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Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 3:20:03 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Status: offline 		Any playing with "full motorization"?
Post #: 1
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 3:43:08 PM   
Teo41_ITA

 

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Status: offline 		You mean motorizing all non-motorized units?

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RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 4:11:03 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA

You mean motorizing all non-motorized units?


Yes

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RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 4:11:58 PM   
Teo41_ITA

 

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Status: offline 		Do you have enough vehicles and AP for that? I may give it a try ^^

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Post #: 4
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 4:33:40 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA

Do you have enough vehicles and AP for that? I may give it a try ^^


You sure do have enough vehicles and AP for Germany in 41. I made a prediction of how devastating it can be. Thus, I was asking if anyone was playing a game with full motorization to maybe have proven my prediction. I can prove it easily in an AI game but with a Head-to-head game could be more problematic, but the end result will still be devastating in current rule-set for motorization. Thus, anyone playing with current rule-set of full motorization?

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Post #: 5
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 5:21:20 PM   
jubjub

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 5/2/2021
Status: offline 		Gam3r and I allow it. Mostly it was just annoying in ‘41 bc Soviets were allowed to motorized at that time and I really had to keep my flanks secure.

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RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 5:35:09 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Gam3r and I allow it. Mostly it was just annoying in ‘41 bc Soviets were allowed to motorized at that time and I really had to keep my flanks secure.


Did you use motorization much or any in that game?

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Post #: 7
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 5:37:12 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 642
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From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		Please define "Full Motorization".

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RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 5:49:13 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke

Please define "Full Motorization".


Motorizing "non-motorized" units. i.e. motorizing a German(or Soviet in 42+) infantry division for 3 AP then the non-motorized German(or Soviet in 42+) infantry division gets motorization and a range of MP's from 32-48 as motorized. Or you can motorize a non-motorized infantry regiment for 1 AP and gain similar MP's from 32-48 as a motorized regiment. Thus gain a significant MP bonus of MP. Further in depth explanation can be found in the manual & the MP's I have noticed is normally 32-48 and may be different but that is what I have seen in my experiments. I hope this helps.

Please note that I am referencing "FULL" motorization as "NO" deviation from the rules in the manual. Meaning no house rules preventing said "motorized" units paid with AP from "not" going into ZOC.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/6/2021 5:51:07 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 6:06:07 PM   
jubjub

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Gam3r and I allow it. Mostly it was just annoying in ‘41 bc Soviets were allowed to motorized at that time and I really had to keep my flanks secure.


Did you use motorization much or any in that game?


Not very often. I wasn’t really looking to abuse it.

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Post #: 10
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 6:18:19 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Gam3r and I allow it. Mostly it was just annoying in ‘41 bc Soviets were allowed to motorized at that time and I really had to keep my flanks secure.


Did you use motorization much or any in that game?


Not very often. I wasn’t really looking to abuse it.


Understood, thank you for your answer.

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Post #: 11
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 6:32:07 PM   
Teo41_ITA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

You sure do have enough vehicles and AP for Germany in 41. I made a prediction of how devastating it can be. Thus, I was asking if anyone was playing a game with full motorization to maybe have proven my prediction. I can prove it easily in an AI game but with a Head-to-head game could be more problematic, but the end result will still be devastating in current rule-set for motorization. Thus, anyone playing with current rule-set of full motorization?


Well, as I play against the AI with the "Impossible" difficulty, the 30% reduction in the logistics, transport efficiency and AP gain is taking its toll on my vehicles pool and AP gain. Regardless, I only motorize units for 1 turn, if I need an extra speed bump to close/reinforce the wings of a large pocket.

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Post #: 12
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 6:54:16 PM   
metaphore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
[...] the MP's I have noticed is normally 32-48 and may be different but that is what I have seen in my experiments.


MPs recieved are based on prior MPs for the unit attempting motorization roll.
- If the unit pass a leader admin roll, MPs are multiplied by 3 => maximum is 48 (16 x 3)
- if the unit fail the roll, MPs are multiplied by 2 => maximum is 32

The 32-48 range is only possible for units having 16 MPs; if they have 15, it would be 30-45 or 28-42 for 14 MPs and so on.

So, to make the most of it, one need to pick those units with their full MPs and be sure that they are assigned to a good admin leader.

For example, if one want to "fully" motorize those three ID. in I. AK of 18. Armee on first turn for having a shot at Pskov on Turn 2, it's better to place them under LVI. AK directly before rolling any admin dice. Otherwise, up to three unlucky rolls could fail, while they will certainly all get their full bonus under Manstein.


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RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 8:20:41 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 642
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Status: offline 		I do that routinely in my games. The only way you can get units deep enough quickly, particularly with a Sir Robin.

Do you leave them motorized?


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RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 9:21:30 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
[...] the MP's I have noticed is normally 32-48 and may be different but that is what I have seen in my experiments.


MPs recieved are based on prior MPs for the unit attempting motorization roll.
- If the unit pass a leader admin roll, MPs are multiplied by 3 => maximum is 48 (16 x 3)
- if the unit fail the roll, MPs are multiplied by 2 => maximum is 32

The 32-48 range is only possible for units having 16 MPs; if they have 15, it would be 30-45 or 28-42 for 14 MPs and so on.

So, to make the most of it, one need to pick those units with their full MPs and be sure that they are assigned to a good admin leader.

For example, if one want to "fully" motorize those three ID. in I. AK of 18. Armee on first turn for having a shot at Pskov on Turn 2, it's better to place them under LVI. AK directly before rolling any admin dice. Otherwise, up to three unlucky rolls could fail, while they will certainly all get their full bonus under Manstein.




Correct.

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RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 9:23:21 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke

I do that routinely in my games. The only way you can get units deep enough quickly, particularly with a Sir Robin.

Do you leave them motorized?



You are playing the AI? I am looking for Head-to-head.

To get the most from the motorization takes a bit of different game play but looks I may have to prove it out in a Head-to-head game in the future after some more Air patches.

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Post #: 16
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 9:30:48 PM   
DeletedUser44

 

Posts: 397
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Status: offline 		I use it against the AI, as it is really over-powered, IMO.

In the early game, Germany has ample vehicles. So, to take a leg infantry div and "immediately" boost its movement from 16 to 45, at the cost of 3 AP and 1500 vehicles is hard to say no to.

I usually motorize 3 infantry divs (1 for each AG) at the start of the Barbarossa. Then later, when vehicles start to become scarce, I de-motorize them.

"Motorization" is not that unique of a concept and is included in many other historical simulations as well. HOWEVER, they usually incur a penalty as well, such as -

* 1 turn movement of 0 (when unit is first motorized); or,
* cannot enter other units ZOC; or,
* deduction in attack combat value; or,
* loss of motorization if unit attacked;
* ....

Currently, I think "motorization" could stand for a movement penalty of 0 movement points for the 1st turn of motorization. Otherwise, it is really too easy to exploit.


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Post #: 17
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 9:36:56 PM   
jubjub

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

I use it against the AI, as it is really over-powered, IMO.

In the early game, Germany has ample vehicles. So, to take a leg infantry div and "immediately" boost its movement from 16 to 45, at the cost of 3 AP and 1500 vehicles is hard to say no to.

I usually motorize 3 infantry divs (1 for each AG) at the start of the Barbarossa. Then later, when vehicles start to become scarce, I de-motorize them.

"Motorization" is not that unique of a concept and is included in many other historical simulations as well. HOWEVER, they usually incur a penalty as well, such as -

* 1 turn movement of 0 (when unit is first motorized); or,
* cannot enter other units ZOC; or,
* deduction in attack combat value; or,
* loss of motorization if unit attacked;
* ....

Currently, I think "motorization" could stand for a movement penalty of 0 movement points for the 1st turn of motorization. Otherwise, it is really too easy to exploit.




I like that idea.

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Post #: 18
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 9:52:10 PM   
DeletedUser44

 

Posts: 397
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Status: offline 		I am going to give an example of how easy it is to exploit....

------

There is some defending stack of units that you REALLY need to route (vs simply retreat.... requiring you to expend precious movement points later to have to attack again... we all know this situation, right?)

Anyways, you take a nearby trash infantry division, motorize it, then break it down to 3 infantry regiments (all with approximately 40+ movement points)

Now, with all those *immediately* acquired movement points, you can easily isolate and surround that troublesome defending hex.

With the unit isolated/surrounded, any RETREAT result is automatically converted into a ROUTE result.

Problem solved.... by exploiting WiTE2 "motorization".

-----

A 1 turn movement penalty of 0 MPs would stop this exploit. ( although I would miss using it. )

In reality, it is going to take some time to draw all the vehicles necessary from the global motor pool to motorize a full division anyways. Noway this happens immediately....

< Message edited by Sauron_II -- 11/6/2021 9:58:46 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 10:25:10 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

I am going to give an example of how easy it is to exploit....

------

There is some defending stack of units that you REALLY need to route (vs simply retreat.... requiring you to expend precious movement points later to have to attack again... we all know this situation, right?)

Anyways, you take a nearby trash infantry division, motorize it, then break it down to 3 infantry regiments (all with approximately 40+ movement points)

Now, with all those *immediately* acquired movement points, you can easily isolate and surround that troublesome defending hex.

With the unit isolated/surrounded, any RETREAT result is automatically converted into a ROUTE result.

Problem solved.... by exploiting WiTE2 "motorization".

-----

A 1 turn movement penalty of 0 MPs would stop this exploit. ( although I would miss using it. )

In reality, it is going to take some time to draw all the vehicles necessary from the global motor pool to motorize a full division anyways. Noway this happens immediately....


I have preached what you have wrote in your previous post and what is here. Motorization is devastating, yet we as WITE2 have not shown the current rendition to be true. Thus, I was seeing if any others have had head-to-head games where they used motorization to add to the rhetoric that is motorization to our repository of fact. Motorization is probably lacking since many players can see the writing on the wall or read what was written before by others and myself and ruled it out. I believe it is time to prove this out for those willing to be the lab rats for it to be used against them.

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Post #: 20
RE: Full Motorization - 11/6/2021 10:48:25 PM   
DeletedUser44

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I have preached what you have wrote in your previous post and what is here. Motorization is devastating, yet we as WITE2 have not shown the current rendition to be true. Thus, I was seeing if any others have had head-to-head games where they used motorization to add to the rhetoric that is motorization to our repository of fact. Motorization is probably lacking since many players can see the writing on the wall or read what was written before by others and myself and ruled it out. I believe it is time to prove this out for those willing to be the lab rats for it to be used against them.


I don't disagree with your assertion as I am sure there are other ways to blatantly exploit "motorization", that we, as gentlemen, have purposely avoided.

I can think of several possibilities as the German, without much effort.... like a concentrated motorization of 5 infantry divisions on turn 1 and make a mad dash towards Smolensk or Leningrad? You could probably get by without those vehicles (5 x 1500) for 3 or 4 turns.



< Message edited by Sauron_II -- 11/6/2021 10:59:05 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Full Motorization - 11/7/2021 1:19:10 AM   
metaphore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I have preached what you have wrote in your previous post and what is here. Motorization is devastating, yet we as WITE2 have not shown the current rendition to be true. Thus, I was seeing if any others have had head-to-head games where they used motorization to add to the rhetoric that is motorization to our repository of fact. Motorization is probably lacking since many players can see the writing on the wall or read what was written before by others and myself and ruled it out. I believe it is time to prove this out for those willing to be the lab rats for it to be used against them.


I don't disagree with your assertion as I am sure there are other ways to blatantly exploit "motorization", that we, as gentlemen, have purposely avoided.

I can think of several possibilities as the German, without much effort.... like a concentrated motorization of 5 infantry divisions on turn 1 and make a mad dash towards Smolensk or Leningrad? You could probably get by without those vehicles (5 x 1500) for 3 or 4 turns.


In game vs. AI, I would always use max motorization (6 ID) on turn 1, spending all my APs but one to clear my way towards Pskov and Smolensk while converting as much baltic rail as possible. I would also never kept them motorized for more than this first turn because, if used for an attack at full range, they would have bled all their CPP and have not much CV left. On turn 2, I would also motorize up to 4 more IDs (those I would have chosen and kept in reserve during T1) for consolidation work, but that's pretty much all of it for the use of temporary motorization.

That should also work for PvP as the initial setup is the same and there is nothing the Soviet can do to avoid a deep strike on T2 towards Pskov, Tallinn and Smolensk.

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Post #: 22
RE: Full Motorization - 11/7/2021 1:46:02 AM   
Rosencrantus

 

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Status: offline 		Temp motorisation is pretty broken. The developers say that temp moto is supposed to be like an ad hoc formation so I usually add a house rule that only one unit can be temp motorised per turn and that they can only move or attack in friendly controlled hexes. This limitation allows for friendly troops to be rapidly deployed and used for emergency situations while not being extremely broken as they would be if they were allowed to go into enemy hexes for breakthroughs.

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Post #: 23
RE: Full Motorization - 11/7/2021 3:34:09 PM   
Zemke


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From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		The game's motorization method may be broken or not, I am not sure what exactly is meant by "broken". Currently or in recent tests I have not been able to meet German Advance rates once you get into Sept and Oct against real humans. Advance rates can be exceeded in June and July, then bog down literally in Sept-Oct and that is using motorization in June and July when needed. After that motorization really has no effect, unless you get a good breakthrough, and given most Soviet players have a layered defense set up by Sept-Oct that never happened for me.

I know the below comments cause some "consternation", I just want to say testing this game is HARD. It is very large and very deep, and getting at the correct problem can be hard because what may appear to be an issue of some importance, may not be the real root cause of a larger problem. Granted what I say is a problem may not be what other think is a problem.

Frankly, I think everyone is nibbling around the edges of the real issue, which is, why most players playing Germany in WitE cannot match history in 1941. (1) Joe has said there has never been a test to see if the game can match history. (2) So in all the games played PvP, I have only seen one reference to a game in the AAR section (See Unicorn Post) that was close to German limits of advance in 1941, ONE, even in that game the Germans were six hexes from Moscow. This does not mean there are not others, but out of all the games, there has been one posted. That should cause concern right there. (3) Playing into Fall of 1944 against the AI and now into Fall 1943 in a PvP myself attempts to "boost" German settings in the hope of matching German performance in 1941, create havoc for the Russians into 42 and 43.

So with all the above said, the MAIN issue as I see it is, attempts to "balance 1941" creates "unbalance" in 1942-43. Much of this is perfect hindsight by all players. When I play the Russians my PRIMARY goal is the preservation of the Red Army, protecting Objective second as long as there is no sudden loss possible. Also, no Germans push to the gates of Moscow in an effort to get an early victory because it is simply not very likely and to try burns out many units that will not recover for many months.

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Post #: 24
RE: Full Motorization - 11/7/2021 4:14:28 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
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Status: offline 		I do not believe temp motorization breaks the game or is an exploit or needs to be nerfed. It is option the player(s) can choose to use or not use. There are many exploits a player can use against the AI to get results they want. The most obvious is the use of save/reload to get the outcome they desire. Another is the lack of Hitler or Stalin directives to reach insane goals. I understand HYLA's point and I think in a Human game there needs to be agreed upon ground rules but against the AI that does not abide by the same rules you do... no. Achieving early victory goals without using temp motorization is very difficult for me. I am try trying other techniques but so far temp motorization works best. The AP cost limits my use of it since I build depots, repair ports and swap leaders. Just a point of view.

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Post #: 25
RE: Full Motorization - 11/7/2021 4:15:42 PM   
Gunnulf


Posts: 686
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Status: offline 		My current game with AAR I reached everything I needed to in the south and centre well ahead of schedule without ever motorising any units. Its perfectly possible to keep a solid advance pace going with the panzergruppes leading and infantry marching behind in their wake. For me motorisation pretty broken as a concept as hinted to at the exploits above to try to get an extra corps of panzer grenadiers and I simply don't use it, but reading some of the above strikes a bit of fear into me how it might be used against me. I can see the rationale behind allowing the transport corps to taxi a unit strategically behind the lines from A to B especially usefully when the rails don't go in the right direction, but I don't see how this can be justified as a combat move to be honest.

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Post #: 26
RE: Full Motorization - 11/7/2021 4:24:11 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		I agree with Zemke. The real issue is why we cannot achieve what was done by the Axis/Soviets historically. All the players out there and none of them can replicate what the Axis did in 41. None can replicate what the Soviets did in 43/44. So we end up trying things that would not be considered historically, Like temp motorization or overloading a theater box to gain VPs or sending bombers away to save freight. The answer is out there.

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Post #: 27
RE: Full Motorization - 11/7/2021 4:49:48 PM   
Beethoven1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

I agree with Zemke. The real issue is why we cannot achieve what was done by the Axis/Soviets historically. All the players out there and none of them can replicate what the Axis did in 41. None can replicate what the Soviets did in 43/44. So we end up trying things that would not be considered historically, Like temp motorization or overloading a theater box to gain VPs or sending bombers away to save freight. The answer is out there.


These results where in past games Axis has not been doing as well as history are based on the previous combat system in the previous patch. The new beta patch has generally more favorable combat for Germany in 1941, which makes it a lot easier to achieve historical advance for Axis. You will start to see this in new AARs, but there has not been time for it to happen yet since the new patch/combat system is relatively new.

As Gunnulf says, in his game he has achieved historical (or better) results recently, and most of that was even played with the old patch I think.

You can also look at our ongoing AAR, For the Infallible GröFaZ - Axis 1941 GC Team Game to see an example of Axis victory. Our victory is inevitable in that game, due to the infallibility of our GröFaZ and the skilled Auftragstaktik of our Army Group commanders. And indeed, as a result of that (plus also of playing with the new patch) we have already taken Pskov on turn 2 and are destroying numerous Red Army formations, making fantastic progress.

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Post #: 28
RE: Full Motorization - 11/7/2021 5:21:28 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

I agree with Zemke. The real issue is why we cannot achieve what was done by the Axis/Soviets historically. All the players out there and none of them can replicate what the Axis did in 41. None can replicate what the Soviets did in 43/44. So we end up trying things that would not be considered historically, Like temp motorization or overloading a theater box to gain VPs or sending bombers away to save freight. The answer is out there.


You can't achieve either as neither side in the game is going to act like history books say they did. So that isn't a real issue. And who spends $80.00 to recreate history when there is a Youtube series that does it for free. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu3p7dxrhl8&t=328s

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Post #: 29
RE: Full Motorization - 11/7/2021 5:31:51 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
You can't achieve either as neither side in the game is going to act like history books say they did. So that isn't a real issue. And who spends $80.00 to recreate history when there is a Youtube series that does it for free.

No need to recreate history, the game need to recreate historical conditions and circumstances.

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