Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/11/2021 10:38:57 PM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline

Now I know there are issues with the Air component and I did switch from patch 1.01.09 to 1.02.11 from turn 3 if memory serves me which could have effected things but the scale of losses in 2 turns baffles me.

I would like to point out this is a PVE game against the Soviet AI.

But from turn 2 to turn 4 I have lost nearly 800 Axis aircraft !!!.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by tm1 -- 12/11/2021 10:47:40 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/11/2021 10:41:20 PM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline

this turn 3 I think maybe old but might be new patch 2.11

Attachment (1)

(in reply to tm1)

Post #: 2

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/11/2021 10:42:29 PM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline

Turn 4 new patch 2.11

Attachment (1)

(in reply to tm1)

Post #: 3

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/11/2021 10:45:46 PM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline

This my Air doctrine I use for my Air commands I give the AI control of it as I focus on ground combat.

Maybe I have something wrong here that could be fixed, but if level of losses continues i will have no Air force by December or earlier.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to tm1)

Post #: 4

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/11/2021 11:12:06 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

Do you use Automatic Air Assist thingie?

That has international fame to crash your planes happily and merrily by overusing them in general.

(in reply to tm1)

Post #: 5

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/11/2021 11:19:50 PM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Do you use Automatic Air Assist thingie?

That has international fame to crash your planes happily and merrily by overusing them in general.

Yes I am using Automated Air assist, I let the AI handle air operations

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 6

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/11/2021 11:21:30 PM

Tailspintommy

Posts: 43
Joined: 11/12/2021
From: Lincolnshire. UK.
Status: offline

I'm no expert so could be very wrong but given your losses of level bombers and fighter bombers, I'd say you were flying too many unescorted missions and flying too low. Low flying will get you shredded by light flak and long range, unescorted bomber missions will suffer high losses, even in 1941.

_____________________________

"Never fire a shot before coffee"

(in reply to tm1)

Post #: 7

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 12:11:59 AM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline

Can someone be kind enough to show there standard Air doctrine format so I can it from my current one please.

regards

(in reply to Tailspintommy)

Post #: 8

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 12:44:54 AM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

Looks like you used the default AD, that always creates high losses for the Luftwaffe (275-375). If you use my guide on turn one you could be at 100-150 losses (see my AAR, still need to post turn 2 but awaiting turn 3). From then on you have to watch and manage your GS, don�t keep it on, only use it when you need to.

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Tailspintommy)

Post #: 9

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 12:47:09 AM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

Mostly do not keep Ground Support on through the enemy turn!

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 10

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 1:01:39 AM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Looks like you used the default AD, that always creates high losses for the Luftwaffe (275-375). If you use my guide on turn one you could be at 100-150 losses (see my AAR, still need to post turn 2 but awaiting turn 3). From then on you have to watch and manage your GS, don�t keep it on, only use it when you need to.

Is this the game your referring to

1941 GC Zovs (Axis) vs. thedoctorking (Soviet)

cheers

< Message edited by tm1 -- 12/12/2021 1:02:49 AM >

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 11

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 1:02:32 AM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Mostly do not keep Ground Support on through the enemy turn!

yeah I was thinking over turning it as its where I am losing most of my planes.

cheers

< Message edited by tm1 -- 12/12/2021 1:05:08 AM >

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 12

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 1:43:51 AM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

ZoV wrote a guide here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5101678

In the War Room subforum you can find some interesting discussions on a variety of topics!

The developing team also has to work on the Air War, as there are some known problem.

Among the issues is that right now if you have Ground Support on, and there are bombers assigned to the task, and there are also fighters ... but a ground combat happens in the range of the bombers but out of the range of the fighters, your bombers will go. Unescorted.
And presently even shoddy I-153 biplanes will butcher modern and fast Ju88. (Which is discussed in another thread in the War Room, about Luftwaffe vs VVS and turn 1 bombing).

The team is working on these things or have them on the 'to do list', and til now they've worked in the right direction I feel for the Air War, pretty quickly patching issues rising via PvP games.

Also take some time to tinker and experiment in single player. In general one learns more by practicing, than by reading. A good mix of both activities will net long term results!

(in reply to tm1)

Post #: 13

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 3:34:50 AM

jubjub

Posts: 493
Joined: 5/2/2021
Status: offline

Can you provide the CR of your battles with air losses?

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 14

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 10:46:14 AM

cameron88

Posts: 43
Joined: 10/14/2020
Status: offline

The problem is flak losses and reliability are both unrealistic in this game, atleast compared to real life and WITW to name a previous example. You can't feasibily bomb anything, especially with low flying aircraft like JU87 or IL2s without being unrealistically shredded by flak, and even if you don't, you lose 20% of your planes to operational losses.

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 15

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 12:43:58 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

From what Joel has said, it's my understanding that there are several things going on with flak and ops losses. First, the flak and ops losses over the course of a turn, or a week or a month are roughly realistic. However, the air system does not generate "sorties" 1:1 compared to historical sorties, so on a per-sortie basis, they look high. Second, there were some reporting issues that mis-reported flak or ops losses is past versions. Third, there is player action and it's easier than it should be to inadvertently fly into a lot of flak if you don't check and it's also easier than it should be to either forget to turn your GS off or to fly outside the range of your escorts and end up with an interception that causes havoc with your bombers. The sum total of this is that I know Joel, Gary and Pavel are continuing to look at saves and where they see an issue they'll adjust, but I don't think flak and ops are far off from where they should be, barring the last case.

On the last case, we plan to make some UI improvements in the future to make it easier for players to see when they have GS on, when it's out of range of escorts, to remind them at the end of the turn if they want to turn it off, to also make it easier to note potential flak issues and (hopefully, this is apparently a much tougher "feature") to make it easier for the AI to avoid inadvertent flak "traps" as well.

With fully manual air you have a lot of control over all this. With fully automated air, you can still do quite well, but you do have to be careful to pay attention to your AOG status, settings and airfields and depots. You may need to rest them periodically if losses get high, or change their asset/supply priority. You can play through an entire campaign with fully automated air and do fine if your opponent is also using automated air, or playing against the AI but a fully skilled manual air opponent has additional tools at their disposal that will usually allow them to do better in the air war.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to cameron88)

Post #: 16

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 5:42:46 PM

Gunner Garidel

Posts: 14
Joined: 10/21/2021
Status: offline

I have been watching a YT series on WITE2 by Strategy Gaming Dojo. One episode is 'Air War - what I've Learned'. I highly recommend you watch it. It is eye-opening.

_____________________________

Dudley 'Gunner' Garidel
CWO4 USMCR [Ret]
17 February 1969 - 1 August 2004
Semper Fidelis!
Non Sibi Sed Patriae!
Si Vis Pacem Parabellum!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 17

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/12/2021 9:07:18 PM

cameron88

Posts: 43
Joined: 10/14/2020
Status: offline

I just loaded turn 1 in STB for a quick example, i literally have 20+ photos like this i could get, but this is just a normal thing to see that you could easily replicate. You can't possibly tell me this is WAD.. This is the result from ground attacking with JU87s, like i said, they get unrealistically shredded by AA, which if you look at the actual elements, is even more dumb, because apparently 11 dshk guns shot down 33 Stukas in a single attack. With gameplay like this, you CAN NOT, effectively or realistically set up any ground attack missions, not only does it do virtually no damage (As seen in this photo, +0 interdiction), but you lose all your planes in just a couple attacks! Compare this to loading up WITE1, and i could easily ground attack with JU87s, and did it frequently to support my troops and attacks, without these ridiculous losses.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by cameron88 -- 12/12/2021 9:10:48 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 18

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/13/2021 6:46:09 AM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Can you provide the CR of your battles with air losses?

I looked into the saves I had they which were not much help, but i took a look at the losses screens.

Flak is was killer over a 2 week period

Attachment (1)

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 19

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/13/2021 6:47:16 AM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tm1

quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Can you provide the CR of your battles with air losses?

I looked into the saves I had they which were not much help, but i took a look at the losses screens.

Flak is was killer over a 2 week period

As was operational losses

Attachment (1)

(in reply to tm1)

Post #: 20

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/13/2021 9:16:17 AM

KenchiSulla

Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

From what Joel has said, it's my understanding that there are several things going on with flak and ops losses. First, the flak and ops losses over the course of a turn, or a week or a month are roughly realistic. However, the air system does not generate "sorties" 1:1 compared to historical sorties, so on a per-sortie basis, they look high. Second, there were some reporting issues that mis-reported flak or ops losses is past versions. Third, there is player action and it's easier than it should be to inadvertently fly into a lot of flak if you don't check and it's also easier than it should be to either forget to turn your GS off or to fly outside the range of your escorts and end up with an interception that causes havoc with your bombers. The sum total of this is that I know Joel, Gary and Pavel are continuing to look at saves and where they see an issue they'll adjust, but I don't think flak and ops are far off from where they should be, barring the last case.

On the last case, we plan to make some UI improvements in the future to make it easier for players to see when they have GS on, when it's out of range of escorts, to remind them at the end of the turn if they want to turn it off, to also make it easier to note potential flak issues and (hopefully, this is apparently a much tougher "feature") to make it easier for the AI to avoid inadvertent flak "traps" as well.

Regards,

- Erik

Playing 1.02.11

Hi Erik, appreciate your reaction. And I appreciate it is very difficult to accurately model the air war especially. After all, how do you measure it's impact and success? While playing the game (and manually managing the air component) I've seen:

- Tactical bombers being fairly effective to destroy, damage and disrupt soviet formations (GS role) but also being absolutely shredded (repeatable) by flak - even simple '41 rifle divisions with minimum flak support from higher HQ Is the loss vs effect ratio realistic? If they help achieve a breakthrough maybe it is
- Level bombers rather ineffective @ damaging / destroying ground elements. Ok�sh disrupting. Losses perhaps acceptable when flying above 14k, but at default altitude (9k) they get shredded by whatever is shooting @ them - as I am still not sure what is......
- Issues with escort (only patrolling fighters, no escorts)
- Issues with intercepts as that does not seem to work, only in turn 1 and during GS by patrolling fighters

The game is still very enjoyable when you accept these issues (for now I am just playing AI) but I am determined to get Joel his data so the team can improve the (air) game further....

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.�
� Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 21

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/13/2021 9:24:36 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

I expect further tweaks and improvement to the air game over time based on reports and save files.

Specific to flak and ops losses, I think Joel's post here also deserves attention:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=5115580

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)

Post #: 22

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/14/2021 1:27:16 AM

DeletedUser44

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline

Kench, I feel your pain.

The air war is frustrating. The AI control of the air war is even more frustrating.

Case in point - sorties. You have sorties, sort of. But not really. So just ignore them, because they really don't relate to RL sorties.

So now, without sorties as a gauge or benchmark, how are you able to know when OPS are excessive or how to avoid them? Oh wait, it relates to travel(%) and fatigue.

But you can't set AC unit limits on AC travel(%) or fatigue either. ARGH!

Go to the Commander's Report and try to pull up a list of OPS losses per battle. (hint - you can't. closest thing is ability to go to battle location on map, and inspect battles one-by-one... oh the drudgery...)

-----

All I can say is that I think they are aware and are working on it. And so far, they have made noticeable progress on a lot of game features. Was not too long ago there was NO UI Scaling at all.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 23

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/14/2021 2:49:57 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

The Air War is why I will not play a game at all at the moment. Was also major contributing factor of not continuing the one I had. I will wait for the Pavel overhaul.

I would also LOVE to see setting of range setting on planes. If I want my fighter to only go 3 hexes I want to be able to set that. I don't want to have range circles where the fighter is set to only to intercept on another mission a bazillion miles away. This way my fighter is set to 3 hexes and that is it, PERIOD!!!

(in reply to DeletedUser44)

Post #: 24

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/14/2021 6:30:44 AM

KenchiSulla

Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline

Thank you Erik, posted my views in the tech support thread

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.�
� Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 25

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/14/2021 7:43:31 AM

xhoel

Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline

+1 on the range feature.

WitE 1 did a really good job with that and AFAIK became quite liked by players. That would actually allow us to use GS during the enemy turn, since you can tell your air groups how far to engage.

_____________________________

AAR WITW: Gotterdammerung 43-45
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4490035
AAR WITE: A Clash of Titans 41-45
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4488465
WitE 2 Tester and Test Coordinator

(in reply to KenchiSulla)

Post #: 26

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/14/2021 9:33:36 AM

DeletedUser44

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline

In essence, you don't really have traditional AC in WiTE2 right now.

What you really have are flying cats that you try your best to herd - without any real tools to constrain them.

So, they end up going where-ever they want - and eat up all kinds of fuel / ammo / supplies in the process.

It is kind of funny in a weird, sadistic way.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 27

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/14/2021 11:25:10 AM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

In essence, you don't really have traditional AC in WiTE2 right now.

What you really have are flying cats that you try your best to herd - without any real tools to constrain them.

So, they end up going where-ever they want - and eat up all kinds of fuel / ammo / supplies in the process.

It is kind of funny in a weird, sadistic way.

That's signature-worthy!
I approve!

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to DeletedUser44)

Post #: 28

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ? - 12/14/2021 2:01:39 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

In essence, you don't really have traditional AC in WiTE2 right now.

What you really have are flying cats that you try your best to herd - without any real tools to constrain them.

So, they end up going where-ever they want - and eat up all kinds of fuel / ammo / supplies in the process.

It is kind of funny in a weird, sadistic way.