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RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bombarded?

 
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RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 6:21:22 AM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I am sure that if Alfred was available, he could describe the best way to do this along with documentation and threads. That said, try a search.


..snip
I rather not listen to Alfred when it comes to PBM even if he seems to know a bit of game theory (!). I also do not like his tone, he is not needed here for my issue, cause others figured it out already Search is broken ..snip

So I checked other bases and only those inland have the primary airfield description which would lead to the conclusion if Nama has the same description it can not be bombarded, right or wrong who wants to bet

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 11/18/2021 6:26:09 AM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 31
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 7:49:09 AM   
Alpha77

 

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Status: offline 		Another question crossed my mind, I laid some mines at Nama, now these mines do not show up in the base screen. But a mine symbol is shown - will these mines work at all there, if this is treated like an inland base???

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 32
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 8:19:03 AM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Most coastal hexes can't support a port no matter how many engineers you have, think D-Day and the mulberries. But if there's an airfield on a hex and BBs can enter that same hex they absolutely can bombard it. If the mapmaker intended it to be beyond the range they wouldn't have put it in a coastal hex.


Ok, I tried to send Nagato into the hex and the TF accepted the order..does this suggest now even if it is an inland base and has zero port that Nama can be bombarded...
Well guess I just need to wait when the Allied player decides to take the risk and has sunken even more of my ships and then I find out.
However it would be better to know this before and not plan for the base to be a major point of resistance.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 11/18/2021 8:23:03 AM >

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 33
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 8:52:22 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		If your TF is in the same hex as the base, it can bombard the base. It doesn't matter if some setting won't let you build a port - you have a hex with both land and navigable sea in it, so the bombardment can happen. The game doesn't look for a port. Inland means no navigable waters are in the hex. Depth of the water is irrelevant in this context too - that mainly affects mines and submarines.

Ports were mentioned just as an easy way to distinguish between and SPS(0) port that can be built to size 3 because it is on a coast or navigable estuary vs an inland base that shows the word Port in the base screen but cannot build a port if the settings in the database are correct. That advice in turn got muddled because your coastal port at Namatanai for some reason will not let you build a port there. Shouldn't be that way, but it is.

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(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 34
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 9:47:50 AM   
Alpha77

 

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Status: offline 		Ok topic answered, bombardements will work and also the mines.

However this should be changed urgently, cause if every base can be stomped to the ground by "serial sea bombardements" then air game gets less interesting.As the planes will die from fire by sea. Now why is this wrong ?

Cause an AF in AE represent not 1 airfield but eg. lvl. 5 might be 5 smaller airfields spread around in the hex. 3 of these fields may be 30km from the coast. Now it is so that even 40mm fire can target every plane/unit on the base disregarding what is said above and range

Also not historical btw.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 11/18/2021 10:15:58 AM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 35
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 10:57:19 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

I know yours was a mod, but was it also PBEM?


AI game, and yes a mod of #10 ironman.

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Post #: 36
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 11:41:51 AM   
Maallon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Ok topic answered, bombardements will work and also the mines.

However this should be changed urgently, cause if every base can be stomped to the ground by "serial sea bombardements" then air game gets less interesting.As the planes will die from fire by sea. Now why is this wrong ?

Cause an AF in AE represent not 1 airfield but eg. lvl. 5 might be 5 smaller airfields spread around in the hex. 3 of these fields may be 30km from the coast. Now it is so that even 40mm fire can target every plane/unit on the base disregarding what is said above and range

Also not historical btw.

An AF in WITPAE doesn't represent multiple airfields but one airfield of different size.
A B-17 needs a level 5 airfields to bomb targets with a normal bomb load, this requirement is in place because such heavy bombers needed an appropriate sized airfields with facilities to run strike missions, they couldn't start or land from too small of an airfield either in reality.
A B-17 wouldn't care if you have 5 small airfields in a hex, as it couldn't start from a single one of them.
But as the only requirement ingame for normal flight operations is a level 5 airfield this does represent one AF of size 5.

If you want to make it harder on your enemy to damage your airfield from sea there are several tools at your disposal to achieve this: Build up fortifications - fortifications protects every asset in a hex from damage, including the airfield, place a minefield, have your own SCTF in the vicinity, use submarines, use bombers to intercept approaching SCTF - a TF can only move so many hexes per phase at maximum, especially as Japan you should see them coming before they can reach you or at the very least make them pay during the day air phase.
Normally bombarding a base that is so close to Rabaul should be a fairly risky endeavor for your enemy.
If you can't defend the base and think it is at risk, maybe it is time to think about withdrawing some assets.

Also WITPAE is not a simulation, there is a lot of abstraction in the game.
And there are historical cases where an airfield got heavily damaged from sea, see the Japanese bombardment of Henderson Field at the 14th October 1942.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 37
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 11:48:34 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
There is an island near Flores (Kalao, 66/110) where you can't off load anything by sea at all, but can land flying boats, and other aircraft once the air strip is 1+. LST opened up the data with the pwhex editor, and it has a "no amphib" setting. That setting seems to be a permanent feature.


No, the amphib setting can be toggled to yes in the editor, which solves the unloading issue.


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(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 38
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 12:33:58 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Status: offline 		Malloon, you are still pretty new and might not remember older topics/posts. I however do and know certainly that it was said and not disputed (iirc) that a hex contains severall AFs. This is also logical if you look at hex size.. Rabaul for example in history had several AFs and other places too that would represent perhaps size 8+ in game (eg. the staging areas of big bombing campaigns). You did not have in WW2 even not in England and less so in the pacific single AFs that would be as big as a major civil airport (perhaps Frankfurt might be a 9 or so).

If the search would work I could dig that up for you. I also know of WW2 history and Henderson field etc.


< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 11/18/2021 12:38:04 PM >

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 39
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 12:36:26 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Also this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Moresby_Airfield_Complex

One hex in game, seven different airfields in real life.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 40
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 12:40:47 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Also this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Moresby_Airfield_Complex

One hex in game, seven different airfields in real life.


There are a dozen examples, one of the major ones is Okinawa. Maybe the 1945 Allied AFs there represent in game a 7 or 8, but that can only be guessed.

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 41
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 12:42:01 PM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
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From: Germany
Status: offline 		I didn't state that this was not the case in real life.
But I have never seen ingame that several airfields inside a hex could be bombed or bombarded, so I do think that this is abstracted into one airfield for game purposes.
I admit that I could be wrong, but I would need evidence for that.
Also the question would still arise how multiple airfields inside a hex are important for WITPAE mechanics?

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 42
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 12:44:00 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon
so I do think that this is abstracted into one airfield for game purposes.


Yes this is what I was saying I am not native english speaker, so I might explained it not perfectly.

Anyways the game will not be upgraded, so my hint for that was useless - as stating these flaws makes no difference we just need to live with them..

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 43
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 12:45:30 PM   
Maallon


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Status: offline 		Okay, then I misunderstood your statement. I am no native speaker either.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 44
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 12:55:00 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

I didn't state that this was not the case in real life.
But I have never seen ingame that several airfields inside a hex could be bombed or bombarded, so I do think that this is abstracted into one airfield for game purposes.
I admit that I could be wrong, but I would need evidence for that.
Also the question would still arise how multiple airfields inside a hex are important for WITPAE mechanics?


Here, post #29

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2592612&mpage=1&key=abstraction%2Cairfield�

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 45
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 1:06:36 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Status: offline 		I am sorry I brought that up again... it was dumb, there will be no official patch etc. for the game, so it was a waste that I posted it. Forget it and move on, the thread here is solved

And I also do not care much that I can not build a port at Nama

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 11/18/2021 1:09:23 PM >

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 46
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 1:20:58 PM   
Maallon


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From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

I didn't state that this was not the case in real life.
But I have never seen ingame that several airfields inside a hex could be bombed or bombarded, so I do think that this is abstracted into one airfield for game purposes.
I admit that I could be wrong, but I would need evidence for that.
Also the question would still arise how multiple airfields inside a hex are important for WITPAE mechanics?


Here, post #29

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2592612&mpage=1&key=abstraction%2Cairfield�


Okay, Alfred does state that there can be multiple AFs in a single hex, so I am inclined to believe it and admit that I was wrong.
But the question still remains: How does this affect bombing and bombarding mechanics?
I know that on a large airfield it can be harder to hit aircraft on the ground, if there are not many aircraft present in the hex, as they are more widely distributed, but is there anything else?

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 47
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 1:26:45 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		Increase your fortifications as previously stated since that would also cover revetments.

There may be one or more larger airfield and then smaller ones for fighters and emergencies.

If I recall correctly, there was a larger airstrip at Guadalcanal plus Fighter One, although this totality was after building up the base.

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(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 48
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 3:39:25 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

I didn't state that this was not the case in real life.
But I have never seen ingame that several airfields inside a hex could be bombed or bombarded, so I do think that this is abstracted into one airfield for game purposes.
I admit that I could be wrong, but I would need evidence for that.
Also the question would still arise how multiple airfields inside a hex are important for WITPAE mechanics?


Here, post #29

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2592612&mpage=1&key=abstraction%2Cairfield�


Okay, Alfred does state that there can be multiple AFs in a single hex, so I am inclined to believe it and admit that I was wrong.
But the question still remains: How does this affect bombing and bombarding mechanics?
I know that on a large airfield it can be harder to hit aircraft on the ground, if there are not many aircraft present in the hex, as they are more widely distributed, but is there anything else?

With the abstraction of the airfield into one entity for calculation of combat results, one must assume that if there were multiple airstrips, the bombers and bombarding vessels could spread their attack across any and all of them. The result would be the same - a chance of damage to any aircraft type present at any of the strips, damage to facilities spread around and damage to runways likewise. Supply dumps or warehouses would also be near enough to the airfields to take some damage.

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(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 49
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 6:40:51 PM   
Maallon


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Status: offline 		Okay, I got it now. Sorry I misunderstood and was confused until now.
Thanks BBfanboy for clearing that up and thanks Yaab for providing the info.

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Post #: 50
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 6:49:19 PM   
Yaab


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Status: offline 		You are willkommen. When King Alfred returns ask him for more details.

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 51
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/18/2021 8:36:26 PM   
geofflambert


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< Message edited by geofflambert -- 11/18/2021 8:38:30 PM >

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Post #: 52
RE: Issue port "0" can the location be sea bo... - 11/19/2021 12:32:21 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
There is an island near Flores (Kalao, 66/110) where you can't off load anything by sea at all, but can land flying boats, and other aircraft once the air strip is 1+. LST opened up the data with the pwhex editor, and it has a "no amphib" setting. That setting seems to be a permanent feature.


No, the amphib setting can be toggled to yes in the editor, which solves the unloading issue.



Ok, so it's not related to places like Norfolk Is changing from bases with ports (0), to airbases with no port at all mid game.

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