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Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/25/2021 5:48:59 PM

AlbertN

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Greetings,

I just noticed the Night Fighter squadrons in the West Front are all frozen there. Bound and tied.

The Soviets are performing mass bombing of railyards and ports by night.
Bf109s & co are ... well let's just say I forgot to put them on Day Only missions and they pretty suffered more landing crashes due to darkness than shot down enemy bombers. (Actually they got shot down in nice amount by Soviet bombers too ontop of ops losses).

So Day Only missions for them there - and that is fine.
The Flak was deployed and damages a lot of Soviet planes (I do not know how many of those are repaired though - the logistic report seem to notify me the flak damaged few hundreds of Soviet bombers but shot down very few of them - and that is good because in general Flak does that. Inhibits more then destroys proper). The Soviets seem not to relent so I assume the Flak damage is not that impactful.

BUT I've no way to truly effectively protect my precious railyards - because despite the manifest necessity, I cannot transfer Night Fighters.

Is that intended that Night Fighters cannot appear in the East Front? Because I understand that 'must stop British bombing' is there, but the Soviets were not having hundreds of bombers raid in '41 by night! (Not even by day admittedly!)

Post #: 1

RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/25/2021 6:02:23 PM

Joel Billings

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No, to my knowledge they weren't night bombing. It's not all that accurate. They were flying lots of night harassment missions with mostly U2s. The op losses flying at night are probably high, and the question is are they really hitting much (they shouldn't)? As far as I know the Germans brought only a few night fighter units to the eastern front.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to AlbertN)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/25/2021 6:28:07 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

No, to my knowledge they weren't night bombing. It's not all that accurate. They were flying lots of night harassment missions with mostly U2s. The op losses flying at night are probably high, and the question is are they really hitting much (they shouldn't)? As far as I know the Germans brought only a few night fighter units to the eastern front.

Soviets are night bombing (regular bombers) in mass in his game I believe is what is happening. Thus he wanted to get the night fighters from the Western theater. That is how I read it but that is just me.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/25/2021 6:35:58 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Plus in my opinion Soviets are bombing the wrong thing. The CRUX of Germany is fighters. I have yet to see a single Soviet day bomb or night bomb German airfields. When you see the Soviets night bombing German fighter bases with 250 night bombers and causing German fighter losses without a way to curb the threat the topic discussion will come up in a hurry. It will happen & can be done. I personally would rather kill German fighters, no matter the quantity, than bomb ground forces if I were a Soviet but that is just me.

On the first turn alone you know where the German fighters are based. Just saying...

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Post #: 4

RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/25/2021 6:44:50 PM

AlbertN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

No, to my knowledge they weren't night bombing. It's not all that accurate. They were flying lots of night harassment missions with mostly U2s. The op losses flying at night are probably high, and the question is are they really hitting much (they shouldn't)? As far as I know the Germans brought only a few night fighter units to the eastern front.

Soviets are night bombing (regular bombers) in mass in his game I believe is what is happening. Thus he wanted to get the night fighters from the Western theater. That is how I read it but that is just me.

HYLA got me precisely in my intent.

Soviets are bombing en mass - and frankly I am unable to read the damage they have done. The combat reports give percentages that have not made any sense to me. [If anyone wants to explain them, they're welcome - but at the combat report if I see a 87% damage for instance, that is not matched by the damage inflicted on the relevant structure; it does not help that there is a 'repair' phase in the middle too during Axis logistics].

But right now my interest is 'I want to be able to get the Night Fighters from the West to counter Soviet Night Bombing, but I cannot because they're locked to the Theather.'

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/25/2021 8:46:49 PM

Joel Billings

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IIRC, the damage numbers are fogged up so real damage can be much lower than stated. I'd like to see evidence of night airfield bombing that does a lot of damage. Anything is theoretically possible, but I don't think it's likely.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to AlbertN)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/25/2021 10:00:09 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

IIRC, the damage numbers are fogged up so real damage can be much lower than stated. I'd like to see evidence of night airfield bombing that does a lot of damage. Anything is theoretically possible, but I don't think it's likely.

I did not say a lot of damage. Think cumulative over many turns with a great many bomber runs on fighter bases. I have tested this with Germans I will see what the Soviets can do. If I get the German numbers with more Soviet bombers I will be happy.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/25/2021 10:05:56 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Any plinking away of fighter planes to the Germans is detrimental in my opinion.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:23:27 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

IIRC, the damage numbers are fogged up so real damage can be much lower than stated. I'd like to see evidence of night airfield bombing that does a lot of damage. Anything is theoretically possible, but I don't think it's likely.

Do I win a prize?

I set this up in less than 10 minutes and is just one airfield NIGHT bombed 3 times. I showed this in WITE1 and am now showing it again in WITE2. I know a lot of things that many may not with the amount of time I have spent in both games now. I have also helped a great many over the years that would listen to my rumblings including Tyronec when he first started. But I will always claim I know nothing. Without further ado here is the bombing and I am certain that I "can" devastate the German fighter force in a game as a Soviet bombing at night.

Again this is only 1 bombing I set up in the Southeastern Air Army, think if I did this across the whole front. I will let that sink in.

Total aircraft destroyed on this one bombing run in the south.

11 German Fighters
6 Recon Planes

17 total planes destroyed on the ground 11 of them being precious fighters. I stand by what I said, "the Soviets are bombing the wrong thing".

Picture 1 or 3

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 10/26/2021 12:51:01 AM >

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:23:57 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Same base 2nd time same bombers

Picture 2 of 3

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 10/26/2021 12:30:54 AM >

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:24:30 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Same base 3rd time same bombers

Picture 3 of 3

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 10/26/2021 12:30:35 AM >

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:29:51 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Just think if those recon planes were not there to absorb some of those losses.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:37:04 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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I did not want to show Soviet Night bombing airfield again since I did not want to have it used against me. But since my games are on hold I did. Currently Germany is powerless to stop it unless they too want OPS losses to heaven and beyond. Then on top of that the Germans would be lucky to shoot down anything thus only suffering OPS losses and better to just not fly and instead "PRAY" to whatever gawd you believe in. Thus why AlbertN is looking for a solution to a problem. Just for info I tried intercepting at night in an AAR against Bobo and failed horribly. The documentation on this is in my AAR against Bobo.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 10/26/2021 12:44:27 AM >

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:43:01 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I did not want to show this again since I did not want to have it used against me. But since my games are on hold I did. Currently Germany is powerless to stop it unless they too want OPS losses to heaven and beyond. Then on top of that the Germans would be lucky to shoot down anything thus only suffering OPS losses and better to just not fly and instead "PRAY" to whatever gawd you believe in. Thus why AlbertN is looking for a solution to a problem. Just for info I tried intercepting at night in an AAR against Bobo and failed horribly. The documentation on this is in my AAR against Bobo.

There is a solution for the Germans to counter but not cost effective.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:54:39 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Just FYI German total with ~120ish planes was roughly doing ~0-5 losses per day of night bombing.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 10/26/2021 12:55:01 AM >

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 7:24:21 AM

loki100

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so we now have what ... 5 threads of endless posts telling us the game is utterly broken, biased whatever.

As to this, well first its utterly ahistoric that the LW would have pulled night fighters from city defence in the West. Really thats it.

Second, I can think of 2 solutions to create a NF presence pretty easily if I needed to.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 7:44:54 AM

Speedysteve

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If this is a problem right now the easiest thing is just to HR against any night bombing (except maybe U2�s for GS/GA vs units)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:07:42 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

so we now have what ... 5 threads of endless posts telling us the game is utterly broken, biased whatever.

As to this, well first its utterly ahistoric that the LW would have pulled night fighters from city defence in the West. Really thats it.

Second, I can think of 2 solutions to create a NF presence pretty easily if I needed to.

Loki, If you know of two solutions that could help AlbertN in his game why not give him the solutions along with everyone else on the forum that could use it? Instead we get the above :(

Loki you still fail to understand. Your "HATRED" for anyone that says anything about the game you don't like blinds you. It throws you into a demon fit that clouds your judgement and makes you lash out as if you are saying, "This is what WE have given you and you will like it, it is "infallible"! You really should open your eyes & your heart and stop with the hatred. I will pray for you.

Just to clarify, I never asked for NF's from the West. I have never asked for anything in this post other than showing that Night bombing can be done on German airfields. Mr. Billings asked for an example and I did the example. I get judged, convicted, and sent to jail by those that have closed minds.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:08:42 PM

MSAG

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Hi,
I am the reason of the Albert's post. In our game he is trashing me mightily (we are at T9).

Most soviet player air war strategies that I observed are: (1) stop using air force (perhaps with exception of some naval/air transport) or (2) use GS or interdict GA (taking massive losses). In my humble opinion both strategies do not bring material benefits at all or do it at prohibitive losses cost.

I was looking for alternatives -(after short trial we agreed with Albert not to use GA(unit) for now) I tried railway / railyard bombing day/night and day interdiction and airfield bombing as well. I also played with fighter fight settings (mainly by trying to make the fighters use the optimal altitude for their fights). I lost 2000+ LBs already paying for the lessons learned.

My night attacks were aimed at railyards. Frankly due to FOW I am not sure about the results. Most reports I was getting were showing manpower hits. Railyard hits were reported in maybe 25% of the cases. Aircraft losses vary. Typically 10-20% of planes. Flak moves it up. When Albert's fighters scrambled and intercepted the losses were close to 100%.

I think that if the effects are as erratic as reports suggest than no HR is necessary.

However, I would hate to adversely affect the playability for my opponent so I am open to accept any limitations he may deem needed.

BR
MSAG

(in reply to Speedysteve)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:11:01 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

If this is a problem right now the easiest thing is just to HR against any night bombing (except maybe U2�s for GS/GA vs units)

That is the easiest.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:21:42 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MSAG

Hi,
I am the reason of the Albert's post. In our game he is trashing me mightily (we are at T9).

Most soviet player air war strategies that I observed are: (1) stop using air force (perhaps with exception of some naval/air transport) or (2) use GS or interdict GA (taking massive losses). In my humble opinion both strategies do not bring material benefits at all or do it at prohibitive losses cost.

I was looking for alternatives -(after short trial we agreed with Albert not to use GA(unit) for now) I tried railway / railyard bombing day/night and day interdiction and airfield bombing as well. I also played with fighter fight settings (mainly by trying to make the fighters use the optimal altitude for their fights). I lost 2000+ LBs already paying for the lessons learned.

My night attacks were aimed at railyards. Frankly due to FOW I am not sure about the results. Most reports I was getting were showing manpower hits. Railyard hits were reported in maybe 25% of the cases. Aircraft losses vary. Typically 10-20% of planes. Flak moves it up. When Albert's fighters scrambled and intercepted the losses were close to 100%.

I think that if the effects are as erratic as reports suggest than no HR is necessary.

However, I would hate to adversely affect the playability for my opponent so I am open to accept any limitations he may deem needed.

BR
MSAG

From my experience & my two AAR's showing railroad bombing in them my vote would be "NO" HR for railyard bombing. I am sure many others on the forum can chime in with their experience too.

(in reply to MSAG)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:44:17 PM

MSAG

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Reading the whole conversation I would like to make one comment please.

In my opinion WITE2 is the most complex, amazingly rich and detailed WW2 strategic simulation ever created. It does great job in recreating the challenges, constraints and strategic decision dilemmas of both sides.

Full recreation of history is rather difficult to achieve in the game - humans use hindsight (German players practice 22 June opening and get ready for the harsh winter while Soviet players KNOW Germans cannot be stopped in the summer '41 and play accordingly).

The players also experiment with the simulation at times - to check what works and what does not (that is one the advantages of the system imho).

In some rare cases historically controversial results are achieved. That happens. In some cases these are bugs, in some the system works as designed while certain outcomes were not fully understood. Bugs will be fixed and the system can be finetuned.

In both cases the GG games have great history of designer follow up, patching and development.

This game is emphatically NOT broken. And I do not believe it is biased (although it poses different sets of challenges to soviet and axis players).

In short - it is a great game. And it is fun to play. Especially against human opponent.

BR
MSAG

(in reply to MSAG)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 12:50:56 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MSAG

Reading the whole conversation I would like to make one comment please.

In my opinion WITE2 is the most complex, amazingly rich and detailed WW2 strategic simulation ever created. It does great job in recreating the challenges, constraints and strategic decision dilemmas of both sides.

Full recreation of history is rather difficult to achieve in the game - humans use hindsight (German players practice 22 June opening and get ready for the harsh winter while Soviet players KNOW Germans cannot be stopped in the summer '41 and play accordingly).

The players also experiment with the simulation at times - to check what works and what does not (that is one the advantages of the system imho).

In some rare cases historically controversial results are achieved. That happens. In some cases these are bugs, in some the system works as designed while certain outcomes were not fully understood. Bugs will be fixed and the system can be finetuned.

In both cases the GG games have great history of designer follow up, patching and development.

This game is emphatically NOT broken. And I do not believe it is biased (although it poses different sets of challenges to soviet and axis players).

In short - it is a great game. And it is fun to play. Especially against human opponent.

BR
MSAG

You will not get an argument from me on this post at all. I will re-paste here what I wrote in another thread just a few minutes ago. Here is that post repasted;

quote:

Hardluckyetagain

The people that are posting still are the ones that LOVE the game. Of those people you have two groups, The Soviet Side & the German Side. These are the people that love the game so dearly that post threads will be brought to the forfront in hopes of making this game even better with these posts. See that is the Crux. Some believe these posts are trying to destroy the game into something else when in reality, if we just stop to listen and understand these players, it is the LOVE of this game that makes us want to contribute.

(in reply to MSAG)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 3:11:44 PM

GibsonPete

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"As to this, well first its utterly ahistorical that the LW would have pulled night fighters from city defense in the West. Really that's it."
Loki100
Absolutely true. I agree 100% but if this is a serious issue and you have one or more counters please share.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 3:17:35 PM

GibsonPete

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Has anyone tried to assign additional Flak to the targeted airfields?

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 3:24:24 PM

GibsonPete

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"However, I would hate to adversely affect the playability for my opponent so I am open to accept any limitations he may deem needed."
-MSAG

I believe that would be a mistake. Part of beauty of this game is finding a different solution to disrupt your opponent's plan (Human or AI). You did that. I believe your opponent your will come up with a counter move and you will be forced to rethink your strategy.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 4:07:52 PM

AlbertN

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MSAG agreed on the not using bombers for Ground Attack (Unit) and that's fine.

I am not going to impede him from night bombing other stuff - except maybe Airfields if what HYLA pointed above is true and German LW simply gets obliterated on the ground by night. (Or if it flies it crashes its own planes)

I definitely do add extra Flak to the relevant zones (For instance when Smolensk got surrounded I put roughly 200ish AA guns across Hqs and Divisions around it waiting for the Air Supply missions.)

In 1941 British bombing was hardly precise or so. I see no reason anyhow for which NJ squadrons cannot be moved in Russia, if the player wants, even in 1944 at this stage.
If the Soviets perform night bombings en mass - the game should allow the Axis to either:

a) Bring in Night Fighters from the West.
b) Create new NF squadrons to send to the East.

@ Loki: I can totally see (not) the situation where "We are marching to Moscow but the Soviets are destroying our supply trains overnight. We need to secure our logistics to get to Moscow" (or any other relevant target) and obviously it falls to deaf ears in Berlin.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 4:44:33 PM

Joch1955

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I will have to recheck my books, but as far as I recall, Russians in 1941 did not have the training or equipment to carry out night bombing by level bombers, certainly not massive raids of 250 day bombers. They should have a low probability of finding the target at all and large operational losses from ACs getting lost and running out of gas, running into each other or crashing when taking off and landing.

Black Cross, Red Star, vol 1 discusses the few night raids the Soviets carried out and as I recall, they were called off due to poor results and high losses.

(in reply to AlbertN)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 5:17:11 PM

Dreamslayer

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Here is an article by Mikhail Timin about actions of Soviet Long Range Bomber Aviation during first nights of the war - https://warspot.ru/2573-nesostoyavsheesya-vozmezdie-dalnyaya-bombardirovochnaya-aviatsiya (in Russian)
There are various info (like reports, orders, bomb loadouts etc.). Soviet VVS was able to provide night bombing at start of the war but they was very limited by number of trained crews for it, lack of intelligence information and mostly was used for missions of other kind.
If somebody fluent in Russian or has a patience to translate it somehow (by Google at least) I suggest to read it.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/26/2021 11:49:34 PM

Joel Billings

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Looking at the results of your test, they aren't far off from what we'd like to see (especially given this is bombing of a size 1 airfield that is full - it matters how many a/c are on the base and what kind of base it is). The interesting thing is how the flak losses decline as the missions go on. Thus less attacking a/c destroyed with each mission, but more importantly a much higher number of a/c on the ground are lost. If you looked at just the first two missions I'd say this was a Soviet defeat. Can you get these results fairly consistently when you rerun? If you add missions on the other days, does it continue the trend? Gary and I are wondering if our routines that can rearm the airfield with ammo may not be sufficient. Given this is a turn 1 test and the airfield is likely very near depots, it should be able to get more ammo. If you've got your save and can run more tests, it would be useful. If you get this consistent reduction in flak losses with each mission, please attach the save.

Although based on this test alone, we're not convinced that night bombing is ultimately a winning tactic (certainly doesn't seem decisive), but we're willing to make tweaks if it appears the results are too good. The player that reported losing 2000 a/c trying offensive missions seems to be arguing against it being an impactful strategy. Gary says his understanding was that the Soviets also tried some early night bombing and didn't do well and gave up on it for some time. He said in 1943 the Soviets did some major night bombing of the railyards/depot at Orel and that for this reason the Germans shifted some night fighters east, but that was the only time they did that (I see them in the reinforcement schedule). I think there was a reason we locked the units in the west, but I don't remember why we did that. I doubt it would be a big deal if we unlocked a few of the units since there is a cost to transferring them east and I don't see how they could be abused.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Dreamslayer)

Post #: 30