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RE: Context Matters - 1/16/2022 5:35:54 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikel

IMO to consider a pin-up in a plane pornographic or the like is just insane, stupid political correctness.

Just go to any beach, anywhere any summer and you will see more "porn".


I wanted to say this already there are always 2 involved...

I mean (some! or even many) women/girls obviously are totally fine w/ it. Or would they work in the pron industry otherwise ? Or as half naked "modells"? What about all these online girls showing themselves half naked? And cam girls and girls that sell their underwear or even bathwater(!)...

And note these are mostly "western" women not from poor countries, so even if they would desperatly need to show themselves as such "sex objects" I do not buy this.

Firstly we still have social security in the west, normally no one would starve (I know in the last years this got worse), secondly they have a chance to find other means of making money then undress or make cam vids etc.? One could understand it if these were all women from Africa or China where they might be forced to do this.

Just some food for thought
(in short I want to say many women "objectify" themselves evidently without anyone forcing them too)



< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/16/2022 5:44:16 PM >

(in reply to Nikel)
Post #: 31
RE: Context Matters - 1/17/2022 8:13:58 AM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikel

IMO to consider a pin-up in a plane pornographic or the like is just insane, stupid political correctness.

Just go to any beach, anywhere any summer and you will see more "porn".


I wanted to say this already there are always 2 involved...

I mean (some! or even many) women/girls obviously are totally fine w/ it. Or would they work in the pron industry otherwise ? Or as half naked "modells"? What about all these online girls showing themselves half naked? And cam girls and girls that sell their underwear or even bathwater(!)...

And note these are mostly "western" women not from poor countries, so even if they would desperatly need to show themselves as such "sex objects" I do not buy this.

Firstly we still have social security in the west, normally no one would starve (I know in the last years this got worse), secondly they have a chance to find other means of making money then undress or make cam vids etc.? One could understand it if these were all women from Africa or China where they might be forced to do this.

Just some food for thought
(in short I want to say many women "objectify" themselves evidently without anyone forcing them too)


Getting money to feed yourself is covered by social security, but getting money to enjoy the good things in life is not. Often the only jobs open to women are the lowest paid ones, and they have to work more than an 8 hour day to feed their family. At least part of this is the system that did not consider women for "men's work" until recently. I am thinking of the construction industry where it was assumed a woman could not handle heavy construction vehicles. Maybe some can't but that applies to men too. Given the chance, women have proven they can do the job diligently and precisely - just like they built airplanes in WWII.
Some women do enjoy making money off their sexuality, but many more only do it because they don't see another choice.

At any rate, the people in charge at Matrix have decided it will be much better to avoid the topic of sex in postings here and I can't say I blame them. Things can get a whole lot more complicated when sex is brought into the environment because there are so many ideas of what is tolerable and what is not.

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Post #: 32
RE: Context Matters - 1/17/2022 9:17:15 AM   
KenchiSulla


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From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		BBfanboy nailed it....



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Post #: 33
RE: Context Matters - 1/17/2022 12:01:50 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		There's been an awful lot of arguing going on about some rather simple things. One forumite in particular just loves making point after point after mind numbing point, but he does that with everything, the subject doesn't matter. The outcome is always the same. He convinces no one. The crux of this matter is about a picture of a milkweed flower. Edmon says it is NSFW. If I put up ten pictures of milkweed flowers on an office wall and that cropped close up were one of them would the long knives come out? I doubt it. Edmon said it was my intent that mattered, not his reaction to it. It's been pointed out as hypocrisy that Matrix/Slitherine uses sex to sell. Everybody does, that's nothing new and it isn't going to change. That hypothetical office with the flower pictures on the wall might have a TV turned on with an ad running talking about bent carrots. I thought about posting a pic of a bent carrot but I don't want this thread locked. Can Edmon do anything about those ads? I hate them, I wish he could. But then I'd be hard pressed to think of an ad that doesn't annoy the heck out of me.
Another angle of objection brings up "family". I know this has happened to everyone or nearly everyone. Remember when you were say 6 years old and you were with a parent when they said to another adult "You're acting like a 6 year old. Grow up!" Remember how it felt? Your parent thought he was insulting the other adult. We tend not to give kids credit for anything. Would I get banned from the forum if I said Santa Claus isn't real? We men tend not to give women credit for anything too.
On the other hand (and I don't mean to offend anyone missing a hand or two) I remember when I was a kid knowing what those giant statues of R.E.Lee and the like were meant to do. I could imagine how they must make "black" people, "people of color" feel. Intimidation. Intent does matter. Back in '68 after MLK, Jr. and RFK were assassinated my parents banned toy guns from the household. We couldn't have so much as a squirt gun. They were right. What are we training our kids to be with all the make believe violence on TV? The incident in Oxford Michigan comes to mind. Despite my parents I took an interest in military history and began (adult?) wargaming and have maintained an interest since. What exactly on Matrix forums is safe for work or our homes for that matter? Why is sex so awful and violence so much fun?

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Post #: 34
RE: Context Matters - 1/17/2022 12:18:38 PM   
geofflambert


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Post #: 35
RE: Context Matters - 1/17/2022 2:47:26 PM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Love that movie

You are bringing up a valid point that I have also observed over the years. For some reason sex is seen as something worse in our current society than violence.
One example that came to my attention was on the website patreon (a site to financially support content creators of all kinds), at some point the site started to ban content creators who were doing something erotic, I am not even talking about models or anything, but just artist who drew lewd art for example. At the same time content creators who created content with sometimes disgusting violence(subjective of course) were spared.
I don't fully understand why it makes sense to ban pictures with half-naked women, but to think it is totally okay to allow pictures where someone was shot in the head.
I also know that steam doesn't allow 18+ lewd games on their store, but they do allow 18+ game with extreme violence.

I guess it is something emotional that we perceive sex and violence differently, but it is only a wild guess on my part.
Maybe allowing such content to be considered normal would only lead to more objectification of woman, maybe it would have the opposite effect. I am not really in a position to tell for certain.
And to be fair, that is not something matrix or any moderator here can be hold accounted for, as this behaviors seem to be universal.



(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 36
RE: Context Matters - 1/17/2022 4:23:26 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

Love that movie

You are bringing up a valid point that I have also observed over the years. For some reason sex is seen as something worse in our current society than violence.
One example that came to my attention was on the website patreon (a site to financially support content creators of all kinds), at some point the site started to ban content creators who were doing something erotic, I am not even talking about models or anything, but just artist who drew lewd art for example. At the same time content creators who created content with sometimes disgusting violence(subjective of course) were spared.
I don't fully understand why it makes sense to ban pictures with half-naked women, but to think it is totally okay to allow pictures where someone was shot in the head.
I also know that steam doesn't allow 18+ lewd games on their store, but they do allow 18+ game with extreme violence.

I guess it is something emotional that we perceive sex and violence differently, but it is only a wild guess on my part.
Maybe allowing such content to be considered normal would only lead to more objectification of woman, maybe it would have the opposite effect. I am not really in a position to tell for certain.
And to be fair, that is not something matrix or any moderator here can be hold accounted for, as this behaviors seem to be universal.


Good points Maallon. I think part of the failure of western society is our focus on "having stuff" and "being entertained" rather than having relationships with family, neighbours, and workmates or schoolmates. Our schools teach the classic topics - reading, writing, arithmetic, and a smattering of art and history. They do not teach communication and body language which are key in learning how to handle disputes without violence. They do not teach how to approach someone you are interested in and make a connection without being crude or overbearing or too timid and obtuse about what your intentions are.

Most of all they do not show our kids how to de-escalate the anger of a situation. Instead they make every situation about "winning" and mocking "losers" which just encourages escalation of violence. A Communications expert taught me some things about this that allow me to put my ego aside and deal with a situation objectively without feeling the need to come out on top. Sometimes that means agreeing to disagree and move on.

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Post #: 37
RE: Context Matters - 1/17/2022 7:56:35 PM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Yeah that's definitely true. We are currently often more focused on materialism and entertainment and less focused on interpersonal relationships.
And how to conduct interpersonal relationship is often something that everybody has to figure out on his/her own and results tend to vary.
I think even though we have such awesome technology nowadays that make communication so easy, we probably also live in an age where never before so many people were so lonely.

What you describe as de-escalation is something I personally had to learn over the years through life experience. (and I am still by no means a master of this art)
But this kind of behavior is often the exact opposite of what mainstream media normally displays.
I don't think censoring this stuff would achieve anything good though, as censoring is only a tool to mitigate symptoms, not to solve the root problem.

I would also agree that teaching our children how to de-escalate a situation and that it is okay to not always come out on top would be a good thing.
At the very least to achieve a more balanced approach to conflict than the currently very one-sided one.
But how exactly to achieve this, I don't know. But I also don't have any education as a teacher.
I know that back in my school days we got some few lessons about conflict solving at some points through our school career, but I also remember that absolutely nobody took them seriously.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 38
RE: Context Matters - 1/18/2022 12:38:13 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		It sounds like your lessons in conflict management came when you were a teenager - too late to really sink in because teenagers spurn most adult attitudes then. Start them in Kindergarten, not just telling them to be nice but showing them how to do it would help a lot.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 39
RE: Context Matters - 1/18/2022 1:43:42 AM   
Tanaka


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Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
There's been an awful lot of arguing going on about some rather simple things. One forumite in particular just loves making point after point after mind numbing point, but he does that with everything, the subject doesn't matter. The outcome is always the same. He convinces no one.


LOL

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Post #: 40
RE: Context Matters - 1/18/2022 10:13:14 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Y'all embarrass me sometimes. More so recently.

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Post #: 41
RE: Context Matters - 1/18/2022 2:23:47 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Y'all embarrass me sometimes. More so recently.


Remember, if it bothers you that you are free to leave. There is nothing forcing you to stay here.

But don't leave just because I posted this. Remember, when a person is with people that they consider to be friends, they will often "let their hair down" and have fun which can bother some people.




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Post #: 42
RE: Context Matters - 1/18/2022 7:46:02 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Please move any further discussion along these lines to this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5129183

Thank you.

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 43
RE: Context Matters - 1/18/2022 9:05:08 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Y'all embarrass me sometimes. More so recently.


Remember, if it bothers you that you are free to leave. There is nothing forcing you to stay here.

But don't leave just because I posted this. Remember, when a person is with people that they consider to be friends, they will often "let their hair down" and have fun which can bother some people.



Snort. That comment was not yet another example of the attention seeking "This is bad and I feel targeted/triggered/whatever, I'm going to leave unless my whining is listened to!1!" sort. It was, simply, a commentary on the prevalence of hypocritical grievances and argumentative fallacies.

As for the "letting their hair down" bit - that would be quaint if it weren't wildly dismissive of actual offenses.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 44
RE: Context Matters - 1/18/2022 10:32:34 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Y'all embarrass me sometimes. More so recently.


Remember, if it bothers you that you are free to leave. There is nothing forcing you to stay here.

But don't leave just because I posted this. Remember, when a person is with people that they consider to be friends, they will often "let their hair down" and have fun which can bother some people.



Snort. That comment was not yet another example of the attention seeking "This is bad and I feel targeted/triggered/whatever, I'm going to leave unless my whining is listened to!1!" sort. It was, simply, a commentary on the prevalence of hypocritical grievances and argumentative fallacies.

As for the "letting their hair down" bit - that would be quaint if it weren't wildly dismissive of actual offenses.


Then there are you are, finding fault when none was meant. If you want something to complain about, you will.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 1/18/2022 10:35:10 PM >

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 45
RE: Context Matters - 1/18/2022 11:02:42 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		That poster should read "... we're all adults - and drunk!"

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 46
RE: Context Matters - 1/18/2022 11:21:00 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

That poster should read "... we're all adults - and drunk!"


How about this one?





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 47
RE: Context Matters - 1/18/2022 11:26:10 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Please move any further discussion along these lines to this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5129183

Thank you.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 48
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