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What if... - 1/3/2022 3:21:17 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		An alternate history. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WUMhgDINDU

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.
Post #: 1
RE: What if... - 1/3/2022 4:03:38 PM   
rommel222

 

Posts: 725
Joined: 9/21/2015
Status: offline 		Greetings Lobster,
Interesting video and thanks for posting.
Might be interesting to see if Matrix World in Flames could model this.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 2
RE: What if... - 1/3/2022 5:24:04 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rommel222

Greetings Lobster,
Interesting video and thanks for posting.
Might be interesting to see if Matrix World in Flames could model this.


Maybe with Days of Decision III.

In Hearts of Iron II, 1936 start, I was able to overthrow Mussolini and join the Allies with a center-left government. I was surprised to see that the names of the various ministers were mostly correct - had the opposition managed not to be hammered by the Fascist Party. The programmers off that game really did a wonderful research job even for remote possibilities.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

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Post #: 3
RE: What if... - 1/4/2022 12:34:50 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		I don't swallow the line of argument that Britain could have gone to war with the US. Bad relations with Japan would be a very minor problem compared to that. In fact I can't think of any circumstance in which Britain would risk it short of massive provocation from the US itself.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 4
RE: What if... - 1/4/2022 1:08:55 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Considering the Roosevelt administration had already given the green light to internment of Germans before the war even started it isn't a stretch to say the U.S. was already going to enter on the side of the European Allies. I suppose this is like pissing into the wind but it would be nice to keep this a historical subject. http://expelledgermans.org/germaninternment.htm

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 5
RE: What if... - 1/4/2022 11:04:23 PM   
AndySfromVA

 

Posts: 130
Joined: 4/4/2009
Status: offline 		It's extremely unlikely that the US would have joined the Axis but it's much more likely that the US could have stayed neutral during WW1. If that had happened Germany could have won WW1 and Hitler and WW2 might never have happened.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 6
RE: What if... - 1/5/2022 12:40:55 AM   
Randomizer


Posts: 1473
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline 		Good reason to avoid General Topics here. On its worst day with its worst adherents, the America First movement would never have brought the USA into another European War on the side of the Berlin-Rome-Tokyo Axis.

This video is not alternate history, it's pro Nazi porn for Third Reich fanboys, whether in or out of the closet.

-C

(in reply to AndySfromVA)
Post #: 7
RE: What if... - 1/5/2022 2:19:11 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AndySfromVA

It's extremely unlikely that the US would have joined the Axis but it's much more likely that the US could have stayed neutral during WW1. If that had happened Germany could have won WW1 and Hitler and WW2 might never have happened.


It's even conceivable that the US would have gone to war against Great Britain, but without joining the Central Powers. Note the War of 1812, where the US did not make an alliance with Napoleon. Britain's total blockade of Germany, and in fact most of Western Europe, was illegal under the Hague Conventions, which did not permit food to be embargoed. The US actually filed a protest against Britain, but it was overlooked after the first round of Germany's unrestricted U-Boat warfare and the sinking of the Lusitania. If the Germans had been more politically sensitive, and the US had attempted to sail a relief convoy to Holland -- well, who knows?

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Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

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Post #: 8
RE: What if... - 1/5/2022 6:47:29 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		It was much more likely that the USSR would have joined Germany in WWII. Then think of the situation for Japan . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 9
RE: What if... - 1/5/2022 8:16:06 PM   
AndySfromVA

 

Posts: 130
Joined: 4/4/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

It was much more likely that the USSR would have joined Germany in WWII. Then think of the situation for Japan . . .


Of course the USSR did join Germany for a while - until Hitler stupidly invaded it. If Germany had not been bogged down on its eastern front it would have had the ability to defend its conquests in Europe until it was ready to use nuclear weapons. Who knows what would have happened then.

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Post #: 10
RE: What if... - 1/5/2022 8:29:45 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The USSR did not fight Germany against any common enemies other than the invasion of Poland. Think of the Red Army being joined with German forces invading Persia on their way to Iraq and then the Suez Canal as well as into the Indian subcontinent . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to AndySfromVA)
Post #: 11
RE: What if... - 1/5/2022 11:12:24 PM   
TheGrayMouser

 

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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The USSR did not fight Germany against any common enemies other than the invasion of Poland. Think of the Red Army being joined with German forces invading Persia on their way to Iraq and then the Suez Canal as well as into the Indian subcontinent . . .


They never would have made it that far, being stopped cold by The Draka out of South Africa long before.

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Post #: 12
RE: What if... - 1/6/2022 2:29:24 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheGrayMouser


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The USSR did not fight Germany against any common enemies other than the invasion of Poland. Think of the Red Army being joined with German forces invading Persia on their way to Iraq and then the Suez Canal as well as into the Indian subcontinent . . .


They never would have made it that far, being stopped cold by The Draka out of South Africa long before.


Since the Draka do not exist, this would never happen.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to TheGrayMouser)
Post #: 13
RE: What if... - 1/6/2022 3:26:58 PM   
TheGrayMouser

 

Posts: 296
Joined: 7/12/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheGrayMouser


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The USSR did not fight Germany against any common enemies other than the invasion of Poland. Think of the Red Army being joined with German forces invading Persia on their way to Iraq and then the Suez Canal as well as into the Indian subcontinent . . .


They never would have made it that far, being stopped cold by The Draka out of South Africa long before.


Since the Draka do not exist, this would never happen.


Alternative history is fantasy, so... no kidding? Also, I was joking about...

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 14
RE: What if... - 1/6/2022 11:53:03 PM   
rommel222

 

Posts: 725
Joined: 9/21/2015
Status: offline 		Greetings The Gray Mouser and RangerJoe,
For Alternative history/fantasy could include Call of Cthlulhu WW 2:

Achtung Cthulhu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXvD1HWQjLo

Shadows of Normandie: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/162351/shadows-over-normandie-achtung-cthulhu


(in reply to TheGrayMouser)
Post #: 15
RE: What if... - 1/8/2022 2:19:44 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		I finally watched the You Tube clip from the OP… and that was an hour of my life I won’t get back. I mean what was the point of that? So in order for events to have unfolded as they did, Churchill, Roosevelt and Hitler (to name the main three) would have had to have had their brains, their characters and personalities removed.

There is too much to comment on but three examples:

- Despite everything we know about Hitler and why World War II happened, apparently we are expected to believe that he would have settled for a post war world in which the German position was little further advanced from what it had been in 1939. The Germans – even in this alternate history – lost millions of men on the Eastern Front. But what does Adolf settle for? No oil reserves of the Caucasus, no self-sufficient Germany, but hey that’s okay – they annexed Luxembourg…….

- Apparently Roosevelt was happy to get into bed with Hitler…. Right. However he wouldn’t agree to provide meaningful assistance to the Germans until the Holocaust (Holocaust lite apparently) had begun….. but he would agree to drop nuclear bombs on a country the USA weren’t even directly fighting……

- In real life the British dropped the Japanese like a stone in the early twenties rather than risk their relationship with the USA. But apparently Churchill was so desperate for Japan to provide a couple of brigades and a small naval squadron to help in Europe (perhaps he forgot Japan’s contribution in WWI) he was happy to cheese off Roosevelt and happily go to war with the US. The Canadians would have been gagging for some of that action right? Of course……

Counterfactuals can be really interesting, and fun, to explore. But where is the interest or fun if central to a counterfactual happening is that no one acts in any way shape or form like they did in real life?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 16
RE: What if... - 1/8/2022 3:06:20 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		I doubt it was made to be serious. The battle lines for the major actors were already drawn before the first shot was fired in 1939. About as accurate as the scenarios I see where Germany has invaded the U.S.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 17
RE: What if... - 1/8/2022 3:18:32 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

I doubt it was made to be serious. The battle lines for the major actors were already drawn before the first shot was fired in 1939. About as accurate as the scenarios I see where Germany has invaded the U.S.
warspite1

Sure, and I can't speak with any authority on the creators intentions. But it seems they went to quite a bit of effort to produce this and there was nothing funny or (intentionally) amusing about it. So I can only assume this was a serious attempt to explore a counterfactual. If so, I'm afraid it was a sorry waste of time and effort.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 18
RE: What if... - 1/8/2022 7:16:13 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		This guy does things like this. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqOF2TYC31xcLV6fIv8SWEg

He's probably made money off it. And for people pursuing a hobby it's never wasted time nor effort. I'm certainly not going to fault anyone doing something they enjoy monetary gain or no fact or fantasy. It was entertaining for me and others. Your milage may vary.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 19
RE: What if... - 1/8/2022 9:00:49 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		Not sure this is not a parody account. In one errr, weird video he says he's got 2,73 euros in the bank A screenshot below from one of his "what if" videos... ROFL




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 1/8/2022 9:01:01 PM >

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

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Post #: 20
RE: What if... - 1/9/2022 5:02:02 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Not sure this is not a parody account. In one errr, weird video he says he's got 2,73 euros in the bank A screenshot below from one of his "what if" videos... ROFL



warspite1

No, I don’t think this is a parody. This appears to be the creator asking “what if” and then presenting what he appears to believe is a plausible counterfactual. ROFL indeed.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 21
RE: What if... - 1/9/2022 1:51:16 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		OMG...

There aren't really anti gravity devices. People can't really fly to other solar systems in a life time or less. There are not enormous space stations orbiting the Earth housing millions of citizens. We have not yet found an intelligent alien species living on other planets. But hey, there they are every day for our entertainment.

The weather guy on a local station gave a ten day forcast. At the end he said, 'Don't take this seriously. We can't forcast with any accuracy beyond three days or less. This if for entertainment purposes only.' I don't see how anyone with any intelligence can take any of this seriously yet here they are. It was a post for entertainment purposes yet here we are.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 1/9/2022 1:56:59 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 22
RE: What if... - 1/9/2022 2:09:39 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
It was a post for entertainment purposes yet here we are.


And you got me entertained, thanks I find his ways funny. Looks like youtube demonetised his videos, looks like he wants his viewers to send him money (sigh, only 2 euros in da bank) to buy what appears to be a ruined house.

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

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Post #: 23
RE: What if... - 1/9/2022 3:32:55 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

OMG...

There aren't really anti gravity devices. People can't really fly to other solar systems in a life time or less. There are not enormous space stations orbiting the Earth housing millions of citizens. We have not yet found an intelligent alien species living on other planets. But hey, there they are every day for our entertainment.

The weather guy on a local station gave a ten day forcast. At the end he said, 'Don't take this seriously. We can't forcast with any accuracy beyond three days or less. This if for entertainment purposes only.' I don't see how anyone with any intelligence can take any of this seriously yet here they are. It was a post for entertainment purposes yet here we are.


There are anti-gravity devices. Some of them are called aircraft while others are called elevators!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 24
RE: What if... - 1/9/2022 7:41:05 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

OMG...

There aren't really anti gravity devices. People can't really fly to other solar systems in a life time or less. There are not enormous space stations orbiting the Earth housing millions of citizens. We have not yet found an intelligent alien species living on other planets. But hey, there they are every day for our entertainment.

The weather guy on a local station gave a ten day forcast. At the end he said, 'Don't take this seriously. We can't forcast with any accuracy beyond three days or less. This if for entertainment purposes only.' I don't see how anyone with any intelligence can take any of this seriously yet here they are. It was a post for entertainment purposes yet here we are.

warspite1

Firstly, if people put their ideas 'out there' e.g. on You Tube, or posts on wargaming forums, then they are setting themselves up to be praised or maybe criticised or a whole range of things in between. That's the deal. You felt sufficiently entertained to post the link. Having wasted an hour of my life, I feel sufficiently embarrased for the creator that I criticised his work.

This guy presumably believes that his counterfactual is sufficiently entertaining to put on You Tube, and it's his best stab at what he believes could have followed on if a single element of WWII panned out differently e.g. Japan declaring war on the Axis, and what flowed from that.

You said "It was a post for entertainment purposes". Yes, and you and others - as you've said - were entertained and you explained why. Great no problem. I wasn't entertained and I explained why. I don't see how anyone with any knowledge of WWII can find this entertaining. It was at best a dull, uninteresting fairy tale because it gave no thought as to how the key characters in WWII behaved, thought and acted, or at worst, a poorly researched piece of claptrap. How is that entertainment? Well that depends on what each person finds entertaining. To me it's a waste of time. But you don't think so, and are clearly happy to watch this ahistorical nonsense that sides FDR with Hitler and WSC declaring war (backed by the Dominions without dissent) on the United States, and that's fine.

This is a history counterfactual that requires an ignorance of history to concoct. What has that got to do with anti-gravity devices and alien species - in other words why are you comparing a counterfactual to science fiction?? and what's with all the ??




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/9/2022 8:14:12 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 25
RE: What if... - 1/9/2022 9:59:42 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

fairy tale



These two words. Cinderella wasn't real. Slitherine/Matrix has a boatload of counterfactual games. It's a huge money making industry.

One of my favorite counterfactual settings is Steampunk. Some of that can be awemsome looking.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lobster -- 1/9/2022 10:06:47 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 26
RE: What if... - 1/10/2022 7:52:00 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

fairy tale



These two words. Cinderella wasn't real. Slitherine/Matrix has a boatload of counterfactual games. It's a huge money making industry.

One of my favorite counterfactual settings is Steampunk. Some of that can be awemsome looking.

warspite1

Nice picture

You’ve brought up Matrix Games, and I think that brilliantly serves to underline what I’ve been saying in my earlier posts. Each of us finds different things interesting and entertaining.

Take WITE2 or WITP-AE. The player of these games will, as a rule, expect a good degree of historical accuracy incorporated into the game. A player of Matrix World In Flames or Strategic Command will be less concerned with this. There are plenty of games in between. These are all games designed for either side to win, though what win means depends on the game and what it sets out to achieve (and the lack of historical rigidity thus employed). None of the approaches taken are right or wrong; they are war games – and it’s just horses for courses in terms of what one considers an acceptable trade-off and what is fun and entertaining to play (ever seen a forum after a new game comes out, and the discussions on what should and shouldn’t be allowed )?

As far as the You Tube video you posted, the situation is similar. There are historical counterfactuals, and there are fairy tales (and various examples in between). What one finds entertaining and interesting will differ from person to person. Personally, when I saw the question, “What if the US had joined the Axis?” I was immediately on notice about what I may expect. However, I was intrigued by what was being suggested and so gave the video a look.

Why should this be lumped in the fairy tale bucket? Well because, as already explained, little to no effort was actually made to understand why what happened in WWII happened. There was no effort taken to understand the personalities involved – not just the leaders, but the general populace. There was no effort made to understand the economic, diplomatic, and geo-political factors in play.

In short, there was no effort made to make this an interesting, thought-provoking piece. It was just a total and utter waste of time and effort. A poster above described it as pro-Nasi porn, but it wasn’t even that (except for perhaps Germany won the space race). Look at what Hitler and Germany settled for getting out of this ‘war’ having lost millions on the Eastern Front.

If we are to expect to believe that Hitler, Churchill and FDR could have acted as they did in the video, then where exactly is the ‘interest’? Where is the ‘entertainment’? I don’t know – but like with Matrix games, its horses for courses and as you said, your mileage may vary.

I am not sure I’ve seen anything Steam Punk (does Sucker Punch count?). If so then I enjoyed that film that seemed to have a sort of WWI-type background at one point. I also very much enjoyed Wonder Woman, set against a WWI background. But do you know what? These were fantasy films. They weren’t written by someone attempting to explore what could have happened in WWI in real life if…..

As for Cinderella, I took my little cruisers to see the live action re-make in 2015. It was a fairy tale. I loved the film every bit as much as my little girls. Make believe people in a make believe world, with make believe creatures doing make believe things – just as a fairy tale should be. But make believe people (I say again, it can’t have been Churchill declaring war on the US or FDR happily dropping Nukes on the Soviets to aid Hitler’s war with the USSR) in a real world setting with make believe economics and doing make believe things? Not so much.

But I’m pleased you got something out of it.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/10/2022 7:56:24 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 27
RE: What if... - 1/10/2022 10:37:27 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		The fairy tales we see today are not the same as they were told. They are very much washed and bleached. This one most of all it seems.
http://thetruthaboutstorys.weebly.com/the-truth-about-sleeping-beauty.html

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 28
RE: What if... - 1/10/2022 11:13:11 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Indeed not. But the original versions probably wouldn’t make for a Disney classic

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 29
RE: What if... - 1/10/2022 3:26:30 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I bring you Cinderella . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i28UEoLXVFQ

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 30
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