RE: Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Because of No Retreat.

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> Tech Support >> RE: Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Because of No Retreat.

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RE: Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Be... - 11/10/2021 4:49:14 PM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

Anyway in the image, unless some italian unti/s are in a GE stack, I can only see a maximum of 2 HQ +5 (not 6) other non hq IT units. So 1 at least would be safe if this was the case.

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 31

RE: Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Be... - 11/10/2021 4:57:53 PM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

That has to do with the way the rulebook is written. What is stated the last, is the rule which cancels all previous rules.

So where in the rules is this stated?

I would agree with Centuur, from Clarifications:

quote:

Q17.4-2

Collapsing Vichy - You may not enter a neutral Major Power on your side. How could Axis units enter Metropolitan Vichy France to collapse it?

Vichy rules override standard neutral entry rules. Date 29/12/2007

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 11/10/2021 4:58:13 PM >

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 32

RE: Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Be... - 11/10/2021 5:02:55 PM

rkr1958

Posts: 23483
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
So: when there are Allied units in Metropolitan Vichy France all Axis units can enter. No FTC apply anymore.

This appears (to me at least) to be the way MWiF is coded. And, I also agree with your interpretation that FTC doesn't apply to any of the axis given that an allied unit has entered metro Vichy. But in this regard we appear to be in the minority (opinion).

What to me is clear, is that there's a bug where the two shattered Italian units were destroyed instead of "retreated and shattered".

_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 33

RE: Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Be... - 11/10/2021 5:21:38 PM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
So: when there are Allied units in Metropolitan Vichy France all Axis units can enter. No FTC apply anymore.

This appears (to me at least) to be the way MWiF is coded. And, I also agree with your interpretation that FTC doesn't apply to any of the axis given that an allied unit has entered metro Vichy. But in this regard we appear to be in the minority (opinion).

What to me is clear, is that there's a bug where the two shattered Italian units were destroyed instead of "retreated and shattered".

Well, as I just said count me in that "minority", although I dont think it's a matter of voting considering what Harry said in the Clarifications.

However, were we wrong for some reason, what would have been wrong would be having allowed the extra units in France, not destroying them because of FTC because in that phase they WERE in FTC violation (if we and Harry are wrong).

Another matter is whether you want to compensate somehow the player because it's unfair that he loses 2 units because of FTC when the game should have not allowed him to get them in, in the first place (if we and Harry are wrong) making that loss impossible.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 11/10/2021 5:22:55 PM >

(in reply to rkr1958)

Post #: 34

RE: Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Be... - 11/10/2021 5:56:45 PM

rkr1958

Posts: 23483
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
Well, as I just said count me in that "minority", although I dont think it's a matter of voting considering what Harry said in the Clarifications.

+3 now ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
Another matter is whether you want to compensate somehow the player because it's unfair that he loses 2 units because of FTC when the game should have not allowed him to get them in, in the first place (if we and Harry are wrong) making that loss impossible.

This will (soon) be posted in our AAR.

Our group has unanimously agreed to the following wrt/Axis units in Metropolitan Vichy France.
(1) The Italian HQ-A (Graziani) and II Mtn corps that were destroyed even through they had a valid retreat through Metropolitan Vichy hexes will be "shattered" instead through the magic of editing (If applicable, will do the same for any future land combat).
(2) Italian units will be allowed access to Metropolitan Vichy France without FTC limits, which (rightly or wrongly) is how MWiF is currently coded.

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 11/10/2021 6:00:00 PM >

_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 35

RE: Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Be... - 11/11/2021 5:21:27 AM

BrianJH

Posts: 260
Joined: 5/4/2014
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
So: when there are Allied units in Metropolitan Vichy France all Axis units can enter. No FTC apply anymore.

Really!? Could you show me that rule that says FTC does not apply anymore?

< Message edited by BrianJH -- 11/11/2021 5:38:53 AM >

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 36

RE: Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Be... - 11/11/2021 12:08:47 PM

eouellet

Posts: 112
Joined: 2/1/2018
Status: offline

I agree with Brian here. The key rules are:

17.4 Access to Vichy territory
However, if an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France, Vichy France becomes hostile to that unit's controlling major power. [That�s how Vichy becomes hostile]

If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits. [If Vichy becomes hostile, that�s how the installing power, and only that one, can enter into Vichy]

17.4 Vichy French collapse
If an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France before it has collapsed:
� Axis units can enter Metropolitan Vichy France without causing a collapse;
[That only says Axis unit can go into Vichy without causing a collapse, but does not say how Axis can enter Vichy]

18.1 Who can co-operate
10. Vichy French units do not co-operate with any major power.
[Can�t be more clear]

23. Index & Glossary
Friendly (a major power or minor country on your side)

18.2 Foreign troop commitments
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesn�t co-operate with is destroyed unless:
� it started the step there; or
� it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.
[That�s how normally a power can enter another power�s territory on the same side when they do not cooperate]

As a work around until the bug is fixed, implementing manually the FTC for Italy (for most games anyway) would be the right to do, i.e. not allowing more Italian units to enter and end their movement in Metropolitan Vichy territory than allowed by the FTC.

(in reply to BrianJH)

Post #: 37

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