Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended

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Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/14/2021 9:18:49 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

We'd like to continue to improve WitE2, and to do that, we need your feedback. In an effort to better understand where play balance is these days, we'd like to hear from players on how your games have gone. I'm going to start two threads, one for games between 2 players, and one for games against the AI. This thread is for 2 player games. We only need 1 report per game, so if your opponent posted an accurate report of your game, no need for you to post a report. Your information will help us and is greatly appreciated. Please limit this thread to just game reports. Take any other comments to a separate thread. Thanks! The info requested is as follows:

Scenario Name
Axis Player Forum Name/Prior Experience Level
Soviet Player Forum Name/Prior Experience Level
Version of Game at Start/Version of Game at End
Axis HWM (if campaign) or Points ratio (if scenario)
Ending Date/Victory Result (ex. Marginal Soviet Victory) or if not played to end, sentence re why game ended and who was perceived winner
Axis Losses/Soviet Losses (you can just give us total permanent losses in men, or men/afv/aircraft)

Different Experience Levels (pick one from below as best you can, don't guess your opponent's experience level - they can post that info and I will copy it into the game report and delete the post):
Novice - First WitE2 game
Advanced Beginner - Not first game, but have only played a few games (<50 hours)/not necessarily had experience with the scenario/side
Semi-Experienced - Have played several games (>50 hours) and have some experience with the particular scenario
Experienced - Have played multiple games, including some campaigns. (>100 hours) Have prior experience with both the particular scenario and the side played in this game.
Very Experienced - Have played many games, including many campaigns. Have played both sides in the scenario being played.

Example of Game Report:

1941 Campaign
AxisFanboy39/Advanced Beginner
SovietFanboy45/Semi-Experienced
1.00.11/1.01.07
HWM 565
22 February 1942/German player resigned after facing first winter, short of historical front line in 41, pushed far back and took too many losses in winter to make it worth continuing.
Losses Axis/Soviet
Men 1558k/4133k
AFV 4112/16434
Aircraft 3342/16540

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

Post #: 1

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/14/2021 10:08:04 PM

cameron88

Posts: 43
Joined: 10/14/2020
Status: offline

Sorry, but all my games have been server games, and you don't have an option to download or view the game after you submit your turn.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 2

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/14/2021 10:26:36 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

But at least one player should be able to look at the results. If your opponent ends the game during their turn and isn't interested in making a report, you could always make a report of the items you do know or could approximate. Even a general sense of where things ended up. Also, I should have mentioned that if there's any concern about making the info public, you're always welcome to send a report to 2by3@2by3games.com and we'll just use it internally and not share it.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to cameron88)

Post #: 3

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/14/2021 11:13:18 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

I definitely cannot access my closed up games nor even see it so any type of report I could do is with a Player name - and my perceptions of the ongoings. No game I had vs another player reached the '41 Winter and in most games I am the one who bailed out due to Soviet stalling or putting to a slog German advance anywhere the terrain was not clear.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 4

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/15/2021 6:39:06 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

Loki100/Glorious Ruse (both from beta so guess experienced)

not sure re game version due to using beta patches but started 3 August, abandoned 12 September

game abandoned T15 when it was clear the axis (loki) couldn't even reach the first HWM test

final losses

_____________________________

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 5

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/15/2021 8:37:34 AM

tyronec

Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline

VtB
Soviet tyronec/very experienced
Axis Smokindave
Axis conceded T6, Soviets were going to get to Berlin, not sure when.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 6

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/15/2021 8:39:59 AM

tyronec

Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline

RtL
Soviet tyronec/very experienced
Axis Xhoel/very experienced
Axis major victory

Attachment (1)

(in reply to tyronec)

Post #: 7

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/15/2021 8:45:26 AM

tyronec

Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline

'41 Campaign
Axis tyronec/very experienced
Soviet Dodo98
Abandoned T6. Looked like an Axis Sudden death win in '41

(in reply to tyronec)

Post #: 8

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/15/2021 9:38:43 AM

Darojax

Posts: 536
Joined: 4/29/2011
Status: offline

1941 Campaign
Erzac/Novice (experienced WitE1 and WitW player)
Darojax/Advanced Beginner (experienced WitE1 and WitW player) - another player (novice, exp from WitE1 and WitW) controlled north and center frontlines up until T16 or so.
1.00.07/1.00.11
Axis HWM: 683
Ending Date: 28 June 1942/Soviet player resigned during Axis summer offensive. Axis forces reached the gates of Stalingrad (center and north frontline fairly stable), estimation by Soviet player that it would not possible to prevent the Axis from reaching their VP goal of 750.

Losses Axis/Soviet
Men 1008k/5392k
AFV 3675/19438
Aircraft 4380/11208

< Message edited by Darojax -- 9/15/2021 9:44:01 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to tyronec)

Post #: 9

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/16/2021 1:17:08 AM

GloriousRuse

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline

1941 Campaign Series, HvH across multiple versions.
GR (Moving from advanced beginner to semi-experienced, maybe experienced)

#1 GR Axis (beginner/adv beginner), Beginner/Adv beginner opponent. Axis win with 750 at summer VP check.
#2 GR Soviet (advanced beginner), Adv beginner opponent. Opponent resigned ~T10 when he believed he'd max in the low 540 range before winter.
#3 GR Soviet (adv beginner), Adv beginner opponent. Opponent resigned ~T33 with cascading losses in AGC.
#4 GR Axis (advanced beginner/semi), semi-experienced opponent. Opponent resigned T6 after destruction of second and third echelon armies.
#5 GR Axis (semi), advanced beginner opponent. Opponent resigned T4 after destruction of 2nd echelon armies near Smolensk/Pskov.
#6 GR Soviet (semi), Bobo Axis. Public AAR.
#7 GR Soviet (semi-semi+), very experienced opponent. Opponent resigned ~T15 after critical damage to panzerwaffe and slow gains.

(in reply to Darojax)

Post #: 10

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/16/2021 7:56:05 AM

hei1

Posts: 52
Joined: 11/22/2019
From: Germany
Status: offline

1942 Stalingrad to Berlin Campaign
hei1 / Advanced Beginner (in wite2)
christianwj /
1.00.7 / 1.01.09 (played with AI Air)
HWM 778
20 May 1943 / Soviet player resigned after loosing Moscow and facing too many losses in the center, not being able to reconstruct the front line.
Losses Axis / Soviet
Men 2088k / 4241k
Guns 19k / 55k
AFV 4794 / 12187
Aircraft 4488 / 8533

_____________________________

--- it's not a bug, it's a feature ---

(in reply to GloriousRuse)

Post #: 11

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/16/2021 2:32:34 PM

jubjub

Posts: 493
Joined: 5/2/2021
Status: offline

Joel, is there any way to see my full history of server games? It'd be even better if it was possible to procure the last save file from them, but I can at least give the synopsis with just the name and turn it ended on. I can pretty much only see my current games on the server since it only accommodates about 6 games on the screen. If you can get this for me, I can get a lot of games history to you.

Thanks

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 12

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/16/2021 3:22:09 PM

hei1

Posts: 52
Joined: 11/22/2019
From: Germany
Status: offline

Joel, will you post some statistics from all this massive data at the end? Thanks.

_____________________________

--- it's not a bug, it's a feature ---

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 13

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/16/2021 8:12:16 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Joel, is there any way to see my full history of server games? It'd be even better if it was possible to procure the last save file from them, but I can at least give the synopsis with just the name and turn it ended on. I can pretty much only see my current games on the server since it only accommodates about 6 games on the screen. If you can get this for me, I can get a lot of games history to you.

Thanks

I can download the last two files from a game on the server. I�m not sure though how long the game stay on the server. If you email me the names of the players in the game, the scenario name, and roughly what turn number the game was on when it ended I can try to download them and send them to you. Or just put up an approximate estimate of the NDA and scores and don�t worry about the losses.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 14

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/16/2021 8:12:51 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hei1

Joel, will you post some statistics from all this massive data at the end? Thanks.

I�m not planning to, but if someone wants to do that they�re more than welcome.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to hei1)

Post #: 15

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/16/2021 9:16:19 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

Would not the games that ended a few months ago skew what we are seeing today with players more educated on game mechanics??

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 16

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/16/2021 10:10:00 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

No doubt, but some of that could be factored out by accounting for player experience and version number (low experience and early versions). Of course as the knowledge base grows and is shared among the community, player balance can change because of just that. I've always felt the German side has the harder time in 1941 for an inexperienced player, so I expect a different game between inexperienced players than between very experienced players. Of course the Soviet players can gain from the built up knowledge base, but I just think the German player has more to learn to be competitive. My 2 cents.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 17

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/19/2021 7:37:50 PM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

No doubt, but some of that could be factored out by accounting for player experience and version number (low experience and early versions). Of course as the knowledge base grows and is shared among the community, player balance can change because of just that. I've always felt the German side has the harder time in 1941 for an inexperienced player, so I expect a different game between inexperienced players than between very experienced players. Of course the Soviet players can gain from the built up knowledge base, but I just think the German player has more to learn to be competitive. My 2 cents.

You do realize, Mr. Billings, that applying the principles of English and of Algebra, you've just admitted that the design has a pro-Soviet bias...

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 18

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/19/2021 9:01:51 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

For two beginning players, yes I think it is easier for the Soviet player to win. For two experienced players, the juries out in my opinion. Few games are perfectly balanced. That's why having some kind of bidding system will help balance any game. If you believe the game is unbalanced, the idea of bidding on morale level help for side is an easy way to alter the dynamic.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 19

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/19/2021 10:29:00 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

For two beginning players, yes I think it is easier for the Soviet player to win. For two experienced players, the juries out in my opinion. Few games are perfectly balanced. That's why having some kind of bidding system will help balance any game. If you believe the game is unbalanced, the idea of bidding on morale level help for side is an easy way to alter the dynamic.

For beginning player I agree. Soviets 100% has the upper hand. With experienced players I feel Germany can hold the candle a great deal more than what is the current mindset that is out there at the moment. But playing Germany is much different than playing Germany in WITE1 and that is the transition that needs to take place. A few tweaks (Assault HQ's & motorization) and I truly believe you have a very balanced game that you have developed here. I know I LOVE the game :)

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 20

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/20/2021 5:11:17 AM

tyronec

Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

No doubt, but some of that could be factored out by accounting for player experience and version number (low experience and early versions). Of course as the knowledge base grows and is shared among the community, player balance can change because of just that. I've always felt the German side has the harder time in 1941 for an inexperienced player, so I expect a different game between inexperienced players than between very experienced players. Of course the Soviet players can gain from the built up knowledge base, but I just think the German player has more to learn to be competitive. My 2 cents.

You do realize, Mr. Billings, that applying the principles of English and of Algebra, you've just admitted that the design has a pro-Soviet bias...

I was on the testing team for 3 years, during that time the game swung back and forth with advantage to one side and then the other.
To say it has bias is I think incorrect, to say it is unbalanced under a particular patch almost certainly is the case though that unbalance could be different for different scenarios.
I would agree with HLYA here, the Assault HQs and good use of GA probably gives an advantage to the Soviets at present.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 21

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 9/21/2021 5:35:42 PM

jubjub

Posts: 493
Joined: 5/2/2021
Status: offline

Submitted reports via email for games vs:
Lisien
Clus_fr
stephen61 (two games)
gam3r

I didn't have any of the specific data, so if any of my opponents saved that, it may help Joel to submit it to him.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 22

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 10/3/2021 6:11:43 AM

tyronec

Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline

'41 Campaign. Started under .07, continued .09
tyronec (Axis), Gundam (Soviet)
Axis concede T13, 632 VPs.

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 23

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 10/7/2021 8:33:05 AM

Yogol

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/30/2016
Status: offline

you are one of the best players, so I always read your posts and try to learn from you.

In this game against Glorious Ruse, most numbers are comparable with my games. Except one: you only killed 3361 Russian airplanes in air combat. That is very, very low, no?

I only use my air force defensive (I never use the bombers, except in turn 1) and I somehow managed to kill 6.700 commies in air combat only losing 850 of my own.

FYI, if I look more in detail, the extra commie losses are across all types of airplanes: fighters, bombers, transport... all values are lower in your game.

Do you have any idea why that is? Do you put your airforce in reserve or rest already in September or so?

(And yes, I also gave up as Axis. The game is simply unwinnable as Axis in it's current state)

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 24

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 10/7/2021 8:51:17 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol

you are one of the best players, so I always read your posts and try to learn from you.

In this game against Glorious Ruse, most numbers are comparable with my games. Except one: you only killed 3361 Russian airplanes in air combat. That is very, very low, no?

I only use my air force defensive (I never use the bombers, except in turn 1) and I somehow managed to kill 6.700 commies in air combat only losing 850 of my own.

FYI, if I look more in detail, the extra commie losses are across all types of airplanes: fighters, bombers, transport... all values are lower in your game.

Do you have any idea why that is? Do you put your airforce in reserve or rest already in September or so?

(And yes, I also gave up as Axis. The game is simply unwinnable as Axis in it's current state)

probably better posted in the AAR thread - this really is for reporting completed games (or it ends up as yet another 'game broken' discussion)

_____________________________

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Post #: 25

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 10/7/2021 10:37:48 AM

Nix77

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol

you are one of the best players, so I always read your posts and try to learn from you.

In this game against Glorious Ruse, most numbers are comparable with my games. Except one: you only killed 3361 Russian airplanes in air combat. That is very, very low, no?

I only use my air force defensive (I never use the bombers, except in turn 1) and I somehow managed to kill 6.700 commies in air combat only losing 850 of my own.

FYI, if I look more in detail, the extra commie losses are across all types of airplanes: fighters, bombers, transport... all values are lower in your game.

Do you have any idea why that is? Do you put your airforce in reserve or rest already in September or so?

(And yes, I also gave up as Axis. The game is simply unwinnable as Axis in it's current state)

The air war results can vary wildly depending on how the player chooses to control the air forces, and how to use them. The air war also remains quite uncharted still, with various balance issues and features that some might call bugs ;)

I'm not sure which game you're referring to, but at some point it was considered a valid tactic to concentrate killing the pilots, which could leave T1 SU airframe losses really low.

I can imagine that balancing the air war is a gigantic task with all the knobs, cogs, bells and whistles included, and unfortunately I don't think that any amount of data infested with player preferences makes it any easier :(

But still, I think it's a good idea to gather game data (I love statistics!), I'm just sad that I haven't had the luxury to spend enough time with the game to share anything valuable :(

(in reply to Yogol)

Post #: 26

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 10/13/2021 5:27:23 AM

gundam1985

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline

1941 Campaign
Axis tyronec/Very Experienced
Soviet gundam1985/Very Experienced
1.01.07/1.01.09
HWM 632
German player resigned after T12, different from historical front line in 41, Axis take Crimea instead of Leningrad, GA mission took heavy damage to the front line's units.
Losses Axis/Soviet
Men 244k/2036k
AFV 1136/10443
Aircraft 933/8140

(in reply to Nix77)

Post #: 27

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 10/13/2021 5:33:13 AM

gundam1985

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline

1941 Campaign
Axis AlbertN
Soviet gundam1985/Very Experienced
1.01.07
HWM No record
German player resigned after T10, he have no confident to break though the strong defence.
Losses Axis/Soviet
Men 166k/1613k
AFV 416/7152
Aircraft No record

(in reply to gundam1985)

Post #: 28

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 10/13/2021 5:45:36 AM

gundam1985

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline

1941 Campaign
Axis RoadWarrior/Very Experienced
Soviet gundam1985/Very Experienced
1.01.07
HWM 612
German player didn't update the file since Sep/2021, it's T33 now but it seems the end of the game. The Axis short of historical front line in 41 and suffered heavy losses in winter. At least 4 german infantry divsions were surrendered, many panzers and other heavy weapons were loss. The romanian had loss over 300k man in winter. The Soviet had break though the front line and block some troops from retreat(including 7 german divisions). I think there are no hope for Axis to hold the line in 1942. The rear area were open, it's an easy cake for Soviet to destroy the entire southern line of defense.

Losses Axis/Soviet
Men 991k/3475k
AFV 3653/15722
Aircraft No record

< Message edited by gundam1985 -- 10/13/2021 6:45:52 AM >

(in reply to gundam1985)

Post #: 29

RE: Game results - Tell us how your 2 player game ended - 12/17/2021 3:25:17 AM

gundam1985

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline

1941 Campaign
Axis guctony/Experienced
Soviet gundam1985/Very Experienced
1.01.07
HWM 517
German player give up the game. It's T13 that Axis lossed 359k and Soviet lossed 1765k.

(in reply to gundam1985)

Post #: 30