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My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/29/2021 9:15:23 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Hi.
I launched a DC ardenne offensive grand campaign against the AI (AI compuation time normal, difficulty Challenging (minor bonus like 10% for combat/movement).

Here the situation after 2 complete days from the start of the offensive if you are interested.
The map is big so i limited the view to the well known Bastogne Area.
Also the picture is in french, but may still be usefull.



2 Panzer divisions (panzer lehr et 2nd Pz SS rushed bastogne from two differents axis, and now are very close de Bastogne. They pierced 35km in 2 days. The city do not look too well defended. No traces of Paratroopers. I'am probably early. Nice.

Heavy Tanks of both those heavy divisions went though brute force following major road, destroying everything in their path. But tons of small (or less small) US units where pushed in the forest and minor road around and now they are a threat to the supply lines.
It is the jobs of the mediocre VolsGrenadiers division (feet and horses) to finish them, and it take a lot of time.

The supply line is the "ravito" pink line, which zig zag to avoid battle zones. Currently due to that the supply is not perfect at the front line.
Also, if i go on rushing with no brakes for my panzer (as it should be), i will have no fuel left in 2 more days. The fuel supply from HQ is far too few, even with paying for fuel with political points.
I'am not sûre what i will do in 2 days, probably trying to rationning the flanks. Maybe i will find tons of spare fuel in Bastogne.

Maybe my supply consumption will slow down, as i have less tanks. Panzer lehr started with 50 Panther for example and now only have 30 !! Good news !
Unfortunately the HQ want to give me new panzer division such as the 9th SS. I do not need it. Everyone want my fuel !!! Let the 9th SS be sent to be refueled in the east front !!

Only 100km to rush. I think i have done the hardest part and although there is still 14 jours for the campaign, it will succeeded. The war.... Will ... go on
Post #: 1
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/29/2021 12:12:25 PM   
comsolut

 

Posts: 484
Joined: 5/30/2004
Status: offline 		Excellent. Thanks for starting a campaign AAR. Very interested in your fuel status going forward.

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 2
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/29/2021 12:37:33 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Yes the fuel situation is very interesting. Note that it is not possible to buy a lot of fuel using PP (political points) because the cost of the card double each use. (i already used it 3 times and the cost is now 40 points).

On the other side, i'am very generous with my artillery use and i do not think i will have supply stock problem. I receive enough supply for full fire all the time. The problem of supply is only distribution.

Gun artillery can fire all the time.
Rocket artillery need a turn of rest between firing to be able to fire Full force because it will not receive enough supply between each turn to keep firing, but only because distribution cap and not because lack of stock.

I really love seeing traffic jams icons appeared in my rear due to logistic transport (Or because the road is shared with tanks...) The supply&Traffic model is excellent !!

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 11/29/2021 12:39:26 PM >

(in reply to comsolut)
Post #: 3
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/29/2021 2:47:39 PM   
Nico165b165


Posts: 419
Joined: 1/28/2007
From: Mons, Belgique
Status: offline 		Interested to know what happens in the 6th panzer army front as well, with the strange deployment of 1 SS PzK ?

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Post #: 4
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/29/2021 3:09:36 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		6th panzer army start in the north, from a starting position that is more in the east than the 5th panzer army.

So relative to the east the 6th is 30 km behind compared to the 5th and just took St Vith.

More in the north, there are weak Volkgrenadiers divisions facing a lot of ennemy troops, i think i'am supposed to be in defensive posture there.
I was a little worried so i sent there the Furher brigade. (The first german renforcement). But the unit is still moving to the front, consuming fuel.....

(in reply to Nico165b165)
Post #: 5
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/29/2021 4:07:49 PM   
Nico165b165


Posts: 419
Joined: 1/28/2007
From: Mons, Belgique
Status: offline 		Saint Vith fell on the 17th ? You are 4 days ahead of schedule, don't worry you're doing great !

Yeah those volksgrenadier in the north against some of the best US infantry divisions won't go far. Some Bulge games don't take the map so far to the north and stop around Monschau.

< Message edited by Nico165b165 -- 11/29/2021 4:09:23 PM >

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Post #: 6
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/29/2021 7:15:17 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nico165b165

Saint Vith fell on the 17th ? You are 4 days ahead of schedule, don't worry you're doing great !

Yeah those volksgrenadier in the north against some of the best US infantry divisions won't go far. Some Bulge games don't take the map so far to the north and stop around Monschau.

Elsenborn Ridge is a tough nut to crack. I'd leave the VG units in defence and divert 12.SS Pz.Div down South. In the stand-alone scenario the Cav.Grp up there can slice through the German lines like a hot knife through butter. That's why I introduced a German equivalent to Road Blocks (Straßensperre).

Klink, Oberst






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(in reply to Nico165b165)
Post #: 7
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/29/2021 8:39:45 PM   
OnWargaming


Posts: 108
Joined: 9/13/2021
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Thanks for the AAR, maybe DC:AO is the first game about this battle where the fuel is a really constrain (just reading the forum, I don't have the game yet).

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 8
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/30/2021 8:56:55 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		So we are the dawn of the 19 december. The 4 days after the beginning of the offensive !!!

The 5th Panzer Army quickly captured the Bastogne Depot, with 11000 points of fuel !! Yes !!
Only elements of already battered ennemy divisions were here, yet it took the whole day (and the night) to clean up the last resistance in the 2 heavy urbans cases of the town.
Now i can restart the offensive, to the east, each division on a different road.



< Message edited by Stelteck -- 11/30/2021 9:19:40 PM >

(in reply to OnWargaming)
Post #: 9
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/30/2021 9:00:09 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		In the north, the 6th Panzer Army was on the offensive after taking St Vith the previous day !! The resistance is stronger than in the south, yet the troops advanced !




(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 10
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/30/2021 9:15:47 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		And now the problem :



My fuel stocks are gone. The units still have fuel but will not be able to refuel for long.
I'am not sûre what to do about it.
I could freeze one panzer army out of Two. I could scrap the heavy tanks and try to move only by foot/light trucks. Where are my cavalry units ?

I also have another issue.
At the moment, the HQ offered me 4 units as renforcement, mostly free !!! 2 Motorized Brigades, and 2 really powerfull Panzer division.
They appear at the eastern border of the map. To move them to the front even in march mode will take from 24 to 48 hours.
They consume tons of fuel. They create traffic jam on vital logistic roads.
Is it a blessing or a curse ? I have no fuel to move them.

I would gladly trade them with infantry divisions. I nearly wanted to disband them and use them as replacement for the divisions already at the front, but it would be gamey ha ha.

It looks like my choice is to do only ONE thing in the following :
- Moving the 5th panzer Army in the south
- Moving the 6th panzer Army in the middle
- Moving the reserves to the front


< Message edited by Stelteck -- 11/30/2021 9:22:53 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 11/30/2021 11:39:48 PM   
comsolut

 

Posts: 484
Joined: 5/30/2004
Status: offline 		Time to start going on foot....

If the fuel is modeled correctly, even with no opposition it is hard to see how all the Panzer divisions could reach the Meuse.

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 12
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/1/2021 11:26:08 AM   
OnWargaming


Posts: 108
Joined: 9/13/2021
From: Italy
Status: offline 		You captured a big depot fuel (that historically never happened) but still have problem to fuel your tank divisions.
For what I know the fuel was available but it has been impossible to send to the front for several reasons.

You can use the the mobile reinforcements in garrison duty to free up less fuel costly units (counterintuitive I know) and trying to move one Panze Army only in what you think is the less defended sector.

Btw: how much fuel is needed every day for a single tank division?

(in reply to comsolut)
Post #: 13
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/1/2021 12:56:13 PM   
nikdav


Posts: 895
Joined: 3/9/2008
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Can you upload a savegame to check the fuel levels ?

Davide

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 14
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/1/2021 4:24:40 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nikdav
Can you upload a savegame to check the fuel levels ?
Davide


Here a save. But i do not complain, it is interesting and fun to have to check and manage the fuel consumption.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nxstod3avleauzt/Wacht%20am%20Rhein_autosave_12.dc4?dl=0

(in reply to nikdav)
Post #: 15
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/1/2021 4:48:23 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OnWargaming
Btw: how much fuel is needed every day for a single tank division?


It is a difficult question. Let's try it.

For 10 AP the fuel consumption of a unit in combat mode, movement is :
1 for a truck
2 for armored transport.
4 for Pz IV
6 for Panther
8 for Tiger II

A round of offensive combat is +50% of this.
A round of defensive combat is -50%.

For 2SS Das Reich which just arrived to the theater, i see (quick calculation mode) :
2 heavy motorized infantry KG with some tanks, i rate them 150 fuel for 10 AP. Total 300
8 motorized infantry units, i rate them 100 fuel. Total 800
1 panther units, i rate it 350.
3 supports tank units, i rate them 250. Total 750
4 supports guns with transport. I rate them 50. Total 200
1 HQ rated 100

So 2500 units of fuel (around) for 10 AP. Full movement with 100 AP a turn, 25000 Fuel.
With some fighting let's say 30000.

If i'am not wrong with my quick calculation, you receive each turn enough fuel from HQ to supply ONE panzer division for high intensity offensive combat.

Of course it is rare that a unit move or fight 100% during a turn, maybe you can support 2 panzer divisions. But i would be surprise for more.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 12/1/2021 5:02:54 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/1/2021 5:18:04 PM   
OnWargaming


Posts: 108
Joined: 9/13/2021
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Thanks for answering to my question.
It is a really nice puzzle to solve, obviously you cannot keep the offensive at this pace.
I read that you can form KG ad hoc, could be a solution for alleviating your fuel situation?

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 17
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/1/2021 5:42:05 PM   
Jagger2002

 

Posts: 674
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline 		Historically, how many halts of panzer divisions due to fuel shortage during Battle of Bulge? I am aware Peiper ran out of fuel but it was because they were cut off and isolated. I don't really know how badly ops were impacted with other divisions.

(in reply to OnWargaming)
Post #: 18
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/3/2021 4:18:03 PM   
carll11


Posts: 791
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline 		what it sounds like is, EVEN if you have the fuel, you're a dead duck.
That doesn't exactly sound , well, overall realistic as this is in the absence of allied air forces at the moment. In the battle, the issue was lack of fuel not necessarily getting it to the troops ( when the weather clears all bets are off).

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Post #: 19
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/4/2021 2:41:46 PM   
Jagger2002

 

Posts: 674
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline
quote:

what it sounds like is, EVEN if you have the fuel, you're a dead duck.


Well, the reality is the roads were atrocious and the weather did not help. Throw in masses of vehicles and troops trying to use those roads and the situation was not good. Gradually, I have realized that the minor and major roads within the Ardennes channel the offensive. Both can carry substantial traffic and supplies. The dirt roads can only sustain small forces. So the offensive is highly dependent on pushing along and clearing the major and minor roads which can support large forces.

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Post #: 20
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/4/2021 2:59:24 PM   
Jagger2002

 

Posts: 674
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline
quote:

In the stand-alone scenario the Cav.Grp up there can slice through the German lines like a hot knife through butter. That's why I introduced a German equivalent to Road Blocks (Straßensperre).
I like those US cavalry recon units. Very good ranged firepower. However they aren't very good in assault except in the open and preferably against highly weakened units, very vulnerable to any sort of ranged AT weapons and even artillery. In the stand alone scenario, I think the Germans have to KG split their battalions and then occupy the west wall fortifications and the town. Move the Division AT guns up there as well. Maybe some artillery support too. Tough holding off that Cav. Grp up there. Doable against the AI but not so sure against a human. And if they break through, they have roads leading behind the German lines which could get ugly fast. Probably helpful to have the Corps commander create some scratch units to back up the Volksgrenadiers in case of a breakthrough.

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 21
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/4/2021 3:42:46 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Dawn of the 20 december. Day 5 the offensive !!!! Ennemy reinforcements, Ennemy reinforcements everywhere from NORTH !!!

At least 4 new ennemy formations, 2 airbornes and 2 heavy infantry have been identified ennemy side, and a lot of pressure built up north all other the line.
My volkgrenadiers are not up to the task and an entire Panzer division have been glued to defend north and i had to ordered a retreat behind the large river north (and blowing bridges). I'am glad it is only the AI here and not an aggressive player.

So the north situation, the 6th panzer army try to defend from north and to advance south, with mixed results.



(in reply to Jagger2002)
Post #: 22
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/4/2021 3:45:59 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		In the south, the 5th panzer army is receiving all the new divisions as renforcement.
The 101th airborne (with the chicken emblem) is on the way on one axe of my offensive unfortunately, but the Panzer Lehr may be able to advance to st Hubert South !!!


(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 23
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/4/2021 3:50:13 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Fuel situation is simple : No more fuel in Stock, but the units still have their own reserves.

For now, the offensive is not slowed, but the 2 heavy panzer divisions and 2 brigades that arrived as renforcement the previous days, and that are currently rushing to Bastogne will be slower to arrive.

For VP point of view, i'am at the "Major Victory" Level. Yeahhh !!! But Antwerp is still far away. I love how the game is optimistic

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 12/4/2021 3:51:47 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/5/2021 3:09:04 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks very much for this AAR.

With the Open Beta v1.00.04 (2 dec) version allowing March mode using half the fuel, I assume this would ease some of the shortages?

It's a good change for poor players like me, but wonder what the good players think about it?

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Post #: 25
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/5/2021 3:25:22 AM   
Jagger2002

 

Posts: 674
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline
quote:

With the Open Beta v1.00.04 (2 dec) version allowing March mode using half the fuel, I assume this would ease some of the shortages?


Half the fuel used is good and it is faster movement. But might have to be careful about traffic congestion over a larger stretch of road? I could see a whole division using march mode and covering long distances which puts a lot of traffic points along the road.

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 26
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/5/2021 5:08:17 PM   
Jagger2002

 

Posts: 674
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline
quote:

With the Open Beta v1.00.04 (2 dec) version allowing March mode using half the fuel, I assume this would ease some of the shortages?


I just did a test. On the first turn of road movement, units move the same distance by road whether in combat mode or march mode and as you stated the fuel cost is 1/2. So yes, use march mode as much as safely possible and you cut your fuel costs in half!!! Of course, if your unit gets hit, it will take higher casualties but worth it to save fuel. March mode should be a big help in stretching out fuel supplies.

< Message edited by Jagger2002 -- 12/5/2021 5:09:49 PM >

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Post #: 27
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/5/2021 6:46:52 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		I think march mode have a readiness cost that make it quite dangerous to use if you want to be able to fight soon.

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Post #: 28
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/5/2021 8:30:32 PM   
Jagger2002

 

Posts: 674
Joined: 5/20/2002
Status: offline
quote:

I think march mode have a readiness cost that make it quite dangerous to use if you want to be able to fight soon.


Yes, just checked. Major combat penalties if attacked while in march mode.

Also I noticed that traffic footprint and readiness cost is doubled. Still probably worth the reduction in fuel costs if march mode is used with proper precautions. I really haven't been using march mode previously but I can also now see a significant benefit to the rapid movement of reserves.

¡ Movement action point cost is halved, but only on roads.
¡ Readiness cost for movement is doubled.
¡ Traffic footprint of movement is doubled.
¡ If a unit finds itself under fire it suffers serious penalties. See the
combat section.
¡ If a unit finds itself under fire it will switch to combat move
mode automatically.


(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 29
RE: My grand Campaign against the AI - 12/6/2021 3:00:41 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks for investigating this.


So at its simplest level, moving reserves up on roads that you know are "safe" is a good option. But, per reality, you can't overuse the roads or throw those units into combat too quick due to readiness penalty.

Also, there might be a chance of long-range enemy arty disrupting their travel, but I assume they'd need LOS, which they wouldn't have if you cleared things out. Just the tip of the iceberg for this great game!

(in reply to Jagger2002)
Post #: 30
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