japan captures it, as well as some major ports. Japan has to divert a lot of resources to counter those guys. And then there is night bombing

(in reply to ggeilman)
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RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/19/2021 5:14:12 PM   
drum_taps

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 2/12/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman
It is Dec 23, 1941 and I am wondering whether it is worth trying to get any of the planes out of the Philippines. Seems like a lot of points to me. Especially the B17s that will all be withdrawn in 42. Thoughts?

Philippines B17-Ds are one of the few allied units that can seriously spoil JFB mood in the first months of war. Their range makes it possible to bomb almost any oil in the DEI theatre as soon as Japan captures it, as well as some major ports. Japan has to divert a lot of resources to counter those guys. And then there is night bombing

This is something I am going to try in my next game. In my current game, where I am now at Nov 30 1942, I wish I had earlier fought harder. I did not do mass withdrawals, but I did let the US Army in the Philippines sit static, but I did buy out the B-17s. Next time I won't.

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Post #: 7
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/20/2021 12:18:25 AM   
GetAssista

 

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Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: drum_taps
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Philippines B17-Ds are one of the few allied units that can seriously spoil JFB mood in the first months of war. Their range makes it possible to bomb almost any oil in the DEI theatre as soon as Japan captures it, as well as some major ports. Japan has to divert a lot of resources to counter those guys. And then there is night bombing

This is something I am going to try in my next game. In my current game, where I am now at Nov 30 1942, I wish I had earlier fought harder. I did not do mass withdrawals, but I did let the US Army in the Philippines sit static, but I did buy out the B-17s. Next time I won't.

But you do buy them out specifically for their usefulness (in human games of course, don't bother against AI). Else they would sit on Clark and repair ad infinitum under Japanese bombings. Their strength is range AND mobility.

(in reply to drum_taps)
Post #: 8
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/20/2021 10:31:26 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

They will be the ONLY fighters you have to defend Australia for the first 6 months of the war.



For a moment I thought you were referring to the B-17s. They wouldn't be the ONLY fighters, just the best.

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Post #: 9
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/20/2021 10:36:22 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		What's that saying? The Allied 4E bomber is the best fighter they have.

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Post #: 10
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/21/2021 7:52:28 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		Allied attack bombers make great “fighters” too.
IJ fighter pilots seem to prefer to attack them from the front, straight into the teeth of multiple strafing guns…

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Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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Post #: 11
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/21/2021 8:50:27 PM   
ggeilman

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline 		I am getting as many warhawks out as possible also but they are going to have to transfer from base to base in a lot of transfers. Some of them don't even have drop tanks, grr. Getting a few Cats, too.

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Post #: 12
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/21/2021 10:44:07 PM   
Moltrey


Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Also note Ggeilman that a couple of the P-40 squadrons at Clark have excess pilots. Not only that, but the setup has most of your BEST pilots greyed out (not actively flying). It is up to you to decide if you should use these fairly experienced (for U.S.) pilots to fight the Japanese in the Philippines... or send them to the reserve pool or elsewhere to get some more training and form the core of your future Army pilot pool.
I am sure others will pitch in their opinions on this. Personally, I use them to blunt the Japanese in the PI, but some will die to the better enemy pilots. It's a tough call.

(in reply to ggeilman)
Post #: 13
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/21/2021 10:54:06 PM   
huda0816

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 8/7/2021
From: Austria
Status: offline 		In my game against the AI I bought the B-17s out and left the fighters in the Phillipines. They got a lot of kills and eventually became elite pilots. After the fall of Clark with only Manila and Bataan left I evacuated all pilots by submarine (Sent them to the reserve pool) and disbanded the fighter wings. They are now training the new pilots in the States.

(in reply to Moltrey)
Post #: 14
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/22/2021 4:08:03 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

In my game against the AI I bought the B-17s out and left the fighters in the Phillipines. They got a lot of kills and eventually became elite pilots.


Don't count on this in a PBEM game. There're lots of things you may get away with in an AI game that won't 'fly otherwise'.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to huda0816)
Post #: 15
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/22/2021 11:19:40 PM   
ggeilman

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline 		Christmas eve and running into a log jam with planes coming out of Singapore on Java. There is only so much room on the airfields to transfer them to Australia and they all have to go through one airbase, Denpasar. 10 ready B-17s in Darwin so far and now a squadron Blenheims. One squadron of Warhawks will spend Christmas in Darwin, wiii!!!

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 16
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/23/2021 12:29:22 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman

Christmas eve and running into a log jam with planes coming out of Singapore on Java. There is only so much room on the airfields to transfer them to Australia and they all have to go through one airbase, Denpasar. 10 ready B-17s in Darwin so far and now a squadron Blenheims. One squadron of Warhawks will spend Christmas in Darwin, wiii!!!


You can overstack the airfields just be careful if they can be attacked.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to ggeilman)
Post #: 17
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/23/2021 10:45:39 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		Have you discovered that if you let the rump of those squadrons be destroyed on the ground (take out all the pilots) that you can buy them back - and they come back without a withdraw date?

I have the 34th FS flying Mustangs in 1945 - it started life as the 35th PG/34th PS at Clark field, with a June 1942 withdraw date. It is the P-35 Squadron.

And before anyone demands another pro Japanese house rule, this is obviously intentional on the part of the designers - they built in the designation change.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 8/23/2021 10:46:36 AM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/23/2021 5:20:52 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Have you discovered that if you let the rump of those squadrons be destroyed on the ground (take out all the pilots) that you can buy them back - and they come back without a withdraw date?

I have the 34th FS flying Mustangs in 1945 - it started life as the 35th PG/34th PS at Clark field, with a June 1942 withdraw date. It is the P-35 Squadron.

And before anyone demands another pro Japanese house rule, this is obviously intentional on the part of the designers - they built in the designation change.


I wouldn't jump too quickly to that conclusion re the intentions of the devs.

The entire air OOB was developed when destroyed air units couldn't be repurchased. The dev who did that work was no longer involved when the resurrection was subsequently introduced.

It might, just sayin', that when the ability to resurrect dead LCUs was introduced post AE release, the dev with overall responsibility for the land OOB, still remained with the team. You can't repurchase dead LCUs which were scheduled for withdrawal.

Alfred

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 19
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/23/2021 7:19:32 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Alfred is correct I wasnt overly happy with the buy back of destroyed units but finally got comfortable with it for 4 reasons

1. So many un natural acts were happening to rescue fragments it was the lesser evil
2. Aus and Indian units impacted are kindo of self correctign - rebuild the 11th Indian Div feel free you will be short of most CW devices to replace combat losses
3. japanese LCU's destroyed tend to be later in war where its a choice to replace them via industry or save points for other units
4. It helped the AI be more competitive

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 20
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/23/2021 8:06:33 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Some destroyed units were actually rebuilt such as the 4th Marines and the 31st Infantry.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 21
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/23/2021 9:03:51 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		And are included in the TOE of the marine Divs so the 4th marine Regt if rebuilt is an 'extra'

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Post #: 22
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/23/2021 9:12:07 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Also was 31st regt rebuilt during the war ??

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Post #: 23
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/23/2021 9:12:33 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		You can't rebuild the 4th Marine Regiment. It comes in as a normal reinforcement, the destroyed one is not able to be bought out.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 8/23/2021 9:13:13 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/24/2021 1:27:15 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		You can buy out the 4th Marines but they disappear. I think that the 31st Infantry was rebuilt as part of a division.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 25
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/24/2021 1:28:13 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		To improve the Philippines defense, why not make the Philippines division?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 26
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/24/2021 2:55:33 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
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From: Cammeraygal Country
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

And are included in the TOE of the marine Divs so the 4th marine Regt if rebuilt is an 'extra'



The original 4th Marines withdraws, so can't be bought back from the dead list,, or so I thought.

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

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Post #: 27
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/24/2021 3:46:03 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Have you discovered that if you let the rump of those squadrons be destroyed on the ground (take out all the pilots) that you can buy them back - and they come back without a withdraw date?


quote:

And before anyone demands another pro Japanese house rule, this is obviously intentional on the part of the designers - they built in the designation change.




Yup another house rule. Just like I would have one against Japan using the 'get around' of bringing the first BB conversions into play in Dec '43.

When will people stop playing the code? In case you're wondering, that's a rhetorical question. Just one more reason I don't PBEM. TBH the main reason is time.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 28
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/24/2021 10:59:19 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Have you discovered that if you let the rump of those squadrons be destroyed on the ground (take out all the pilots) that you can buy them back - and they come back without a withdraw date?


quote:

And before anyone demands another pro Japanese house rule, this is obviously intentional on the part of the designers - they built in the designation change.




Yup another house rule. Just like I would have one against Japan using the 'get around' of bringing the first BB conversions into play in Dec '43.

When will people stop playing the code? In case you're wondering, that's a rhetorical question. Just one more reason I don't PBEM. TBH the main reason is time.



The reason I don't play PBEM any more is a matter of history going back 30 years. It is simply this: The Axis FBs bailing out in 1942 (CWIE) or 1943 (Pacwar) when the tide turned against them.

I appreciate there are some honourable opponents who go the distance, but they are very much the minority in my experience. Hence I stick to the AI.

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

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Post #: 29
RE: Planes in the Philippines - 8/24/2021 3:18:41 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

What's that saying? The Allied 4E bomber is the best fighter they have.


Sending B-17s on a raid is sending the best sweepers you'll ever have.

_____________________________



(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 30
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