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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

 
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:04:52 AM   
AlbertN

 

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For what concerns the 2000+ airplanes lost, MSAG tried a lot of railyard bombing, at various depth in the Axis line - and the earlier ones were at daylight with subsequent butcherings on interceptions.
In our previous game (rebooted once the latest patch came out) MSAG even tried to bomb Brest-Litvosk railyard and Warsaw, on T3 or T4 I believe.

Presently I only see Night Missions, or in the last turn I saw the VVS pounded the Luftwaffe in the sky in a day fight (I consider a 1 Bf109 : 2.5 Mig3 ratio of losses favorable to the Soviets). Which is a first worrysome signal for me as more than 50% of the Bf109s flying got obliterated in an air combat. But that is another tale.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 31
RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:24:59 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Looking at the results of your test, they aren't far off from what we'd like to see (especially given this is bombing of a size 1 airfield that is full - it matters how many a/c are on the base and what kind of base it is). The interesting thing is how the flak losses decline as the missions go on. Thus less attacking a/c destroyed with each mission, but more importantly a much higher number of a/c on the ground are lost. If you looked at just the first two missions I'd say this was a Soviet defeat. Can you get these results fairly consistently when you rerun? If you add missions on the other days, does it continue the trend? Gary and I are wondering if our routines that can rearm the airfield with ammo may not be sufficient. Given this is a turn 1 test and the airfield is likely very near depots, it should be able to get more ammo. If you've got your save and can run more tests, it would be useful. If you get this consistent reduction in flak losses with each mission, please attach the save.

Although based on this test alone, we're not convinced that night bombing is ultimately a winning tactic (certainly doesn't seem decisive), but we're willing to make tweaks if it appears the results are too good. The player that reported losing 2000 a/c trying offensive missions seems to be arguing against it being an impactful strategy. Gary says his understanding was that the Soviets also tried some early night bombing and didn't do well and gave up on it for some time. He said in 1943 the Soviets did some major night bombing of the railyards/depot at Orel and that for this reason the Germans shifted some night fighters east, but that was the only time they did that (I see them in the reinforcement schedule). I think there was a reason we locked the units in the west, but I don't remember why we did that. I doubt it would be a big deal if we unlocked a few of the units since there is a cost to transferring them east and I don't see how they could be abused.


Thank you Sir as always. Night bombing German fighter bases may or may not be a winning strategy but from my games and the losses I have seen the Soviets take GA bombing & interdicting my Germans in the game I personally would have used the bombers on the night bombing fighter bases which is more of a German crux. I know I could in a year game time as a Soviet player in the game I personally could make night bombing German Airfields work and wreck the German Fighter arm. But that is just me.

I do have the saves but I hastily made a directive to try it out to see what I got. I ran the one bombing run again and this time I got;

12 Fighters & 9 Recon (Pictures attached)

I could sink some time into this if you like if you give me some scenario parameters you would like to see or a different scenario start point. More than happy to test this out and send you the saves from those parameters since I can spend more time into the directives instead of AD Hoc single directive I have now from all over the place and is "not" optimized. Just let me know if you like me to sink some time in it for you or you just want this AD Hoc directive I made.

Here are the pictures 1 of 3 (This is the 2nd running of same file save)





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 32
RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:25:37 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Picture 2 of 3






Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:26:06 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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picture 3 of 3




Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:39:32 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Ran again for third time

14 German Fighters
10 Recon

picture 1 of 3






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 10/27/2021 12:42:14 AM >

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:40:05 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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3rd run

Picture 2 of 3






Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:40:38 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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3rd run

Picture 3 of 3






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 10/27/2021 12:42:42 AM >

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:43:13 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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I will run one more time.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:47:23 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Run 4 of the bombing

19 Fighters
10 Recon

Picture 1 of 3




Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:48:01 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Run 4 of bombing

Picture 2 of 3




Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:48:34 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Run 4 bombing

Picture 3 of 3




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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:53:49 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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LOL, I ran a 5th run

10 fighters
12 Recon

Picture 1 of 3




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 10/27/2021 12:54:09 AM >

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:54:42 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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5th run

Picture 2 of 3




Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:55:20 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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5th Run

Picture 3 of 3




Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:56:15 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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I will continue to run a couple of more to see if I can get results less than this.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 1:12:17 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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6th bombing run

15 fighers
8 recon

****note 3rd bombing run did not happen in this one

7th bombing run

14 fighters
6 recon

8th bombing run

13 fighters
11 recon

9th bombing run

19 fighters
6 recon

pictures attached for bombing run 9 which should be enough, if not please let me know but the results to me seem pretty consistent.

picture 1 of 3 for 9th bombing run




Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 1:13:07 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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9th bombing run

picture 2 of 3





Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 1:13:45 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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9th bombing run

picture 3 of 3




Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 10:29:18 AM   
Joch1955

 

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I rechecked Black Cross, Red Star, vol.1, and the night bombing capability of the Russians in 41 was very low.

1st, regular bomber crews had very little night flying training. Most bombers also had no radio, only the flight leader had a radio. The rest of the flight just stayed in formation and followed his cue, very difficult to do at night. The Russians also only had very basic navigation instrumentation and none of the advanced tech, like navigation beams which the British and German were already using at that time.

2nd, the night bombing that did occur was generally carried out by special units, using the best pilots and experienced crews. The attacks on Berlin were carried out by IL-4s which had been equipped with radios. Even so, the attacks themselves were a bust. According to the Russians, the 1st was a resounding success with 6 bombers reaching downtown Berlin. According to the Germans, it was a bust, most Russian Bombers never even reached Berlin, one came close to the suburbs and was shot down by Flak. The 2nd attack by around 10 planes was also a bust, none reached berlin, one wound up over Stettin 80 miles away, some were shot down by friendly fire, 3 crashed when landing, etc. The Russians soon gave up.

IMHO, Russian night bombing in 41 should be even more ineffective. Based on a 1941 report, of RAF bombers taking off in night missions at that time, only 5% dropped their bombs within 5 miles of the intended target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butt_Report

< Message edited by Joch1955 -- 10/27/2021 11:24:57 AM >

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management - 10/27/2021 12:22:24 PM   
EddyBear81

 

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What about switching the Bf-110s and Me-210s groups to Night Fighter planes ? They should get better results.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 50
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