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Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 9:04:09 AM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 142
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline 		Is there any way to detect diesel electric subs with sonobuoys? Iranian Kilo sub at shallow/cruise speed cannot be detected with numerous sonobuoys dropped by P-8 MPA plane and SH-60B helos. It just waltzed through all sonobuoys without being detected.






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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 10:18:53 AM   
CV60


Posts: 992
Joined: 10/1/2012
Status: offline 		If you have an idea of approximately where he is, a couple of active buoys might help. Also, I'm not sure what the layer depth was, but there seems to be mostly above layer passive buoys invic the Kilo. If he was below the layer, that would impact their ability to find him. FYI, diesel electric and AIP boats are very quiet.

< Message edited by CV60 -- 10/11/2021 10:19:25 AM >

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 2
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 1:22:55 PM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 142
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, electric subs are quiet but he passed all plane and helo buoys without breaking a sweat. They dropped combination of above/below bouys, but even shallow bouys did't detect Kilo at shallow depth when he was only 1nm away.

(in reply to CV60)
Post #: 3
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 1:32:10 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		Use active sonobuoys.

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 4
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 2:58:01 PM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 142
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

Use active sonobuoys.


Can I force plane/helo to use only active? They randomly drop passive and active, above and below layer.

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 5
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 3:54:32 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		From the hotkey list:

Shift + [ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
[ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer
Shift + ] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer

And Pg 68 in the manual:

"4.1.2 ASW-specific Actions:
Drop Passive Sonobuoy: If the aircraft has sonobuoys in its
inventory, it drops it. Sonobuoys can be dropped above or
below the thermal layer (see 9.2.3, Submarine Combat). Passive
sonobuoys are the main source of anti-submarine warfare.

Drop Active Sonobuoy: This drops a sonobuoy that actively
pings. As the submarine will know it’s being watched, active
sonobuoys are traditionally used only to pinpoint the exact
location of an already-detected contact prior to an attack.

Deploy Dipping Sonar: If the aircraft is a helicopter with a
dipping sonar, it stops, hovers low, and deploys it.
Function key functions: Allow you to call on unit level functions.
See the shortcut bar, “Buttons and Windows” for more information."

_____________________________

You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 6
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 4:36:22 PM   
BobTank63

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 9/23/2021
Status: offline 		Diesel-electric subs are incredibly quiet. It is very hard to detect one without using active sonar. I'd recommend setting the ASW mission you have to use active sonar so the helos will go active on their dipping sonars.

< Message edited by BobTank63 -- 10/11/2021 4:37:20 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 7
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 5:37:48 PM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 142
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

From the hotkey list:

Shift + [ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
[ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer
Shift + ] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer

And Pg 68 in the manual:

"4.1.2 ASW-specific Actions:
Drop Passive Sonobuoy: If the aircraft has sonobuoys in its
inventory, it drops it. Sonobuoys can be dropped above or
below the thermal layer (see 9.2.3, Submarine Combat). Passive
sonobuoys are the main source of anti-submarine warfare.

Drop Active Sonobuoy: This drops a sonobuoy that actively
pings. As the submarine will know it’s being watched, active
sonobuoys are traditionally used only to pinpoint the exact
location of an already-detected contact prior to an attack.

Deploy Dipping Sonar: If the aircraft is a helicopter with a
dipping sonar, it stops, hovers low, and deploys it.
Function key functions: Allow you to call on unit level functions.
See the shortcut bar, “Buttons and Windows” for more information."


I know about manual method, but manually searching for subs (dropping buoys) in 48h mission is no fun.



quote:

ORIGINAL: BobTank63

Diesel-electric subs are incredibly quiet. It is very hard to detect one without using active sonar. I'd recommend setting the ASW mission you have to use active sonar so the helos will go active on their dipping sonars.


Yes, it is set in ASW mission but P8 plane and SH-60 helo don't have one. They just flood the area with buoys and helo uses MAD.

(in reply to BobTank63)
Post #: 8
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 5:43:09 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		"Can I force plane/helo to use only active? They randomly drop passive and active, above and below layer."

Here is what you asked for. I don't see you saying anything about doing it automatically.

_____________________________

You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 9
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 6:46:03 PM   
BobTank63

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 9/23/2021
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, there doesn't currently seem to be a way to set the ASW aircraft to use a certain buoy automatically.

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 10
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 7:17:10 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5082195

Its been discussed at least a couple times before.

Also, I tend not to use areas for ASW patrols. I've had better luck creating a grid pattern of reference points and assigning a loop patrol. It gives a more predictable way of making sure at least a passive or active SB ends up within a certain area. I've had better luck with that method than areas. It can clutter the screen a little.

_____________________________

You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes

(in reply to BobTank63)
Post #: 11
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 7:53:23 PM   
CV60


Posts: 992
Joined: 10/1/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: goldfinger35


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

From the hotkey list:

Shift + [ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
[ Drop Passive Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer
Shift + ] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Shallow - Over Layer
] Drop Active Sonobuoy, Deep - Under Layer

And Pg 68 in the manual:

"4.1.2 ASW-specific Actions:
Drop Passive Sonobuoy: If the aircraft has sonobuoys in its
inventory, it drops it. Sonobuoys can be dropped above or
below the thermal layer (see 9.2.3, Submarine Combat). Passive
sonobuoys are the main source of anti-submarine warfare.

Drop Active Sonobuoy: This drops a sonobuoy that actively
pings. As the submarine will know it’s being watched, active
sonobuoys are traditionally used only to pinpoint the exact
location of an already-detected contact prior to an attack.

Deploy Dipping Sonar: If the aircraft is a helicopter with a
dipping sonar, it stops, hovers low, and deploys it.
Function key functions: Allow you to call on unit level functions.
See the shortcut bar, “Buttons and Windows” for more information."


I know about manual method, but manually searching for subs (dropping buoys) in 48h mission is no fun.




IMHO, (and Unfortunately), for modern diesel boats you will have to manually lay a pattern to get something reasonably efficient. This is because the range of a sonobuoy v. a particular SSK will vary depending on the quietness of the target, the noise environment, and whether the target is above/below the layer. CMO doesn't automatically figure out the average detection range of a sonobuoy and then calculate spacing and type. For VP ops, I usually designate an patrol area and manually help the VP lay the buoy pattern, using my knowledge and experience in CMO to determine spacing and type of buoy. In general, in CMO if I don't know what depth the sub is at, for a modern SSK I do a pattern with about 1.5 nm spacing with a shallow-Shallow-Deep pattern. If I think I may have in idea of where the sub is, I drop an active buoy. If I want to drive the sub either to, or away from an area, I will drop an active buoy positioned to help elicit the desired behavior. Sometimes, when you do this, the sub will increase speed and be picked up by your passive buoys.

While it is a bit of a pain to micro-manage the pattern, once you have it deployed, it is just a matter of monitoring it. You can also keep your surface search radar on to keep the sub from going to periscope depth. One thing: don't expect results quickly. ASW is "Awfully Slow Warfare". The buoy pattern merely sets up a barrier that maximizes your chance of the SSK passing near enough a buoy to get a detection. That frequently takes a lot of time.

FYI, you will burn through buoys doing this. However, this is realistic. One thing to keep in mind regarding ASW. You don't have to kill the sub to win. You only have to prevent him from killing you. If you can hold down a SSK and prevent him from maneuvering to get a shot on your HVU, you win.


< Message edited by CV60 -- 10/11/2021 8:42:51 PM >

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 12
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 8:45:24 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		When I create a loop with modern SBs, I noted that they are placed 7-9 nm apart. I use that to keep build my grid pattern. I adjust that based on the SB range of the units I'm working with. IIRC, the AI won't place new SBs over working SBs in the loop. That saves SBs. I'll have to doublecheck that.

_____________________________

You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes

(in reply to CV60)
Post #: 13
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/11/2021 8:59:58 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		When in doubt just fire a Ltwt torp on a bearing-only attack and see if it stirs anything up!

After all, how many torps did the RN fire during the Falklands war and how many subs did they hit with them? [semi-serious]

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 14
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/12/2021 9:08:35 AM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 142
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

When in doubt just fire a Ltwt torp on a bearing-only attack and see if it stirs anything up!

After all, how many torps did the RN fire during the Falklands war and how many subs did they hit with them? [semi-serious]


Yes, I had that idea yesterday while trying the best solution. I will experiment with that.






Out of desperation, I made a 3-layer defense:
-MPA plane dropping buoys 60nm from my ships in square area
-Helo in loop line dropping buoys 50nm from ships
-Helo dropping buoys 30nm from my ships in square area

and yet still Kilo at cruise squeezes through all defenses undetected








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< Message edited by goldfinger35 -- 10/12/2021 9:10:10 AM >

(in reply to Primarchx)
Post #: 15
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/12/2021 10:15:08 AM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 142
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline 		After some testing, I have concluded that plane drops active/passive/shallow/below buoys +-9nm apart and in order to detect electro cruise sub active or passive buoy has to be +-2.5 nm (but at correct height) so chances are pretty slim it will detect sub.
I have marked in red shallow buoys and range at which they can detect electro cruise sub at shallow.












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< Message edited by goldfinger35 -- 10/12/2021 10:31:54 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/12/2021 10:30:14 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		As I said above, I already tested that SBs are 7-9 nm apart. When I need a tighter grouping, I use the loop patrol with reference points in a tight grid. There are still gaps here and there based on how how you build it, but you can adjust it on the fly.

_____________________________

You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 17
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/13/2021 1:48:34 AM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		I like the way you're arranging things along the limiting lines of approach. Very snazzy. Pro move.

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 18
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/13/2021 1:58:41 AM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: goldfinger35
After some testing, I have concluded that plane drops active/passive/shallow/below buoys +-9nm apart and in order to detect electro cruise sub active or passive buoy has to be +-2.5 nm (but at correct height) so chances are pretty slim it will detect sub.


Well.. 2.5NM suggests you need a lot more sonobuoys or maybe you just need to arrange them better. It's not impossible that you'll detect them, but depending on how they're arranged might be more or less likely. At best the effort would demand a lot of time. Think about it this way, though:

Suppose you had 10 sonobuoys, each of which could detect a submarine at 2.5NM. You can lay them with no overlapping (spaced 5NM apart) in a straight line 50NM long and detect every single submarine which tried to cross that line. Suppose I wanted to stretch it, and do a little wider? I could go as far as ~56NM and still detect ~90% of the submarines that tried to cross the line.

Does that influence your thinking about how to approach the problem?


< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 10/13/2021 1:59:59 AM >

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 19
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/13/2021 6:57:59 AM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 142
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

quote:

ORIGINAL: goldfinger35
After some testing, I have concluded that plane drops active/passive/shallow/below buoys +-9nm apart and in order to detect electro cruise sub active or passive buoy has to be +-2.5 nm (but at correct height) so chances are pretty slim it will detect sub.


Well.. 2.5NM suggests you need a lot more sonobuoys or maybe you just need to arrange them better. It's not impossible that you'll detect them, but depending on how they're arranged might be more or less likely. At best the effort would demand a lot of time. Think about it this way, though:

Suppose you had 10 sonobuoys, each of which could detect a submarine at 2.5NM. You can lay them with no overlapping (spaced 5NM apart) in a straight line 50NM long and detect every single submarine which tried to cross that line. Suppose I wanted to stretch it, and do a little wider? I could go as far as ~56NM and still detect ~90% of the submarines that tried to cross the line.

Does that influence your thinking about how to approach the problem?




Yes, buoys (at correct depth, usually shallow) 5nm apart for 50nm would be a winning strategy and that is what I have to do manually because helo/plane on ASW patrol mission will drop them shallow/deep 9nm apart a that gives us minimal chance of detection. Manual is fine for small missions but for large missions with many units
I know it was mentioned in other posts over time, but solution would be options in ASW patrol mission:
-drop only shallow or only deep or combination
-spaced apart xy nm

< Message edited by goldfinger35 -- 10/13/2021 6:59:42 AM >

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 20
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/13/2021 4:41:52 PM   
mikerohan

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 5/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: goldfinger35

[...]
I know it was mentioned in other posts over time, but solution would be options in ASW patrol mission:
-drop only shallow or only deep or combination
-spaced apart xy nm


+1

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 21
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/13/2021 5:29:51 PM   
schweggy

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 2/3/2015
Status: offline 		Sometimes I'll create a very narrow corridor for an ASW mission, a lane if you will that my ship or group will transit. Typically this lane is only 5-10NM wide to keep sonobuoys overlapping as much as possible. I'll have it rotate and follow the group. I'll create an additional area for an engagement zone maybe another 10 or 30NM further out so the aircraft don't stray too far from the surface assets they're supposed to be protecting. "Investigate targets outside patrol area" in doctrine but they should only stray into that box I've created. If there's a contact that appears to be hostile, or is acting in such a manner that I feel it needs inspection and is outside this mission area I'll launch an aircraft and setup a "sub-hunt" mini mission centered over the target with WRA set to tight (unless it's ID'd as hostile, then it's "F1" go kill it.)

This way I micromanage the missions a bit but let the ASW asset go do its thing with minimal effort on my part. They can be tedious missions to control otherwise, IMO.

_____________________________

- schweggy -

Montani Semper Liberi - Mountaineers are always free

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RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/13/2021 6:07:47 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		That's a good setup. There's also a lot you can do with events and lua to activate and deactivate missions on sub detection. If you play in the editor or are designing scenarios.

_____________________________

You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes

(in reply to schweggy)
Post #: 23
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/13/2021 11:48:58 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: goldfinger35
Yes, buoys (at correct depth, usually shallow) 5nm apart for 50nm would be a winning strategy and that is what I have to do manually because helo/plane on ASW patrol mission will drop them shallow/deep 9nm apart a that gives us minimal chance of detection. Manual is fine for small missions but for large missions with many units
I know it was mentioned in other posts over time, but solution would be options in ASW patrol mission:
-drop only shallow or only deep or combination
-spaced apart xy nm


The other option is to make the patrol area much more narrow. The truth is that the pattern matters. Actual sonobuoy patterns are classified, so the default to random search is the "good enough" solution for most purposes.

The whole deep v. shallow thing depends in part the submarine's depth, so if the scenario designer is good, they'll use LUA to periodically change the submarine's depth settings. Other things that drive sonobuoy patterns are what you're trying to do. Are you doing a cued search versus a barrier? Is this an advancing barrier or a static barrier? What are the assumptions you're making about the target you're searching for? Are they moving fast or slow? What does your intelligence suggest? How much risk are you willing to assume? These are all TACTICAL decisions. That's what TACTICS is about, i.e. THE SUBSTANCE OF THE GAME. One of the fundamental questions your are faced with in ASW is how big of an area can you search effectively enough to achieve your goals. That is a real life problem, and your job in a scenario might be to make that decision (among others hopefully).

The guys thought a lot about whether or not to include sonobuoy patterns. The problem is that to make smart ones, you have to understand a lot of the specifics of the problem. What is the sensor target? What are the sensor properties? What are the acoustics like? What is the bathymetry like? Once you know that, then you calculate the sonar range and think about how to place them and space them. There's not one single solution, so the default was random search. If you have specific ideas about how you want to lay down your buoys in a particular situation, do it manually.

And yeah, scenarios can be too big. There gets to be a point where scenarios are difficult to manage adequately. Just because you can stick a ton of stuff on the map doesn't make it a good idea (for lots of reasons). CMO/CMANO cannot realistically be run hands off except after careful testing and tweaking to make sure there's no unanticipated behaviors, and it will most likely require extensive LUA scripting to be reasonable. It is "headless" without a person doing the thinking. The defaults are not always the best solution. They might not even be the adequate solution. Your job, as the player, is to understand the problem and intervene as necessary.

So... sorry... CMO/CMANO doesn't do your thinking for you. Life's rough, I know.




< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 10/14/2021 2:51:18 PM >

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 24
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/14/2021 8:31:22 AM   
goldfinger35


Posts: 142
Joined: 1/1/2009
Status: offline 		You gave me some good ides so I have experimented with narrow corridor for an ASW mission and it works, but:
-It should be max 10nm wide
-My ship should sail at max 10nm (at cruise speed detection drops to around 50% because helo doesn't have enough time)
-Narrow corridor must be at subs correct path
-Helo should have a dipping sonar (like MH-60) because sub often gets detected with dipping sonar. Helo with MAD (like SH-60) is much less usefull (detection drops to around 50% with only buoys, MAD is useless)



(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 25
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/14/2021 1:40:56 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		MAD is not meant to be a search sensor. It's meant to be a localization sensor. The idea is that you have a general sense of where a target might be but not quite good enough to drop a weapon on them, so you fly to that area and use MAD to determine when you're right on them. That's when you drop the weapon.

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 26
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/14/2021 5:33:20 PM   
Randomizer


Posts: 1473
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline 		Just as an aside, I did a lot of research into the rather clandestine Canadian ASW efforts in the northwest Atlantic during the Cuban Missile Crisis. In so far as I have been able to determine, not a single initial sub contact came from sonobuoys in spite of the expenditure of virtually the entire peacetime stockpile from both the Atlantic and Pacific inventories.

It seems that initial detection were primarily from RDF as the boats communicated with the Northern Fleet HQ, radar detection of snorkels and surfaced boats and the then new SOSUS network. Sonobuoys were essential for localizing contacts though. Of course acoustic technology has greatly improved but subs are much quieter but without a choke point to canalize the sub, sonobuoy only searches in the open ocean will generally be ineffective unless you get lucky. Luck is always possible but should never be counted on in a military or naval operation.

For what it's worth I always make my LRMP patrol zones long and narrow and placed at about a 45-60 degree axis compared to the anticipated PIM of the threat subs.

-C

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 27
RE: Detecting subs with sonobuoys? - 10/14/2021 9:16:17 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		Interesting. It doesn't surprise me. Even today sonar is iffy and subject to tremendous uncertainty. Back then it was probably doubly so. Also, one of the big shortcomings of the undersea warfare model in CMO/CMANO is that there's no bangers. That'd be a big deal.

Plus, who doesn't like the idea of setting off explosive charges in the water?

Well... whales...

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 28
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