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Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game)

 
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Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 8:12:53 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Not sure if I will do full AAR but wanted to get input in my choice its a 200 point game !!!! (never played with that many)

Restrictions no more than 30% on Economy, 30% on Naval and 30% on Air max 20% on Land (although I suspect neither of us will spend that much)

Post #: 1
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 8:13:31 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Nomad has graciously agreed to process the changes (Thank You !!!)

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 2
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 8:18:18 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Not finalised my choices yet but this is my thoughts so far I welcome input - going slightly thematic see if you can spot the theme :)

So 52 points on Economy so far

My logic for going Martlet and Corsair is they are CW nationality which means I can use them with any CW Sqn

The 100k supply at Chungking is to make China a little more resistant

The Oil at Wagga Wagga is to keep my Refineries going after the Oil from DEI ends

E1 Add size 30 (051) Martlet II Factory to UK Box (819) 5
E1 Add size 30 P47D2 Factory to Eastern USA 5
E1 Add size 30 (032) Corsair II Factory to UK Box (819) 5
E1 Add size 30 (032) Corsair II Factory to UK Box (819) 5
E1 Add size 30 F4F-4(#2425) factory at Eastern USA (#615) 5
E1 Add size 30 B-25C (#2295)factory at Eastern USA (#615 10
E1 Add size 15 Beaufighter 1c (163) factory at UK Box (819) 5
E4 Add 50 Oil to Wagga Wagga (base 961) 5
E5 Increase size of Sydney Repair Yard by 30 5
E6 Add 100k supply to Chungking 2

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 3
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 8:21:01 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		My air choices are predicated on facing greatly accelerated japanese air frames so I think I need Thuds and Corsairs early in 43 - so 60 points on air

The at start pool boosts are to get my search up and running (nicked that one from Nomad) and make sure that my Sqns stay usefull

A1 Accelerate P-47D25(#350) by 3 months to 1/44 4.5
A1 Accelerate (430) F4U1-A by 5 months to 7/43 7.5
A1 Accelerate Corsair II (032)by 6 months to 6/43 9
A1 Accelerate P47-D2 by 5 months to 2/43 7.5
A2 Delay Prod end P-47D2(#350) by 3 months 2
A2 Delay Prod end P-47D25(#350) by 3 months 2
A8 Add USAAF 75 x P-47D2(#349) II US FTR HQ(#6784) 2
A8 Add USAAF 75 x P-47D2(#349) II US FTR HQ(#6784) 2
A14 Add 50 SBD-3 to pool 2
A14 Add 50 PBY-4 (#466) to pool 2
A14 Add 50 Albacore (#466) to pool 2
A14 Add 50 Wellington 1c to start pool 2
A14 Add 50 Martlet II to start pool 2
A7 Add 25 Aircraft Sqn Corsair II to 43 1
A7 Add 25 Aircraft Sqn Corsair II to 43 1
A6 Add 25 Aircraft Sqn Corsair II to 44 0.5
A17 Dutch Bomber (142) to Ugrade to (295) B25C USAAF 3
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 3282 1
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4173 1
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4174 1
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4175 1
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4176 1
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4177 1
A13 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4008 1
A14 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4018 1

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 4
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 8:24:44 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Ok this is where the theme becomes clear 58 points on Navy!!!

3 RN Carriers become usefulland dont withdraw

Adding 8 Colossus class in 44 to use all those Corsair II's as mostly fighter platforms

6 Essex Class in 43 to bolster the USN (3 with Air groups and 3 without - I expect to have surpus strike groups by 43 after losses in 42 .....)

Changing 2 CL's and 22 DD's to more usefull classes

N1 Cancel Withdrawal Indomitable 2
N1 Cancel Withdrawal Formidable 2
N1 Cancel Withdrawal Illustrious 2
N7 Change CV Indomitable to Indefategable Class (139) 2
N7 Change CV Formidable to Indefategable Class (139) 2
N7 Change CV Illustrious to Indefategable Class (139) 2
N4 Add 8 CVL to 44 Colossous Class (Magnificent, Leviathen, Hercules, Invincible, Argus, Eagle, Furious, Glorious ) 8
N7 Change Hermes to class Colossous Class (142) 1
N4 Add 3 CV's to 1943 3 x Essex (With Air Groups) 15
N4 Add 3 CV's to 1943 3 x Essex (No Air Groups) 9
N7 HMAS Adeilade to Swiftsure Class 1
N7 Vampire, Tenedos, Express, Electra, Voyager, Stuart, Stronghold, Vendetta, Scout, Thanet and Thracian to Tribal Class 5.5
N7 Marblehead to Cleveland Class 1
N7 Schley, Chew,Whiple, John D Edwards. Alden, Edsell, Barker, Bulmer, Paul Jones, Parrott, Stewart to Gearing Class 5.5

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 5
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 8:27:35 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		last but not least Land - 20 points on Land devices and 8 points to increase PP's by 50 per day

Now I need to check all my math and make sure I have applied it all correctly and also I am going to need to spend my last few points but any thoughts welcome

L1 Increase 25lb gun (#1072) by 13, Increase Valentine III replacenent rate by 12 2
L1 Increase Bren Sections by 13, Increase Vickers Sections by 12 2
L9 Cancel withdrawal of 1st, 2nd & 6th Aus Cav Bde 3
L9 Cancel Withdrawal of 1st NZ Tank Bde 1
L9 Cancel Withdrawal of 267th Armoured Bde 1
L8 Change 1st NZ Tank Bde to temp restricted 1
L5 Add 10th Aus Div in 44 1944 2
L5 Add 2nd US Cavalry Div 1944 2
L5 Add 7th Marine Div 1944 2
L5 Add 8th Marine Div 1944 2
L5 Add 9th Marine Div 1944 2
O1 Add 50 PP per Day (O1 x 2) 8

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 6
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 9:09:32 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		Oil at Wagga Wagga
Why not put the Oil in a hex that had oil underneath, perhaps in or near the Bass Strait instead?
That way it won’t be completely free, you’ll need small TK to get it to the mainland from one of the islands or Tasmania.
If Japan see it then it could become a strategic target.

10th Aus Div was the Newcastle Covering Force from memory, about 2x Bdes I think.
Could you add it earlier in about 1942 as an understrength CMF Div and upgrade it later if you are able to save excess AIF squads?

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 7
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 9:13:50 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I want the Oil in South Australia to avoid giving him free points for bombing it or capturing it !!

Adding a Div in 42 is very very expensive it 4 points and the earliest it can arrive is May 42...

(in reply to jdsrae)
Post #: 8
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 9:31:49 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		From a thematic perspective I really really want to Accelerate the Firefly i love that aircraft as being typicially weird but 6 points to get an aircraft production of 12 per month in mid 44 is simply too much to pay for thematics !!!

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 9
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 9:44:18 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I am spending 25 points on cancelling withdrawals I am wondering if I am better off just paying the 50 points for a no withdrawal game....

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 10
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 9:56:05 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		This is what it look like with a no withdrawal points buy

E1 Add size 30 (051) Martlet II Factory to UK Box (819) 5
E1 Add size 30 P47D2 Factory to Eastern USA 5
E1 Add size 30 (032) Corsair II Factory to UK Box (819) 5
E1 Add size 30 (032) Corsair II Factory to UK Box (819) 5
E1 Add size 30 F4F-4(#2425) factory at Eastern USA (#615) 5
E1 Add size 15 B-25C (#2295)factory at Eastern USA (#615 5
E1 Add size 15 Beaufighter 1c (163) factory at UK Box (819) 5
E4 Add 50 Oil to Wagga Wagga (base 961) 5
E5 Increase size of Sydney Repair Yard by 30 5
E6 Add 100k supply to Chungking 2
A1 Accelerate (430) F4U1-A by 5 months to 7/43 7.5
A1 Accelerate Corsair II (032)by 6 months to 6/43 9
A1 Accelerate P47-D2 by 5 months to 2/43 7.5
A2 Delay Prod end P-47D2(#350) by 3 months 2
A2 Delay Prod end P-47D25(#350) by 3 months 2
A8 Add USAAF 75 x P-47D2(#349) II US FTR HQ(#6784) 43 3
A6 Add USAAF 75 x P-47D2(#349) II US FTR HQ(#6784) 44 2
A14 Add 50 PBY-4 (#466) to pool 2
A14 Add 50 Martlet II to start pool 2
A17 Dutch Bomber (142) to Ugrade to (295) B25C USAAF 3
N7 Change CV Indomitable to Indefategable Class (139) 2
N7 Change CV Formidable to Indefategable Class (139) 2
N7 Change CV Victorious to Indefategable Class (139) 2
N7 Change CV Illustrious to Indefategable Class (139) 2
N4 Add 7 CVL to 44 Colossous Class (Magnificent, Leviathen, Hercules, Argus, Eagle, Furious, Glorious ) 7
N7 Change Hermes to class Colossous Class (142) 1
N4 Add 2 CV's to 1943 2 x Essex (With Air Groups) 10
N4 Add 3 CV's to 1943 3 x Essex (No Air Groups) 9
N7 HMAS Adeilade to Swiftsure Class 1
N7 Vampire, Tenedos, Express, Electra, Voyager, Stuart, Stronghold, Vendetta, Scout, Thanet and Thracian to Tribal Class 5.5
N7 Marblehead to Cleveland Class 1
N7 Schley, Chew,Whiple, John D Edwards. Alden, Edsell, Barker, Bulmer, Paul Jones, Parrott, Stewart to Gearing Class 5.5
L1 Increase 25lb gun (#1072) by 13 2
L1 Increase Valentine III replacenent rate by 12
L1 Increse Bren Sections by 13 2
L1 Increase Vickers Sections by 12
L8 Change 1st NZ Tank Bde to temp restricted 1
L5 Add 2nd Cavalry Div 1944 2
L5 Add 7th Marine Div 1944 2
L5 Add 8th Marine Div 1944 2
O1 Add 25 PP per Day 4
O3 No Withdrawals 50

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 11
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 1:27:11 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		A note on your N4 adding Essex CVs with air groups - why not save a point each and get air groups with no aircraft. You should have plenty of F6Fs and F4U-1As to fill them out

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 12
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 2:25:12 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		I never thought about splitting the 25 replacements into a 12 and 13.

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 13
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 2:48:20 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Not sure why you want more Valentine III tanks. In stock, the Lee/Grant/General Lee/General Grant types started to arrive soon after the Valentines and made that tank moot.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 14
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 5:56:46 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		OK my final list

A mix of Heavy Surface Assets in 41/42 with Gearing and Tribal class DD's replacing older models and 3 Vanguard Class BB's coming into the fray so my early war punch where KB isnt should be much better

Also from March more effective RN Carriers to back up the USN

Big effort to ensure I have decent airframes in early 43 to combat the expected impact of research on the Japanese economy

And a heavy investment in carriers in 43/44 to offset expected losses

We restricted factories to no more than 2 or 10 points max per air frame so that should help manage impact of Japanese research

I may have went too light of land units but I have no idea what my opponent has chosen so will be interesting

Also invested in USAAF Bombers so the Mitchells will help fill out my Sqns

Andy

E1 Add size 30 (051) Martlet II Factory to UK Box (819)
E1 Add size 30 P47D2 Factory to Eastern USA
E1 Add size 30 (032) Corsair II Factory to UK Box (819)
E1 Add size 30 (032) Corsair II Factory to UK Box (819)
E1 Add size 30 F4F-4(#2425) factory at Eastern USA (#615)
E1 Add size 30 B-25C (#2295)factory at Eastern USA (#615
E1 Add size 15 Beaufighter 1c (163) factory at UK Box (819)
E4 Add 50 Oil to Wagga Wagga (base 961)
E5 Increase size of Sydney Repair Yard by 30
E6 Add 100k supply to Chungking

A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 3199
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 3282
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4173
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4174
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4175
A12 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4176
A13 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4008
A14 Cancel Withdrawal Sqn 4018
A1 Accelerate (430) F4U1-A by 9 months to 3/43
A1 Accelerate Corsair II (032)by 10 months to 2/43
A1 Accelerate P47-D2 by 5 months to 2/43
A2 Delay Prod end P-47D2(#349) by 3 months
A2 Delay Prod end P-47D25(#350) by 3 months
A8 Add USAAF 75 x P-47D2(#349) II US FTR HQ(#6784)
A6 Add FAA Corsair II Aircraft Sqns
A14 Add 50 PBY-4 (#466) to pool
A14 Add 50 Martlet II to start pool
A14 Add 50 F4F's
A14 Add 50 Albacore to pool
A14 Add 50 Wellington 1c to start pool

N7 Change CV Indomitable to Indefategable Class (139)
N7 Change CV Formidable to Indefategable Class (139)
N7 Change CV Victorious to Indefategable Class (139)
N7 Change CV Illustrious to Indefategable Class (139)
N7 Change BB Ramillies to Vangard BB
N7 Change BB Royal Sovereign to Vangard BB
N7 Change BB Revenge to Vangard BB
N4 Add Colossus Class CVL to 44 (Class 142)
N4 Add Colossus Class CVL to 44 (Class 142)
N4 Add Colossus Class CVL to 44 (Class 142)
N4 Add Colossus Class CVL to 44 (Class 142)
N4 Add Colossus Class CVL to 44 (Class 142)
N4 Add Colossus Class CVL to 44 (Class 142)
N4 Add Colossus Class CVL to 44 (Class 142)
N4 Add Colossus Class CVL to 44 (Class 142)
N7 Change Hermes to class Colossous Class (142)
N4 Add Essex Class with Air Group
N4 Add Essex Class with Air Group
N4 Add Essex Class with Air Group
N4 Add Essex Class with Air Group
N4 Add Essex Class with NO Air Group
N7 HMAS Adeilade to Swiftsure Class
N7 Vampire, Tenedos, Express, Electra, Voyager, Stuart, Stronghold, Vendetta, Scout, Thanet and Thracian to Tribal Class
N7 Allen and Alwyn Schley, Chew,Whiple, John D Edwards. Alden, Edsell, Barker, Bulmer, Paul Jones, Parrott, Stewart to Gearing Class
N1 Cancel Withdrawal Indomitable
N1 Cancel Withdrawal Formidable
N1 Cancel Withdrawal Illustrious
N1 Cancel Withdrawal Victorious
N1 Cancel Withdrawal Ramilles
N1 Cancel Withdrawal Royal Sovereign
N1 Cancel Withdrawal Revenge
N7 Change Houston to Baltimore Class

L1 Increase 25lb gun (#1072) by 13
L1 Increase Valentine III replacenent rate by 12
L1 Increse Bren Sections by 13
L1 Increase Vickers Sections by 12
L8 Change 1st NZ Tank Bde to temp restricted
L5 Add 2nd Cavalry Div
L5 Add 7th Marine Div
L5 Add 8th Marine Div
L9 Cancel withdrawal of 1st, 2nd & 6th Aus Cav Bde
L9 Cancel Withdrawal of 1st NZ Tank Bde
L9 Cancel Withdrawal of 267th Armoured Bde
L5 Add 9th Marine Div

O1 Add 50 PP per Day



< Message edited by Andy Mac -- 9/14/2021 7:49:16 PM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 15
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 5:57:36 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Valentines for the Indian and NZ Tank Bdes

M3 Grants and Matildas only go to Australian Bdes

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 16
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/12/2021 7:11:03 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		My feeling is that you can go light with ground forces considering that Naval and Air are force multipliers for ground units.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 17
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/13/2021 7:53:30 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		OK so what do my Variants mean in terms of strategy.

DEI and PI - I have a significantly stronger set of surface options 22 modern Destroyers 3 Vanguard Class BB's arriving in January/February I also have slightly more depth in my at start air force with 50 Wellingtons and 50 Martlets II's and 50 Albacores in my pools also my CW devices (Brens, 25 pounders, Vickers) will be in better shape and I have more PP's to use in organising the defence

MY RN Carrier force will be significantly stronger with 2 Indefatagables and a Coloussus in early 42 escorted by fast BB's and top class DD's BUT with weask and fragile airgroups even if I put a couple of USMC Dive Bomber Sqns on them to help out until my pools fill out

The real upside in my RN Carrier choices come in 43 when I get Corsair II's in numbers

Now this doesnt mean I can stop him and I wont do a Fortress Palembang (I find it a bit too much application of hindsight) but I can hopefully make him bleed a little more although I have to assume mini KB will be a much bigger threat as I would expect all IJN CVL's to now be Ryujo CLass with 48 Aircraft.

Now what that means unless I can somehow damage mini KB is that he wont need KB to take DEI freeing them up strategicaly to interdict PH or go south for NZ or Australia so a major threat

China - all China got was extra supply so great care must be taken to avoid a steamroller in China with the PP's he has he can buy a lot of force out of China if I am not carefull so I must try to create a stalemate in China.

SWPAC
Without knowing what he ahs bought out I have to assume both Australia and NZ are going to be threatened - I should have 6 or 7 additional Sqns of fighters to help out as I cancelled withdrawals but its still going to be a tough fight.

This is my main worry if he knows anything about me he will suspect I have protected India so by cancelling the withdrawal of 4 Cav/mech Bdes in Aus/NZ I hope to surprise him - however this is the first game withthe new invasion reinforcements for Australia and NZ and on balance I think they make both Australia and especially NZ more vulnerable

Replacing off map reinforcements with Home Guard Bdes/Divs means more points for capturing the islands and the home guard formations start out really weak - so IMO NZ is now at serious risk and if I was Japan going for AV in Dc 42 an attack on NZ would definitely be on the cards so early reinforcment by US forces will be required

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 18
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/13/2021 7:56:16 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I hadnt considered fully the implications of a stronger mini KB freeing up KB from covering Java and Sumatra invasions may cause me some major issues

Canada/PH/Suva/NZ early are all now on the table going to need to think about my CENTPAC/SOPAC defence with a KB that does not need to be back in DEI to support invasions

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 19
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/13/2021 11:46:08 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		With the increase in the RN strength, maybe you would want to hide it for a surprise attack when the American carriers are spotted somewhere else.

Instead of an increase in pools for the torpedo bombers, why not aircraft factories unless that would not have fit into your purchases?

If the Martlets were to upgrade into Corsairs, then that may have been a better option for more fighters from the beginning then the factories convert to producing Corsairs.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 20
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/13/2021 2:02:40 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		NZ is looking very vulnerable in this game now and Hawaii is not invulnerable

If KB is not required in DEI then I almost have to keep my Carriers concentrated in either CENTAC or SOPAC until I have at least 4 of them

I will miss opportunities in DEI but so be it.

The Gearing class DD's are awesome AA beasts as are the Vanguards when they arrive and the 11 Tribals that I now have are pretty nasty customers in a surface fight especailly against IJN light units with radar and decent guns and good exp

By Feb I could have 5 relatively Modern BB's covered by Indomitable and Hermes (also now modern) a selection of good modern Cruisers (Houston as a Baltimore for example) and some very very good Destroyers

So you are right RangerJoe keeping a fleet in being until the Vanguards and Indomitable arrive is key but ideally I need to force him to commit KB to the West - I have to assume all KB's carriers are full complement and he will have made them all Akagi's, Shokaku's or Taiho's - I would suspect Akagi's because of the 81 capacity.

I must not waste the modern ships until I can get full value for them so watch for Betty traps

Assuming he has upgraded all IJN CVL's to Ryujo class and brings their air groups up to snuff thats what 250 carrier aircraft in mini KB - and if he added A6M2's at start he could fill their air groups almost immediately BUT IF and its a big IF I can get some DD's into close quarters with mini KB I think I can make it painful for him.

Andy


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 21
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/13/2021 2:27:23 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Personally, I think that instead of adding more aircraft to the initial pools it is much more cost effective to add factories - especially for the Allies. Yes, there won't be as much capability at the very beginning but it is better in the long run - which within the first year would give more aircraft.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 22
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/13/2021 3:04:59 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Hmm not sure I have added what 200 aircraft on day 1 for 8 points v 1 more factory for 30 (or 15 for a 2E) and some of them have limited runs

I think getting 200 aircraft in my pools on day 1 is a better option remember allied factories dont generate research points and some aircraft dont have upgrades so its not straight froward

Is it perfect no but I am investing 15 points in Corsairs and Thuds that I wont see any benefit of until mid 43

The Wildcats clearly help my USN Carriers early war and the Martlet II is a CW aircraft so it can be used to fill out British, Indian, NZ Canadian or Australian Sqns

50 Wellingtons gives me a very effective early war night bombing force even if i only use 2 sqns and if he goes for oil sites early they have a nasty bomb load for a 2E
Albacoers gives my RN carriers full airgroups or gives my LB Torpedo bombers some depth
Martlets can reinforce any sqn
PBY's allow me to fill most of my USN search groups letting me keep a greater eye out and preserving my ships


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 23
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/13/2021 3:21:37 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Put it this way I have invested 40 points in aircraft factories 8 in day 1 airfcaft

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 24
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/13/2021 3:23:05 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Yes but the PBYs do upgrade. Check the fighter types to see if any upgrade that you have chosen and then select their predecessors.

But to each their own, everybody plays differently.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 25
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/14/2021 7:54:39 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		You are correct RangerJoe had I put a factory in of 15 PBY's for 5 points I would have gotten more utility long terms so I actually spent 10 points on picks to get me 250 aircraft

100 Fighters on Day 1
50 PBY's
50 Torpedo Bombers
50 Wellingtons

I am trading the utility of having 250 airframes on day 1 v the long term benefit of getting 60 single engined aircraft a month or 30 twin engined rcognising that allied upgrade paths a re bit screwy so its hard to get value out of some factories as they dont always upgradeand som e types are short production runs




So I am tradio

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 26
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/14/2021 11:38:45 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		I happen to agree with Andy. A Variant game is a balancing act. In my game my opponent attacked Pearl Harbor and destroyed a large number of PBYs, but
I was able to replace losses with the 50 PBYs I bought. If I had created a PBY factory it would have taken 50 days to produce those 50 PBYs. I have had
full squadrons since day 2.

Trade offs are what this type of game is all about.

One item I have thought about is to add a size 30 P-38G factory. The P-38G upgrades to the P-38H which upgrades to the P-38J which upgrades to the P-38L. Maybe my next game I will try to find an opponent for a 200 point game.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 9/14/2021 11:43:04 PM >

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 27
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/14/2021 11:59:41 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Could a player also spend points to allow one airframe upgrade to another airframe? Especially if that first airframes starts production at the beginning of the game then gets discontinued? Then buy a factory for the first airframe? Yes, that is more points that way but more aircraft in total for a longer period.

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(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 28
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/17/2021 5:20:38 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		You could for the allies its very dangerous to allow that for Japan with research

Next time I do scenaro update I will put sensible upgrade paths in for allied aircraft ie Spit Vb to Spit VIII etc the only reason we didnt do it on release is it was irrelevant as there were so few allied factories - it wasnt a design choice it just wasnt needed in a variants game it may be needed and as it doesnt impact on game play at all unless you have extra factories I think its a safe change to make it wont be ever plane just the ones with incremental upgrades of the same type

Some US types have it already because they get factory upgrades

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 29
RE: Andy Mac v Hellenstrat (Variant Game) - 9/17/2021 5:23:39 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Ok agreed a couple of changes before we start

So my 4 Divs in 5/44+

Are now 2 Divs in 5/43+ and with the 2 extra points that gave me I upgraded 2 xAP's too Queen Elizabeth Liner class.....

I will now have some real fast transport capability.....

After the game starts I will post an updated set of variants based on what I have learned this time round but going to wait until the game starts and I can get my opponents feedback on how balanced his choices were

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 30
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