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Issue port "0" can the location be sea bombarded?

 
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Issue port "0" can the location be sea bombar... - 11/17/2021 3:57:44 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		See this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5101028&mpage=1&key=�

There the nav support issue is cleared up.

But can bases be bombarded by sea that have no port? I ask specific for:
Namatanai , at 107,125 in this case. Thanks.

I believe it can be bombarded but should not - I remember trying this and the TF accepted the order (iirc)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 11/17/2021 3:59:21 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 4:02:20 PM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Yes, bases can be bombarded even if there is no port or airfield currently build at the base.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 2
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 4:06:37 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		The question would be why would you? If there's no port there isn't going to be a lot of port supply to blow up. Same if there's no airfield. The commander will possibly choose to aim at any troops present in the hex. I don't believe you can't bombard even if there isn't a dot there as long as there are LCUs to shoot at. Don't remember doing that though.

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RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 4:15:10 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

The question would be why would you? If there's no port there isn't going to be a lot of port supply to blow up. Same if there's no airfield. The commander will possibly choose to aim at any troops present in the hex. I don't believe you can't bombard even if there isn't a dot there as long as there are LCUs to shoot at. Don't remember doing that though.


There is a size 4 airfield in my game plus ca. 13/14 units and a hundred or so planes. I hoped a while the base could be safe from sea bombardement but seems the hope was in vain

I read here in the forum a while ago, locations without port are meant to be farther inland and nav guns may not reach there, seems to be wrong...

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 11/17/2021 4:16:32 PM >

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 4
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 5:09:01 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Only if the location is a coastal hex. Inland cities have a (0) port but would be rather difficult to bombard from the sea . . .

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(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 5
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 5:15:04 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Only if the location is a coastal hex. Inland cities have a (0) port but would be rather difficult to bombard from the sea . . .


Nama is an inland "city" or I guess better village, as it has 0 and also cannot build a port, contrary to what Kull said in the linked thread. So sea bombardement should not be possible. Can someone try this perhaps when Nama has an AF but no port?

I tried it w/ my Allied game but in there teh "AI" IJ has bulid nothing there, the TF moved there but I got no report of a bombardement (probably cause there is nothing to bombard )

Again I am confused here.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 11/17/2021 5:16:40 PM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 5:25:35 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		An island dot base with a (0) port and a (0) airbase is a great place to put float planes and flying boats. They won't be able to be bombed at the airfield and with no port, what is the probability that someone will suspect that there is an aircraft tender there along with aircraft?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 7
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 5:28:22 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

An island dot base with a (0) port and a (0) airbase is a great place to put float planes and flying boats. They won't be able to be bombed at the airfield and with no port, what is the probability that someone will suspect that there is an aircraft tender there along with aircraft?


Agreed thanks... however I ask for Nama and there is a AF size 4 but zero port...




Attachment (1)

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 8
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 5:34:27 PM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Every base in the game has a port level, inland bases have a port level of 0 and you cannot increase their port level, for obvious reasons.

Every base that is in a coastal hex can be hit by bombardments, no matter what levels the port, airfield or fortifications are.
The base Namatanai is in a coastal hex and thus can be bombardment.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 9
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 5:38:48 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

Every base in the game has a port level, inland bases have a port level of 0 and you cannot increase their port level, for obvious reasons.

Every base that is in a coastal hex can be hit by bombardments, no matter what levels the port, airfield or fortifications are.
The base Namatanai is in a coastal hex and thus can be bombardment.


Ah this sucks, I thought it could be safe, thanks for clearing that up.

You mean the light blue hexes..right? I thought they are called shallow not coastal, my mistake I guess

But why can Kull build a port there (his pic in the linked thread)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 11/17/2021 5:40:02 PM >

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 10
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 5:58:31 PM   
Maallon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

Every base in the game has a port level, inland bases have a port level of 0 and you cannot increase their port level, for obvious reasons.

Every base that is in a coastal hex can be hit by bombardments, no matter what levels the port, airfield or fortifications are.
The base Namatanai is in a coastal hex and thus can be bombardment.


Ah this sucks, I thought it could be safe, thanks for clearing that up.

You mean the light blue hexes..right? I thought they are called shallow not coastal, my mistake I guess

But why can Kull build a port there (his pic in the linked thread)

Because the base is in a coastal hex and thus can build a port. Only inland bases cannot build ports.
(There are a few exceptions here as some inland bases are adjacent to a major river and because of this are able to expand their port)

"Shallow" refers to ocean hexes, there are two types of ocean hexes: shallow and deep.
A coastal hex is a hex that has both an ocean and a landmass, not all shallow hexes are coastal hexes.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 11
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 6:01:58 PM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Sorry I didn't read the full thread you were referencing to until now.
I don't know why you can't build up the port in your game.
Which Scenario are you playing?
Also please share a screenshot of the base in your game.

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 12
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 6:07:51 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		I posted above a pic already, can others not see it? The button for port building is greyed as evidenced in the pic. If pic can not be seen by others it might be a forum issue, can an admin perhaps check this?

snip for mods/admins:
...I do not want to post pics all the time and they do not show up plus the search in the forum does not work too for me. And others have the same issue, is someone looking into these?

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 13
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 6:11:46 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I am playing Allies in the updated scen001.

Select Namatanai and press F6. You will sea that Namatanai can be accessed by ships through 4 hexsides (three ocean hexsides and one land/ocean hexside).

And yes, I can expand the port in Namatanai. The expand button is there.

What mod/scenario are you playing?

< Message edited by Yaab -- 11/17/2021 6:13:22 PM >

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 14
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 6:12:51 PM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		No I see it, I missed it because you managed to sneak it in while I was writing my response that followed shortly after the screenshot.

Which scenario are you playing?

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 15
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 6:17:23 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		"Stock scen2" should be latest beta... I also noted that all allied locations seem to have +1 for their industries.

Oh well, probably some error, game is too old and unsupported by the company and everyone makes some mods etc. and all is mixed up in the end.

Thread can end here, I will continue the ongoing PBM and then put it away. The forum "climate" is also not the best I noted: Thanks and nice evening

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 16
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 6:25:17 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		You can modify the scenario yourself.

You can also ask the person who made the maps about this issue. If it is incorrect, he can correct it.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 17
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 7:13:55 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		See my post in this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4977084&mpage=2&key=

Starbuck Island just changed for no known reason. It started as a base and the port could be built and then it changed
to an airfield and the port could not be built any more.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 18
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 8:34:14 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

The question would be why would you? If there's no port there isn't going to be a lot of port supply to blow up. Same if there's no airfield. The commander will possibly choose to aim at any troops present in the hex. I don't believe you can't bombard even if there isn't a dot there as long as there are LCUs to shoot at. Don't remember doing that though.

I have done that in my sandbox setups. It was necessary to get a good DL on the troops in the coastal hex before you could fire at them, and often a series of bad weather days killed the MDL and DL. No bombardment then.

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(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 19
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 8:38:21 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Only if the location is a coastal hex. Inland cities have a (0) port but would be rather difficult to bombard from the sea . . .


Nama is an inland "city" or I guess better village, as it has 0 and also cannot build a port, contrary to what Kull said in the linked thread. So sea bombardement should not be possible. Can someone try this perhaps when Nama has an AF but no port?

I tried it w/ my Allied game but in there teh "AI" IJ has bulid nothing there, the TF moved there but I got no report of a bombardement (probably cause there is nothing to bombard )

Again I am confused here.

Your bombardment TF probably lacked a DL on the enemy sufficient to target them. Namatanai is a Jungle or Jungle Rough hex so spotting troops would be a problem. Bombing the hex for a few turns might raise the DL enough for a naval bombardment.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 20
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 8:46:52 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

An island dot base with a (0) port and a (0) airbase is a great place to put float planes and flying boats. They won't be able to be bombed at the airfield and with no port, what is the probability that someone will suspect that there is an aircraft tender there along with aircraft?


Agreed thanks... however I ask for Nama and there is a AF size 4 but zero port...




Someone has monkeyed with the "Port Build" boxes in the editor. I am using stock Scenario 1. Here is my Namatanai base, with a clear button for expansion of the port.





Edit to add: If you have Kavieng, you don't need to build a port at Namatanai because of the road linking the two. Just set one click of supply draw at Namatanai.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 11/17/2021 8:50:37 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 21
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 8:52:51 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

"Stock scen2" should be latest beta... I also noted that all allied locations seem to have +1 for their industries.

Oh well, probably some error, game is too old and unsupported by the company and everyone makes some mods etc. and all is mixed up in the end.

Thread can end here, I will continue the ongoing PBM and then put it away. The forum "climate" is also not the best I noted: Thanks and nice evening

The +1 for industries on mouseover is just a quirk that affects nothing. Those +1 don't exist.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 22
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 9:02:09 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Only if the location is a coastal hex. Inland cities have a (0) port but would be rather difficult to bombard from the sea . . .


Nama is an inland "city" or I guess better village, as it has 0 and also cannot build a port, contrary to what Kull said in the linked thread. So sea bombardement should not be possible. Can someone try this perhaps when Nama has an AF but no port?

I tried it w/ my Allied game but in there teh "AI" IJ has bulid nothing there, the TF moved there but I got no report of a bombardement (probably cause there is nothing to bombard )

Again I am confused here.

Your bombardment TF probably lacked a DL on the enemy sufficient to target them. Namatanai is a Jungle or Jungle Rough hex so spotting troops would be a problem. Bombing the hex for a few turns might raise the DL enough for a naval bombardment.


Don't forget to have any float planes set to "Recon" to help.

I am sure that if Alfred was available, he could describe the best way to do this along with documentation and threads. That said, try a search.

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 23
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/17/2021 11:19:42 PM   
Kull


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From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Agreed thanks... however I ask for Nama and there is a AF size 4 but zero port...





Look closely at your attachment. Even though the name of the "base type" is partially obscured, it appears to be an "Australian Primary Airfield". By definition, those are NOT hexes with Port capability - start up a December 8th campaign as Allies and you'll see the Australian outback is full of them, but not a single one exists on an island or coastline hex. By contrast look at my attachment below, which also shows Namatani under Japanese control. It's an "Australian Base", and those types always include both ports and airfields.

Whether this was a bug which appeared suddenly (similar to the situation Nomad described in this very thread) or is a feature of the scenario you are playing (as BBfanboy suggests) is something that you could determine by looking at old saves to see if at any point that base type was correct, or if it shows up incorrectly on scenario start.

If it is a bug - and it might well be - I can only say that it's extremely rare, and this is only the second instance I'm aware of in the history of this game.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to Alpha77)
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RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 12:13:25 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

The question would be why would you? If there's no port there isn't going to be a lot of port supply to blow up. Same if there's no airfield. The commander will possibly choose to aim at any troops present in the hex. I don't believe you can't bombard even if there isn't a dot there as long as there are LCUs to shoot at. Don't remember doing that though.


I've tried bombarding a non base coastal hex with enemy ground units in it. The TF goes to the destination, but I haven't seen one expend any ammunition. So either:

(a) no they don't; or

(b) the DL wasn't good enough.

Edit: after reading BBfb's posts,it seems to be option (B).

< Message edited by Ian R -- 11/18/2021 12:23:44 AM >

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RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 12:30:05 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

See my post in this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4977084&mpage=2&key=

Starbuck Island just changed for no known reason. It started as a base and the port could be built and then it changed
to an airfield and the port could not be built any more.


I have had the same thing occur with respect to:

Baker Island

Howland island (but not at the same time as Baker)

Norfolk Island

Usually you can still offload amphib TFs at those places.

There is an island near Flores (Kalao, 66/110) where you can't off load anything by sea at all, but can land flying boats, and other aircraft once the air strip is 1+. LST opened up the data with the pwhex editor, and it has a "no amphib" setting. That setting seems to be a permanent feature.





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Post #: 26
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 1:08:44 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Most coastal hexes can't support a port no matter how many engineers you have, think D-Day and the mulberries. But if there's an airfield on a hex and BBs can enter that same hex they absolutely can bombard it. If the mapmaker intended it to be beyond the range they wouldn't have put it in a coastal hex.

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Post #: 27
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 1:53:49 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
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From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I have had the same thing occur with respect to:

Baker Island

Howland island (but not at the same time as Baker)

Norfolk Island

Usually you can still offload amphib TFs at those places.


Hi Ian - Sorry, I didn't read the linked thread thoroughly, so yes, this is a third instance of that bug. I noticed that with Nomad and Alpha77, it occurred with a PBEM game. I know yours was a mod, but was it also PBEM?


_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 28
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 4:00:15 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		For me it was at least both Starbuck Island and Norfolk Island that changed in that one game. It was a BTS game, so it was a mod. I have no idea if that was the problem.

As far as I know you can not set this up in the editor to happen like this.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 11/18/2021 4:04:30 AM >

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 29
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 5:50:18 AM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		Decided to come back to the thread as this seems a cool issue.

When I start a fresh scen (stock like the PBM I ask for here) then Nama shows up as "Australian base" like Kull said. Seems there was a f-up during some update (we installed latest patch and a database update which fixes some small things like IJ radar update but may introduce some issues like this one)

So can the "primary airfield" then be bombarded, guessing no

And this has nothing to do w/ DL or floatplanes as spotters, a TF will bombard in any case, the D/L only defines if or how much it hits at the target. But TF will bombard as long the setting is right (eg. absolute and direct)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 11/18/2021 5:54:04 AM >

(in reply to Nomad)
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