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DAK spawn trigger - 8/26/2021 9:50:36 AM   
Will952

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 9/29/2018
Status: offline 		The DAK spawns in different locations according to whether the allies have captured Gazala/Tripoli/Benghazi. However the requirement for those cities to actually be in allied hands makes it open for exploitation. A common one concerns DE 642 - the allies can surround Benghazi, destroy the city and port supply, and either let the DAK spawn into certain death, or force the DAK not to spawn at all (the only sensible option). This, to me, seems evidently outside the spirit of the game.

I suggest two solutions (others more clued up than me may have others);

a) Make the trigger contingent on proximity of allied units rather than control of the city, OR

b) Make the 'No' choice for the DAK events, instead of not spawning at all, spawn at Trieste (downside would be there would be no option to avoid paying for the DAK, but I cannot see any reason why someone wouldn't want to)
Post #: 1
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/26/2021 5:34:10 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		I don't play the Axis but I think there are subsequent DE's so the DAK arrive in Tripoli

From the patch Notes

"four of the Afrika Korps Unit script have been divided into three to reduce the chance of any units
not arriving should enemy units be within the deployment area. These are the ones triggered by
DE 642; DE 647; DE 649 and DE 671."

(in reply to Will952)
Post #: 2
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/27/2021 9:14:47 AM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		The unit scripts can always be further subdivided if required, so that all units will be able to deploy at some point at the designated location.

Unfortunately it isn't possible to base it on the proximity of enemy or friendly forces using condition positions, the whole thing is just too complicated for that and would become far more open to abuse too.

Essentially a different decision fires depending on who controls what at a certain point in time.

Is Benghazi's deployment the main/only point of contention?

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RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/27/2021 1:30:28 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		Why not simply give the Axis player a choice of where they deploy?

1st DE: Do you want to form the AK, if you do they can be deployed near Benghazi, near Tripoli or be formed in Italy. Subsequent DEs will determine where to form them if you choose 'Yes'. Be warned that most of these units will arrive at half strength so it is strongly advisable not to form them close to the front lines. Form the AK: Buttons 'Yes' / 'No'

2nd DE is only triggered if the answer to the 1st DE is 'Yes'
2nd DE: Do you want to form the AK in Libya (Yes) or Italy (No). A subsequent DE will determine where in Libya to form the AK. Buttons 'Yes' / 'No'

3rd DE is only triggered if the answer to the 2nd DE is 'Yes'
3rd DE: Do you want to form the AK near Benghazi (Yes) or near Tripoli (No). Be warned that most of these units will arrive at half strength so it is strongly advisable not to form them close to the front lines. Buttons 'Yes' / 'No'

-----------
Optional: Reduce the cost of deployment if the Axis player chooses to have them deploy in Italy.

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Post #: 4
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/27/2021 4:11:53 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		If I recall there is some complexity in programming this.

Honestly if your opponent is knowingly not taking one of the cities so you are forced to to take the DAK at Benghazi so he can destroy the DAK they are a bum.

This has been a well known glitch in the game for a very long time.




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Post #: 5
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/27/2021 5:45:06 PM   
Will952

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 9/29/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
Is Benghazi's deployment the main/only point of contention?


Yes I'd say so. Spawning at Trieste is never an issue (besides the obvious cost involved in transporting them) but the Benghazi spawn is easily gamed by leaving Benghazi itself open while surrounding it.

Taxman's solution would be quite good, if possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin
Honestly if your opponent is knowingly not taking one of the cities so you are forced to to take the DAK at Benghazi so he can destroy the DAK they are a bum.


I agree - but it doesn't stop people abusing it, unfortunately.

(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 6
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/29/2021 7:02:41 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		Ok, I'll do something to reduce the potential effect of Benghazi being surrounded.

While in principle I'd be happy for there to be more choice, in practice my head is exploding at the thought of how to do it in a way that would be foolproof - there are already 6 different Decisions behind the scenes for the DAK, only one of which will appear in any single game, and doing those was quite some effort in itself.

I think ultimately it just needs a bit more fine tuning with the deployment scripts to render gamey moves less effective, and the good thing is now we can add alternate deployment locations to any scripts it's much more possible to do this than previously.

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Post #: 7
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/29/2021 7:26:08 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		I don't see how hard it would be to implement the chain I described above. That way it is left 100% up to the Axis player. You can have suggest DE2 & DE3 at the start of the turn right before the AK is deployed.
My suggested chain would also eliminate all the existing AK DE/Scripts.

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(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 8
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/30/2021 11:08:53 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		I agree.

If it's programmable the Axis should decide the location of the DAK deployment (Trieste, Tripoli or Benghazi). The position of Allied troops should have no bearing on the Axis decision.

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 9
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 8:33:24 AM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		There would still be quite a bit of work involved, because there is always the possibility that Tripoli or Benghazi are in Allied hands at the time the DE is taken.

For example, for DE 1 there would have to be a DE for when Benghazi, Tripoli and Trieste are in Axis hands, a second for Benghazi being in Allied hands but Tripoli and Trieste being in Axis hands, and a third for Tripoli being in Allied hands, but Benghazi and Trieste being in Axis hands.

So essentially there would have to be three separate strings of DEs, with their own subsequent DEs and ensuing Unit scripts, as otherwise there is a risk that the DAK won't appear at all.

It is certainly a plausible proposition, but it isn't a quick and easy thing to implement.



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Post #: 10
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 12:59:57 PM   
El_Condoro

 

Posts: 251
Joined: 8/3/2019
Status: offline 		What about putting the decision entirely in the Axis player's hands?
Turn 1 (Oct? I'm not sure when the RL decision was made) - Form AK or not?
Turn 2 (Late Oct?) - NA or Italy (Deploy) [Turn 1 DE = Yes]
Turn 3 (Early Nov?) - Benghazi (Deploy) or Tripoli (Deploy) [Turn 2 DE = Yes/NA]
The Axis player can assess the situation and make the decision without the game doing it for them according to where Allied units are.

(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 11
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 1:06:32 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		I don't think so Bill:

DE1: Form the AK? Yes/No. (with additional information text as per above suggestion)
No additional dependencies
DE1 fires when the current existing initial AK DE fires.

DE2: Form the AK in Libya (Y) or Italy (N)? Yes/No. (with additional informational text as per above suggestion)
No additional dependencies
DE2 fires at the beginning of the Axis turn just before the AK units would be placed on the map.
Up to the Axis player to determine if it is safe or not.

DE3: Form the AK near Benghazi (Y) or Tripoli (N)? Yes/No. (with additional informational text as per above suggestion)
Single Dependency of DE2 answer of Yes; No other dependencies
DE3 fires immediately after DE2 Yes option
Up to the Axis player to determine if it is safe or not.

----------------------
I'm sure even rookie players will know if it safe to form the AK in either of the Libyan deployment zones right before said deployment (i.e. no wait time that you could be burned by another Allied turn).

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Post #: 12
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 1:33:33 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		How about would you like to place the DAK?

Yes

There are deployment openings at Trieste, Tripoli, Benghazi or Berlin. Like when many units arrive they are only allowed certain positions.


(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 13
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 2:10:55 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		That is probably an even better solution.

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Post #: 14
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 2:26:45 PM   
El_Condoro

 

Posts: 251
Joined: 8/3/2019
Status: offline 		The decisions are binary, so there would need to be a few made but I think we are saying pretty much the same thing.

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Post #: 15
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 2:30:30 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1066
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline 		Not really

If you say yes you have 4 locations to choose from. Unless because if one is captured it doesn't work.

(in reply to El_Condoro)
Post #: 16
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 2:35:36 PM   
El_Condoro

 

Posts: 251
Joined: 8/3/2019
Status: offline 		To choose from 4 locations with binary choices, you need at least 3 decisions:
1. to deploy the DAK or not Yes/No
2. in NA or Europe Yes/No
3. (Yes) Berlin or Triest Yes/No OR (No) Benghazi or Tripoli Yes/No
There are no branching decisions, unfortunately.

(in reply to PvtBenjamin)
Post #: 17
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 2:58:26 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		PvtBen is saying 1 DE, and when it comes time to deploy the AK just restrict the deploy-able hexes (like when various other event based units show up) to all the possible spots (i.e. Near Benghazi, Near Tripoli, Near Trieste, and added near Berlin) and let the Axis player then pick and choose. Obviously spots that are under Allied control will not be available.

This is probably the easiest and best solution.

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"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

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Post #: 18
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 6:12:37 PM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I don't think so Bill:

DE1: Form the AK? Yes/No. (with additional information text as per above suggestion)
No additional dependencies
DE1 fires when the current existing initial AK DE fires.

DE2: Form the AK in Libya (Y) or Italy (N)? Yes/No. (with additional informational text as per above suggestion)
No additional dependencies
DE2 fires at the beginning of the Axis turn just before the AK units would be placed on the map.
Up to the Axis player to determine if it is safe or not.

DE3: Form the AK near Benghazi (Y) or Tripoli (N)? Yes/No. (with additional informational text as per above suggestion)
Single Dependency of DE2 answer of Yes; No other dependencies
DE3 fires immediately after DE2 Yes option
Up to the Axis player to determine if it is safe or not.

----------------------
I'm sure even rookie players will know if it safe to form the AK in either of the Libyan deployment zones right before said deployment (i.e. no wait time that you could be burned by another Allied turn).


DE 2 will need to check for dependencies though, because we will be criticised in reviews if the game presents a Decision asking if the player wants to form the DAK in North Africa, and the key locations in North Africa are already in Allied hands.

DE 3 too, not only for the same reason (which is far more pertinent here) but also because if it has no dependencies, then it might be that the DAK doesn't arrive.

It's still plausible, but there's not really a way to avoid there being more Decisions in the scripts than the player will potentially see.

< Message edited by BillRunacre -- 8/31/2021 6:15:35 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 8/31/2021 8:26:25 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline 		Honestly at this point I like PvtBen suggestion better anyway.

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"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

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Post #: 20
RE: DAK spawn trigger - 9/1/2021 4:32:39 AM   
El_Condoro

 

Posts: 251
Joined: 8/3/2019
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

PvtBen is saying 1 DE, and when it comes time to deploy the AK just restrict the deploy-able hexes (like when various other event based units show up) to all the possible spots (i.e. Near Benghazi, Near Tripoli, Near Trieste, and added near Berlin) and let the Axis player then pick and choose. Obviously spots that are under Allied control will not be available.

This is probably the easiest and best solution.


I don't think that's possible in this situation. Even if it was, it would mean the player can spread the DAK across all 4 locations. That might not be an issue for simple player choice but it would reduce the historical accuracy of having a DAK, especially if it never arrives in Afrika! :)

To make sure the DAK arrives in a single location out of the 4, multiple DEs are needed tied to unit.txt events. Even though multiple #RESOURCE_LOCATIONS= can be set in a single unit.txt event, the system chooses the first one to use and then we're back where we started.

(like when various other event based units show up) - which ones are you thinking of?

< Message edited by El_Condoro -- 9/1/2021 4:53:48 AM >

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 21
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